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Wrestle Kingdom 11


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I mean, a Dragon Superplex meant absolutely nothing in that match. Was it sold well? Depends on how you see it, Okada seemed dead when he took the move, which is appropriate, but he was back on offense not long after that.

 

He was back on offense after about two minutes but even then Okada's selling was good enough that it was clear he was still hurt. I think the much more egregious spot was the reverse-rana which was much more of an after-thought with Okada being back in control much sooner. I just don't understand why they can't use smaller, less dangerous spots to achieve transitions or "hope" sequences.

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In the well-regarded AJPW and even NOAH matches, the big spots are tentpoles around which the narrative twists and turns. It's a symbiotic thing, where the ensuing impact on the story of the match makes the spot itself meaningful, while the raw visual impact of the spot hammers home the narrative significance. I didn't get any of that with Okada/Omega.

 

Really I'd say this is true of far more good wrestling than just AJPW/NOAH stuff, but those are the promotions known for building matches around dangerous moves.

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Ratings at this point:

 

***3/4

Goto/Shibata - want to rewatch this one

 

****

KUSHIDA/Himoru - want to rewatch this one too

 

****1/4 - the other two mains

 

I had a fun time watching this show, but I prefer the kind of (or style of) wrestling you guys speak of as well. I think it's definitely a trend, and as Parv mentioned, I do think influences of some of the younger top guys now are worn on their sleeves. I honestly laughed when I saw the ****** thing. I thought it was a joke until I started digging around tonight. I've never been a subscriber of the Observer. I can see I wouldn't agree with Dave much anyway. I almost quit doing star ratings myself, mainly because I don't like to go into matches thinking that way. I never even thought about them much before I started poking around on PWO. But of course, I think some matches are better than others and that's an easy way to share where you think it stands in comparison. I do think that eventually wrestling will trend back in the other direction or style. I feel like it will soon be trendier for matches that revert back to an older style and rely less on the complaints I'm seeing here. Well, soon may be pushing it, so I'll say eventually I can see the bigger matches reverting back to a style that might be more preferable to some with the complaints against this show (or mainly the main event).

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I have NEVER been a guy who thinks that too many movez = bad wrestling. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Nothing wrong with excitement, in my book.

 

I have NEVER been a guy who insists that limb work must lead to something. Ric Flair working the arm on the way to a figure four finish is just fine with me.

 

Throwing a huge spot in the middle of the match instead of saving it for the finish doesn't bother me at all. In classic 5-act plays the climax often came in Act 3.

 

I don't follow modern NJPW closely, but I follow it enough to know that there is history between Shibata and Goto, and between Naito and Tanahashi.

 

You'd think that Wrestle Kingdom 11 would have been right up my alley.

 

I recently started writing up stories for NJPW in 1985 on the Armchair Booking thread. As part of my "research" for that, I have been watching handfuls of mid-80s NJPW matches. Early 1985 wasn't exactly NJPW's hottest period. Choshu was gone, and the UWF invasion hadn't started yet. I want to understand how guys like Sakaguchi and Kimura worked, I want to get a sense of how Hoshino and Arakawa entertained the crowds. I want to see how Andre and Hogan worked with those guys. I want to see how young mask-less Liger (Yamada) worked. I wanna see Mutoh Chono and Hash at the beginning of their runs. I want some Nogami, some Kosugi, some Marc Rocco as Black Cat. I'm not seeking out the all-time great 1980s NJPW matches. I'm looking for mid-card stuff, typical stuff...

 

...and matches like Andre and St. Clair vs. Hoshino and Sakaguchi, or Don Arakawa vs. The Cobra... you've got guys who are maybe past their physical prime, you've got crappy 1980s finishes, you've got maybe one or two big spots in the whole match, you've got a whole lot of very basic basics and a whole lot of character work...

 

...and I'm absolutely fascinated, just drawn in from bell to bell and in rapt attention every second of the way. I'm utterly entertained. It's just a pure joy to watch that stuff.

 

Then we have NJPW in 2017. Figured I should watch that too maybe find some ideas I could steal and apply to my 1985 fantasy booking.

 

Wrestle Kingdom 11: Guys are in their absolute physical prime, everyone looks just great, the production values are amazing, the crowd is hot, everyone is taking real risks, there are both long term and short term stores being told, the execution is generally very crisp, there's stiffness, there's selling, there's high flying and there are so many big moves. Just big move after big move after big move after big move after big move after big move after...

 

... and it's a chore to sit through.

 

Part of it is that I am just getting old. Part of it is that I had a higher personal investment in the '85 stuff because of the Armchair Booking project. But...

 

...I mean. I like big moves. I always have. But 5 plus hours of pretty much non stop big moves just feels like way too much, even to me. It's exhausting. I don't know if the overkill was the whole problem, but WK 11 just didn't do it for me. I was bored. I did not care. I really, honestly, no fooling enjoyed the 1985 mid-card stuff so much more than this.

 

I wasn't expecting that, at all.

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I've come to love the meaningless mid card stuff of the 80s, mostly WWF. I don't know why, maybe because I dislike most modern wrestling and this kind of wrestling doesn't exist anymore. Stuff that bores most fans to tears. Mundane, unpretentious wrestling as far removed from star ratings and greatness as you can get. Two guys pretending to fight in their underwear. Pro wrestling

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I've come to love the meaningless mid card stuff of the 80s, mostly WWF. I don't know why, maybe because I dislike most modern wrestling and this kind of wrestling doesn't exist anymore. Stuff that bores most fans to tears. Mundane, unpretentious wrestling as far removed from star ratings and greatness as you can get. Two guys pretending to fight in their underwear. Pro wrestling

 

Yep. Me, too, apparently.

 

"Unpretentious" is a great way to sum up a big part of what I love about it.

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Omega vs Okada was so brilliant to me for a lot of reasons.

One is that Kenny Omega is out of this world. Coming in everyone knew Kenny was going to try and steal the show so all eyes were on him and he went out there and delivered a performance only he could give. I'll wholly concede that I'm definitely biased here because I love Omega and want to see him do well, but he confirmed what I've been saying to myself for a few years that at his best, I really dont think anyone is better than him. He somehow topped his performance in the Naito match. Minus the limb selling, he takes a lot of the aspects of what made that match something that special and turns it up even more for what is to this point the biggest match of his life. Big thing to me is that I dont think Omega gets enough credit for having great fundamentals and being able to add his own twist to basic things. I thought Omega single handedly made what people have pointed to as a meandering first half actually engaging. Kenny started the match firmly placed as the heel but as the match goes on you feel the crowd start to shift in Kenny's favor. There's something about that guy where even though he can be a cocky, disrespectful, prick, once he starts selling and his facial expressions convey such desperation and desire, that I want to see him win at the end. Its an easy comparison to go for since he had a Terminator themed entrance and gear, but this had a feel similar of that to the end of Terminator 2 where as Kenny is on his knees, mustering up weak shots, and Okada is looking down at him. A lot of people will be turned off by the melodrama like Omega being on his knees and on the verge of tears, but Im someone that loves that kind of stuff so not only does it not hurt the match for me, it takes it to another level. And I can't forget Okada here. Yes, Omega's performance was certainly the more memorable but Okada was great taking everything Omega threw at him, finding a new counter each time for the One Winged Angel, and I absolutely loved the change in demeanor Okada had once Kenny kicked out of the Rainmaker. His facial expressions and body language goes to a I'm really going to have to kill this guy level.

The next thing is I thought it was an incredible thing for them to go 46 minutes and feel like a breeze watching it the two times I did. By the end of my first viewing I was blown away to find out it went above 30 minutes because in the moment I didn't feel it. Not only did it not feel as long as it actually was, it felt like they had even MORE in the tank and it's not because of the pointless first half. It's because they left a lot of stuff on the table and despite being an epically structured match with some of the craziest spots I can ever recall seeing, I still felt like there was more to give which I think is an amazing feat and that goes into my third point.

This was a flawlessly booked match. My main concern heading into this is that on paper neither guy should lose. Okada just solidified himself as the top guy in the company last year and losing again at WK so fast would be odd. Kenny Omega in the span of a year went from being in the Jr division, to being a heavy, pinning Shinsuke Nakamura, kicking AJ Styles out Bullet Club, beating Tanahashi for the IC belt, and winning the G1, being the first North American to do so. That's a lot of stock put in to Omega and to not go all the way with that also felt wrong. Despite Omega losing, this guy was fucking made after this. The amount of Rainmakers he took, even kicking out of one. That puts him in rarified air in terms of how strong he was made to look in defeat. The fact that down the stretch he was the one playing up the sympathetic role, not Okada. You made Omega look like a star and that Okada had to use his finish 4 times to end him for good. Omega looked like a goddamn warrior coming out of this and the best part is, they made you believe in Omega despite the fact that he didn't even hit a single One Winged Angel the entire match. Granted, Omega has such a vast moveset that even though no One Winged Angel was hit, he has so many other tricks up his sleeves, but it leaves that thought in the viewers mind Well, what if Omega hit that move? Would he have won? And that lends itself perfectly to their eventual encounters in the future. I really think you couldn't have had a better end result if you tried.

I've read people say this match had no story and while its not Okada/Tanahashi, its not a blood feud, and there was no clear limb focused story, theres still a story there for me and that comes from caring about Omega's path to get to this point. This is the biggest match of Omega's life. The road Omega took to stardom is far from a conventional one and the fact that he is even in the position he is in right now is pretty insane when you think about it. Hes facing Okada who for the last 5 years has been the most pushed commodity in the company. A win for Omega on this stage meant a win for the guy who bet on himself. The guy who carved his own niche. The guy who through sheer force of will made himself a star. It comes down to the fact that I have an emotional attachment to Omega. If you cant stand the guy, I get it. A lot of the shit he does infuriates people. But l'll always have an admiration for the guy that makes his own way. That's the key to caring about the match or story to me: How much do you care that Omega made it this far and how much do you care if he actually pulls off a career changing win?

For my money this is something that'll be hard for any other NJPW main events in the future from this era to top. Tremendous pace and build, some nutty spots, callbacks, great dramatic action, a convincing finish, excellent booking, and both guys come out better because of this, with one poised to become a phenomenon in the industry. What more could I ask for in a wrestling match?

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Spirited defense Quentin.

 

It's odd because I praised Omega's performance in the match even if I do agree with some of the criticisms others have tossed at him in the last few days. That said, I think what it really comes down to is the fact that I just have no investment in Omega or Okada as characters. I understand their respective arcs and stories pretty well, in the case of Okada especially I've probably seen every major match of his career. But I just don't care about either of them at all. I understand the story as you've laid it out, and I actually do agree that if there is a time for excess the main event at the Tokyo Dome show, in the biggest match of your life IS that time. And yet from my perspective the match was completely flat, devoid of story or meaning, and totally hollow for almost all of the first 15-20 minutes.

 

I said at the time that I thought the match should have started with a big bang to contrast it from the slow build of Naito v. Tanahashi and I stand by that. People can say all they want about the rave review from Meltzer, or the NJPW diehards who loved the match proving that the match worked as was, but the crowd really didn't feel like they were with them at all in comparison to the previous three matches until the big spots started. It absolutely did not have the vibe of Naito v. Tana early, but what's crazy is I don't even think it connected as much as the junior match until they got to the meat of it. They won them over in a big time way down the stretch, but the crowd in the building didn't really seem to bite on the first third or so of the match.

 

This isn't to say that people are wrong to love it, or rate it five stars, or anything like that. Just that I think the front end of the match failed to connect to the rest of the bout or to the crowd itself in the building at the level I would hope.

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Watched the main event because I saw the "best match ever" and that Dave's 6 stars wasn't a typo but a real thing. I've made it all the way through one Okada vs Tanahashi match, but I usually give up midway through. I've never seen a Kenny Omega match.

 

While saying up front I didn't like the match, I could see why people who dig the style would. There was a ton of action, near falls, and some truly incredible highspots. Both guys displayed sensational athleticism and conditioning. It was long as fuck but while not really liking it as a whole, the match didn't really drag because of how much stuff they were doing. There was a spot near the end that I really loved. It was either a rainmaker counter by Omega or Omega was setting up for a rainmaker. Anyway, instead of throwing the clothesline, Omega hit that giant knee to the face and Okada did the old Kawada slumping knockout sell of it. That was great and was my one "Oh fuck yeah" moment of the entire match.

 

I don't want to be all old man yelling at the cloud, but I suppose I can't help it. In a lot of ways this match served as a good reminder why I don't follow modern New Japan. I'll very rarely watch one of these hugely pimped matches and often find myself thinking "Well that was something. I don't want to watch the other match on this show everyone liked. I'm gonna watch this Santo match instead" and then I forget about modern New Japan again.

 

There was lots of great stuff, but none of it really seemed to matter and that was reflective in the fact that the crowd response to the match. (Pausing momentum briefly, I see Dylan literally just made a post about the crowd. Damnit. I'll soldier through my point nonetheless). Other than the big holy shit spots, the crowd was pretty damn quiet for the first...like 35 minutes of the match. I'm not going to say they were shitting on the match because they were right there to pop big for every big spot. Before sitting back down to politely watch. They came alive and were nuts for the finishing stretch. But it didn't have that buzz you get from great crowds. Seems like a weird nitpick on the match granted, but for something getting "Greatest match of all time" praise I'd want the crowd to at least be able to match the sustained heat of something like Rock n Roll Express vs Dirty White Boys. :)

 

I agree about the first half of the match being mostly filler. Nothing was particularly memorable which is a shame because its not like they were pressed for time. "Limb work!" is a cliche in some ways for fans like me and there are plenty of ways to build a match without working over a leg. But I do wish they had chosen something. I'd be less bothered by mediocre arm work thats blown off later in the match than something like Omega selling the ddt on the outside as a knockout blow 7 minutes into a 50 minute long match.

 

The amount of counters is ridiculous. I know that's part of the style and so its an unfair criticism. But as someone who doesn't watch this stuff all the time, you can't help but notice it. On the one hand, it makes sense. Every move requires a ton of setup so there's more opportunities for counters. But I hate that. For example, Okada can't just clothesline a guy. He has to casually (SO FUCKING CASUALLY*) apply the rear waist-lock, grab an arm and dosey-doe his opponent into the clothesline. Instead of knocking your head off with an out of nowhere clothesline, Okada has created this convoluted move that gives his opponent a elevated number of counter opportunities. From a "kayfabe/wrestling as sport" perspective, it was really dumb of Okada to focus all of his time perfecting that as his signature move instead of a traditional Stan Hansen style "it can come from anywhere" lariat. Same thing with Omega's angel wing whatever finisher that he couldn't execute because he couldn't sufficiently weaken Okada enough to execute the 5 different steps it takes to even get his opponent into position for his finisher. That shit is ridiculous. It isn't specific to this match or these wrestlers. Its the modern style at large.

 

*Just had to separate this. WTF is up with Okada's rainmaker attempts? Is it that casual all the time? Every attempt looked like it was in slow motion. I've got no problem with a clothesline finish.

 

I thought the dragon suplex off the top was one of the dumbest spots ever. Another modern wrestling trope I hate is the assisted top rope move that its just a long balancing act before they do a back flip together or whatever. And people call Lucha choreographed. I know, its ridiculous. Anyway, that was bad enough and then the spot itself was just incredibly reckless and stupid. I know wrestling is dangerous and this is NJ's biggest match of the year and you have to do memorable shit. But come the fuck on. To make it even more ridiculous, the commentator literally said "Years from now when he's having neck fusion surgery, he'll think of this match." Which I couldn't believe. What a horrible comment on so many levels. I could write a book on everything wrong with that comment. Just shameful. Anyway, too make matters worse, not only did the dragon suplex not play into the finish on any level it was only there to serve as a nearfall in the moment (making the neck fusion comment all the worse) as Okada was quickly back on offense. Just as I was thinking "Oh, so this is like a long and terrible version of Kanemoto vs El Samurai from 97 and that was their take on the meaningless/irresponsibly dangerous reverse top rope rana," Omega hit the standing reverse rana and I laughed and laughed.

 

Anyway. Sorry to shit on this match right after Quentin's great post praising the match which followed up everyone else shitting on it. I just finished it and wanted to get my thoughts out there since it is getting such praise in some corners. I certainly don't think it is the best match ever or even really a great match. But that's almost entirely due to personal bias. I can see why people who like this style would love this match. I don't regret watching it, because its not like I actively hated it like something like Shane vs Brock. But I couldn't possibly watch wrestling like this all the time. One or two matches every few years is more than enough. But really, if that's my last Okada match, I'm cool with that.

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I relate to Dylan's statement about not having any investment in the characters. It's obvious that a match lacking a clear structure or really any sustained periods of control, but with a ton of big moves, counters and near-falls is going to be much more effective if you have some kind of stake in seeing one or the other participant win the match. It's a rollercoaster ride. Absent that investment, I really only had my sense of wrestling aesthetics to go by, and they didn't judge that match kindly at all. That raises the question of how valid an aesthetic sensibility that finds itself so at odds with what works for people enjoying wrestling 'properly' is. I don't think I've given that enough thought to answer it yet, but to say that I don't think it's all that rare in other narrative forms to become engrossed a story that, viewing with detached eyes, you recognise is poorly (or perhaps manipulatively) told, but still enjoy due to your investment in the characters.

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I've come to love the meaningless mid card stuff of the 80s, mostly WWF. I don't know why, maybe because I dislike most modern wrestling and this kind of wrestling doesn't exist anymore. Stuff that bores most fans to tears. Mundane, unpretentious wrestling as far removed from star ratings and greatness as you can get. Two guys pretending to fight in their underwear. Pro wrestling

Same here.

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Big thing to me is that I dont think Omega gets enough credit for having great fundamentals and being able to add his own twist to basic things.

I don't know if you read my review, but I honestly took the opposite away from this match. I thought Omega just isn't good enough to carry a match like this. Exact words:

 

But between these moments these guys don't seem to know what to do to fill the time, it's just spot after spot, and after a while you start to wonder why on earth they are going to random hurricanranas or obvious setup charge the corner spots. It's because they don't know how to fill the time any other way.

 

One of jdw's standard criticisms of Ric Flair is that in his longer matches he has *stuff to do*. But in a way, that criticism is taking for granted the fact that Ric is a world-class wrestler who just knows how to fill that time. It takes someone of that level to go as long as this and keep a match interesting. I honestly don't think either of these guys are on the level of a Terry Taylor, let alone a Ric Flair or a Steamboat or a Jumbo or Funk or Bockwinkel. They just don't seem to have the ring savvy or the gravitas required to pull this off.

 

I mean god, try a stomp, a headlock, a bodyslam, a basic transitional move. Not every single damn thing has to be a tornado DDT or whatever the fuck. I just don't get it. Spots for just no rhyme or reason. It leads to a situation in which it seldom feels like anyone has any real control in the match. So much running, but why?

I guess my biggest questions to you are these:

 

- when you say "fundamentals", what do you mean by that?

- when does Omega even do a "basic" spot?

 

I am not at all trying to be a dick when I say this but Omega came across to me as being a guy who doesn't even have a grasp of the fundamentals. Timing, pacing, when to feed, all of that. I thought parts of the match were all over the place.

 

It would be interesting to see your answers to these things. Just want to understand more where you are coming from.

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When I said fundamentals I'm more referring to your typical "feeling out" process things. The things a lot of people view as inconsequential to a wrestling match. The chain wrestling, running the ropes, grabbing a headlock, etc. To me he has super unique movements and his personality shines through so much that even doing those little things I think he keeps it very engaging.

 

To answer your question of when he does a basic move, he goes for an elbow drop in the match, he misses, then Okada attempts a senton. The reason why I point that out is it isn't just an elbow drop, he does a Mutoh style elbow drop with the same snap and theatrics. Some may view it as cosplay but being able to imitate a Mutoh elbow so well when only Low Ki is the other one to be able to do so is impressive to me. He adds personality to what otherwise is a forgettable sequence.

 

Outside of this particular match, in the last two nights of the most recent G1, he started doing a regular neckbreaker. Again, pretty basic stuff, but the added twist is he's doing the Rick Rude hip swivel before he drops the dude down. The reason why that's impressive is that other than Omega himself, Rick Rude is one of only two other North Americans to make it to a G1 final so that's a neat little nod.

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I guess my frustration is ... why can't he just do a basic elbow drop or a stomp or a knee drop? Why is it an elbow drop with a Muta twist?

 

When I teach students how to write, my first rule is this: "never use a fancy word where a simpler alternative would do". AKA do not highlight the word press SHIFT and F7 and pick a word that looks more impressive than the one you wanted to use, it tends not to make you look more clever but less clever.

 

I know long-time wrestling writer John Lister has the same views on this because he was strongly associated with the Plain English Campaign, here he is providing a 20-year history of it in 1999: http://www.johnlisterwriting.com/pdfs/issue42.pdf

 

As it is with English grammar, so it is with wrestling grammar. And to me Kenny Omega is the wrestling equivalent of a writer who habitually uses fancy words when he could use plainer ones. Not only that, Omega is worse, he's sometimes guilty of malapropism, which is when you use a word incorrectly because you don't quite know its meaning.

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I can't take any argument against the main event when the person says, "the heat wasn't anything special"

 

Tiger the Dark vs. ACH - ***

Young Bucks vs. RPG Vice - ***1/2

NEVER Six-Man - ***3/4

O'Reilly vs. Cole - ***1/2

GOD vs. CHAOS vs. GBH - ***1/4

KUSHIDA vs. Takahashi - ****1/2

Shibata vs. Goto - ****1/2

Tanahashi vs. Naito - ****3/4

Okada vs. Omega - *****

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Case, did you think the main had more heat than Goto / Shibata? Just curious.

 

For my part, overall, I thought it was quite interesting to see four big matches all in a row and all worked quite differently.

 

I'm not sure that I could make any blanket statements about "the style" because I saw four different styles in four matches.

 

I'd be very interested to get Elliott's longer takes on Shibata / Goto, because that was the standout match for me. I've seen others talk up Tanahashi / Naito as the stand out match. I was persuaded to watch ALL FOUR of them by Chad, and I'm glad I did. I'd recommend Elliott and others do the same. It was rewarding overall, even though I had things I actively disliked about two of them.

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I can't take any argument against the main event when the person says, "the heat wasn't anything special"

 

Tiger the Dark vs. ACH - ***

Young Bucks vs. RPG Vice - ***1/2

NEVER Six-Man - ***3/4

O'Reilly vs. Cole - ***1/2

GOD vs. CHAOS vs. GBH - ***1/4

KUSHIDA vs. Takahashi - ****1/2

Shibata vs. Goto - ****1/2

Tanahashi vs. Naito - ****3/4

Okada vs. Omega - *****

For the first third of the match it really wasn't and that was noted by even hardcore NJPW fans watching in real time

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I think the heat was outstanding during the finishing stretch. Insane off the charts heat for the finishing run. But there were loooooong stretches in the match where the crowd was sitting and waiting for the next huge spot. And in a match that long it really added up and was really noticeable. I kept laughing to myself for what seemed like an eternity "Well, Meltzer may think this is 6 stars, but no one there live does." I scrapped that joke during the finishing stretch because there's no doubt they were into it then.

 

I'll give Goto vs Shibata a shot later today. I can't recall having seen them before.

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One thing I want to ask, just to play devil's advocate for a second.

 

- Can anyone tell me WITHOUT revisiting the match, just from memory, what happens in the first twenty minutes of Bockwinkel vs. Hennig?

 

I'm a ringer and all and I'm not 100% sure on the timing but it's a short feeling out process followed by Bockwinkel working the headlock and them moving in and out of it, then Hennig finally shifting the advantage by getting the arm and them working in and out of it, and eventually Bockwinkel gets a leg (after trying a few times) to halt the armwork and takeover.

 

Again I'm not totally sure how the timing of that works out but it's awesome. They struggled. They sold. They had progression within the bases that they were using. Persistence paid off. Great stuff.

 

Elliott thought I should see Omega/Okada, but I'm sure my reaction to that would be just as predictable as Meltzer's and no one needs that. If I'm going to spend 45 minutes on something I'm just taking the extra fifteen and watching Hennig vs Bock again because I haven't seen it in a couple of years.

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I'd request his take on Goto / Shibata too.

 

I will offer that Hase / Misawa 2000 review in return! ;)

 

A match with two of your favorite wrestlers? Come on. That's BS.

 

I'll watch Goto/Shibata if you watch the Trevor Lee vs John Skyler match Chad sent me yesterday, but you couldn't pay me to watch Omega vs Okada right now.

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