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rzombie1988

Any other longterm fans starting to feel alienated by the current fanbase?

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Bryan was already an amazing performer and in his retirement he's found appreciation for Jerry Lawler punches and Blue Panther mat work. I shouldn't want him to come back, but wow he would be interesting to watch.

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Bryan was already an amazing performer and in his retirement he's found appreciation for Jerry Lawler punches and Blue Panther mat work. I shouldn't want him to come back, but wow he would be interesting to watch.

 

Bryan also loves popping the crowd so I wouldn't put past him doing similar high risk stuff to what he was doing in WWE. He's one of those guys that even though "gets it", he also doesn't know any better. He's even said it himself a couple of times.

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What is even the best available footage of worked punches, screen quality wise? People can swoon over Florida or Mid-South Coliseum related things as much as they want, but if you can't replicate it because of modern HDTV standards and giant TV screens it's pretty pointless.

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I really hate the idea that liking one kind of wrestling is more evolved than liking another. It's all equally stupid, just in different ways.

 

This.

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I really hate the idea that liking one kind of wrestling is more evolved than liking another. It's all equally stupid, just in different ways.

 

This.

 

 

I completely agree. That is such an elitist line of thinking and, unfortunately, I have seen it occasionally pop up in the PWO/WKO circles.

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What is even the best available footage of worked punches, screen quality wise? People can swoon over Florida or Mid-South Coliseum related things as much as they want, but if you can't replicate it because of modern HDTV standards and giant TV screens it's pretty pointless.

 

I dunno, I just watched Tarzan Goto throw some amazing punches filmed by good old high quality Samurai TV standards. He may have been hitting guys for real, but you can never know! It's part of the magic.

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1.) I was kidding to make the bad Evolution joke.
2.) I personally see both punches and 450 splashes as generally value-neutral tools and it's about how they're used, so this brand of elitism wouldn't be mine in the first place (were I to admit to such a thing), even if I do probably find effective minimalism more impressive than equally effective excessiveness.
3.) That said, the idea that one form or element of a medium is superior than another is a basic tenet of art criticism and you'd see it as commonplace on a board that thoughtfully covers music or movies or literature. Just because we cover a form of it which is socially considered low (and a lot of us seem to be happily self-deprecating about it) and we do want everyone to be able to enjoy it in their own way independent of our efforts at criticism doesn't mean we can't think and espouse such opinions so long as we're consistent and back up our arguments and aren't assholes about it. We get out what we put in to it. So many people here make honest attempts at analysis and their efforts help to elevate an art form that others (even some here) would be far happier looking at as disposable and inane. We get out what we put in.

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I really hate the idea that liking one kind of wrestling is more evolved than liking another. It's all equally stupid, just in different ways.

Sometimes it's just as fun to watch a guy dressed as a boar wrestle a guy dressed as a frog as it is to watch some super serious classic.

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Maybe I am being a Dragon apologist, but I kind of read it as "tastes change" and saw him using evolve as more of a subjective, value neutral term. At worst it seemed like he was indicating that the more you watch the more you will start to appreciate different things and discover new things to value. That is all stuff I agree with.

 

The difference between wrestling and those other art forms is that they have broader, if not also much longer, histories of being considered art. What is generally regarded as superior is not a matter of objective value, but of negotiation over time in a variety of spheres. Critics, taste makers, public discourse, sales, profit, history, politics... lots went into the stratification of superior and inferior in various spheres of art and it is always being negotiated, questioned, and evolving (sometimes circularly). Wrestling has some of that of course, but it doesn't compare to music or film or painting or literature.

 

I would say that right now we are in the midst of a real spike period of active critical interest, but the internet creates so much noise, so many people get a public say. It isn't that those opinions don't matter, it just makes it a little harder to sift through. I agree that this is a space to critically engage wrestling as art, and so long as no one is being a dick we can remain - think a very valuable and focused - part in the process of of the aforementioned negotiations. Most people here are pretty good at engaging like an adult. Some aren't.

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Pro-wrestling isn't an art form.

 

Yeah, I know, I've said it a zillion times on this board and took shit every single time for it. But there it is.

 

It's not, never was, never will be. Unless we reach the point of the Mike Oles Prophecy accomplishing itself. Which is "Pro-wrestling as figure-skating", for those know are too young to remember Mike Oles. Actually we're getting closer and closer to that point. And then again, figure-skating is not art either.

 

Pro-wrestling is a fun carnival form of entertainment with its own self-sufficient value. Pretending to "elevate" it through critical discussions (which mostly consists of opinions and taste, really, let's be honest now) is complete jerkofferie, really. Love it for what it is. Discuss it for what it is. But elitism is pro-wrestling is indeed ridiculous, especially when it goes down to "oh, this guy is part of our little club of *WE* who know what good work is, awesome are we not ?"

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Pro-wrestling isn't an art form.

 

Yeah, I know, I've said it a zillion times on this board and took shit every single time for it. But there it is.

 

It's not, never was, never will be. Unless we reach the point of the Mike Oles Prophecy accomplishing itself. Which is "Pro-wrestling as figure-skating", for those know are too young to remember Mike Oles. Actually we're getting closer and closer to that point. And then again, figure-skating is not art either.

 

Pro-wrestling is a fun carnival form of entertainment with its own self-sufficient value. Pretending to "elevate" it through critical discussions (which mostly consists of opinions and taste, really, let's be honest now) is complete jerkofferie, really. Love it for what it is. Discuss it for what it is. But elitism is pro-wrestling is indeed ridiculous, especially when it goes down to "oh, this guy is part of our little club of *WE* who know what good work is, awesome are we not ?"

 

Always happy to disagree with you utterly and completely, Jerome. But hey, at least we can be civil about it, for the most part.

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I am. For the most part. ;)

 

But hey, after almost 20 years of writing bullshit on the Internet about pro-fucking-wrestling, in a borrowed language to boot (which has been a great way to learn and practice, although maybe that's why my English isn't always the most elegant and why I'm better at slang than I am at some of the more usual vocabulary (my cross to bear)), I've reached the point of only looking for enjoyment and having fun with this ridiculous shit I've been watching all my life since I've been 13 or so. I may think some of the matches out there are dumb as fuck or boring to death, but I'm certainly not gonna judge anyone because, hell, they love the shit I don't care about and think what I consider great ain't worth their time (yeah, I'm still a Raven fan). I still have my scale of judging what's good for me, but whatever works for each of us, really.

 

That being said, I'm perfectly happy to come off as personable as Tully Blanchard in 87 to those who take things way too seriously… ;)

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Pro-wrestling isn't an art form.

 

Yeah, I know, I've said it a zillion times on this board and took shit every single time for it. But there it is.

 

It's not, never was, never will be. Unless we reach the point of the Mike Oles Prophecy accomplishing itself. Which is "Pro-wrestling as figure-skating", for those know are too young to remember Mike Oles. Actually we're getting closer and closer to that point. And then again, figure-skating is not art either.

 

Pro-wrestling is a fun carnival form of entertainment with its own self-sufficient value. Pretending to "elevate" it through critical discussions (which mostly consists of opinions and taste, really, let's be honest now) is complete jerkofferie, really. Love it for what it is. Discuss it for what it is. But elitism is pro-wrestling is indeed ridiculous, especially when it goes down to "oh, this guy is part of our little club of *WE* who know what good work is, awesome are we not ?"

I just don't see "fun carnival form of entertainment" and "art" as mutually exclusive. All "art" forms emerge from something else - functionality or entertainment primarily.

 

At the end of the day it is a distinction that matters very little. You are spot on, first and foremost, it should be about what you like and enjoying wrestling. All the other stuff I mentioned is ultimately a byproduct of discussion and of tastes gaining influence. It happens regardless of if we call it art and it shouldn't affect what people enjoy or how they enjoy wrestling.

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I'll agree that it matters more in how we interact with one another and in creating discussions that we have than in any sort of universal truth or anything like that.

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Wrestling isn't like expensive cheese. There is no refined palette. I do think over time, though, if you watch a lot of wrestling, it's easy to become numb to increasingly impressive wrestling moves and gain a higher appreciation for basics that maybe you took for granted early on in your fandom. But that's something different than superiority. I think it's more trying to find the commonalities in wrestling we liked in the past and wrestling we like now. Usually, the links are in the fundamentals.

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You mean, like a 10 mn gonzo clip on Pornhub ?

 

Anyway, this :

 

At the end of the day it is a distinction that matters very little.

 

Indeed.

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You mean, like a 10 mn gonzo clip on Pornhub ?

 

 

 

 

I bet Brad Maddox would consider that art. (seewhatIdidthere)

 

 

I mean, why not. Art is like the most subjective thing there is. Too many people dismiss something they don't like or don't "get" as not having any artistic value. As a longtime video game fan, I've heard that argument all the time from people who had little to no understanding of what they were talking about and were just being dismissive of something they felt was beneath them.

 

 

Wrestling at its core is performance art, whether it's a Santino comedy match, an indy spotfest, or a NJPW six star classic. No one would suggest movies aren't art just because there's tons of shitty B/C level films made every year.

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I'd think it's a means to a different end that's far more interesting. That's what you're undercutting in dismissing it. We can't even have that other conversation with you outright dismissing this one basically.

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Most (not all) arguments I've seen that it's not art have an inherent class bias.

I would buy this. Most I have seen at least assume or imply a classist understanding of what art is. That isn't to say the people making them classist, of course, but the argument - often, at least - seems founded on those principles.

 

It isn't really a question of "is wrestling art" as much as it is "what is art". Both questions have been discussed before. The first one doesn't matter much to me because it doesn't change my behavior and the industry itself isn't at some tipping point of broader acceptance as an art form. The question of "is something art" mostly just provides validation within whatever context it is affirmed (and at best helps that form gain momentum) and in rare cases - when accepted broadly - can alter the material or consumer culture of the medium/form. Wrestling isn't at the point where some sort of definition debate might have material consequence, change how it is consumed or anything like that (at least in my opinion). The second (and I guess the first to a lesser extent) at least can provide insight into the perspective of the person providing definition.

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I'd think it's a means to a different end that's far more interesting.

Not to me. I don't give a shit about pro-wrestling being an artform. I've loved pro-wrestling pretty much my whole life and spent 20 years writing about it. It doesn't have to be an ART to be great when it's great.

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The question of "is something art" mostly just provides validation within whatever context it is affirmed (and at best helps that form gain momentum) and in rare cases - when accepted broadly - can alter the material or consumer culture of the medium/form.

 

I made a long, boring post that I basically erased in which I actually talked about that fact, the whole validation stuff. To me that's exactly what I get out of the neverending argument (from hardcore pro-wrestling fans only) that pro-wrestling is an art. It's simply seeking social validation, or actually simply self-social validation to feel justified about spending sooo much time on that hobby. Because if it's an Art (with the capital A), then you see, it's much more respectable and intellectual and shit. When in fact, it's not. I mean really. It's not. And it's no big deal. I sure don't give a shit about seeking validation because I've spent the last 20 years writing stuff about pro-wrestling. I don't need pro-wrestling to be ART to love (and hate) it. It's great for what it is when it is great. There's plenty of stuff to get out of it as it is. No need to try to stuff pro-wrestling in the Temple of Arts. It doesn't belong there. But hey, if people want to convince themselves otherwise, fine. Doesn't matter.

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