Any other longterm fans starting to feel alienated by the current fanbase?

[NintendoLogic]

That looks kind of like CMLL's En Busca de un Idolo.

[War is Raw]

Pro wrestling is a genre all by itself. Any comparison or analogy is not really 100%- and that's ok.

It's a business, craft, entertainment, TV show, like figure skating, like theater, like action movies, like vaudeville, an over-the-top combat sports simulation, and it is performance art. It has carnival and circus roots, and a shoot background. Yes, I do believe it is an art form, and it you don't it is because of class tastes.

But it's no longer "realistic". Hasn't been that way for 100 years? Or at least since Gorgeous George + Buddy Rogers- who were called "entertainers", not "wrestlers" by Lou Thesz? 

Everyone knows what a real fight looks like thanks to MMA and street brawls online. Kayfabe has been dead since sometime in the late 1980s-1990s? The genie is out of the bottle. There is no turning back. Even in Japan, after it was exposed, they lost the mainstream audience. That's life.The Wrestlingclassics old dudes sound real bad longing for a pure time where "wrestling was real" which never truly existed. All are phonies because they would be bored watch 1915 matches.

As far as being presented as "sports-like", we have NJPW which is presented as a sport but has unrealistic moves (but so did Harley Race, Jerry Lawler, and Ric Flair). 

Yes, American wrestling is like lucha libre without the masks and culture. The workers act like superheroes with the no-selling and ballet moves. They don't believe "less is more". Yup, things change. {shrug}

BTW, I had never heard of Jordan or however her name is spelled, before Cornette. Same with the penis guy. I checked out Omega after he attacked him years ago because I wanted to see how bad Kenny was. Turns out I became a big fan. So once again, he gives people he hates free PR.

I really don't see what the big knock is with Omega and The Young Bucks when they pretty much wrestle the similar styles as Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Blue Blazer, Shawn Michaels, AJ, luchas, etc. If it it solely because they do video game stuff or wrestle kids...come on. Especially since Cornette was a Memphis fan and of carny stuff with bears and mummies.

 

[El-P]

35 minutes ago, War is Raw said:

Yes, I do believe it is an art form, and it you don't it is because of class tastes.

Please, no. You can give whatever argument in favor of "pro-wrestling is an art", but accusing anyone who doesn't think it is do it because of "class taste" is a really bad sophism and judgement of intent. I've been a fan for 30 years. I don't consider it an art-form, for the various reasons I already ranted above. Not everything as to be an art-form to be interesting or even great.

39 minutes ago, War is Raw said:

I really don't see what the big knock is with Omega and The Young Bucks when they pretty much wrestle the similar styles as Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Blue Blazer, Shawn Michaels, AJ, luchas, etc. If it it solely because they do video game stuff or wrestle kids...come on. Especially since Cornette was a Memphis fan and of carny stuff with bears and mummies.

Totally agree. I'm sure tons of old timers said the same shit about the MX in the early 80's than old-timers say about the Bucks today. Work too fast, too much comedy, do too much spots, unrealistic...

Well, Omega is actually is one one the best details guy ever and putting him in the same sentence as Jeff hardy and Shawn Micheals is actually an insult to the guy, really... 

[C.S.]

Is wrestling an art form? Yes and no.

Movies are widely considered an art form. But would you put all movies in that category? No, of course not.

Ditto for books.

Video games are debated as an art form, but the same question applies.

The same is true for wrestling. Are all wrestlers artists and are all matches art? No. But a few are.

That is basically going to be the case for any form of entertainment.

[Log]

I think that wrestling on any level needs to simply focus on storytelling.  That's it.  It can be shootstyle, spotty, hardcore, WWE, AEW, whatever, but they need to tell a story.  It doesn't have to be a complicated story, it just needs to make sense.  I really think that if more promotions broke it down to that, they'd be better off.  That's what hooks people.  If the in-ring is lacking, a compelling story can still draw you in.  If the in-ring is awesome, a compelling story can make it the most memorable thing ever.  Everything you look back on fondly in wrestling has involved a solid story.  Whether it's the Mega-Powers exploding or the Kikuchi and Kobashi/Can-Ams match, it's had a story.  

Not to go all Tyrion in the last episode of Game of Thrones, but people are drawn to stories.  Doesn't matter age, race, gender, anything.  Everyone loves a good story.  So, just do that.

[Matt D]

And selling is the language pro wrestling tells a story with. 

[Log]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

And selling is the language pro wrestling tells a story with. 

I agree.  For a story to work, the beats of it need to be meaningful.  Without selling, the beats of a match are not as meaningful.  Selling not just in the ring, either.  Selling has to happen in promos, stipulations, etc.  If those sorts of things aren't "sold" as a big deal, they don't matter, just like not selling a leg makes the work done on it during a match not matter.

[NintendoLogic]

On 8/26/2019 at 11:54 AM, War is Raw said:

Yes, I do believe it is an art form, and it you don't it is because of class tastes.

I think the opposite is closer to the truth. To reiterate what I said earlier, wrestling-is-art advocates seem to be driven by status anxiety over being interested in something widely seen as sleazy and lowbrow. They're trying to link it with high culture in an attempt to imbue it with intellectual prestige. Wrestling may fall under a broad technical definition of art, but "art" in ordinary usage refers to high art, and nobody can credibly claim that pro wrestling meets that definition. Linking wrestling with art won't elevate the perception of wrestling, it'll degrade the perception of art.

[fxnj]

I honestly see no issues with the label of "sports entertainment" that WWE uses to describe wrestling. Yes, they are trying to entertain people through matches with predetermined outcomes, but there's an undeniably huge influence in presentation from spectator sports (and, conversely, from wrestling onto competitive sports like MMA and boxing). I can absolutely sympathise with people who want wrestling to strive towards "realism." By that, I don't mean bringing back kayfabe but instead doing so through gritty struggle over moves, displaying raw emotion, and being produced as a sports broadcast would be. It's still ridiculous for Cornette to present himself as someone leading the charge for "realism" given the cartoony shit that was all over the Memphis and Crockett he idolizes.

[FMKK]

I'm interested to see what the crowd at Royal Quest is like when I go to the show tomorrow. On one hand, it'll be a smartly English crowd but on the other they might be influenced by how Japanese crowds behave. I really hope that's the case as opposed to obnoxious chants etc.

[Blehschmidt]

Going back to the main title of this thread, about feeling alienated by the current fanbase.

Back in May I attended a Chikara show in Pittsburgh and had my whole experience ruined by three douchebags dressed in American flag shirts, flag sunglasses, novelty hats, and capes who sat right behind us and spent the whole show trying to get themselves over.

Every fucking stupid WWE chant you could think of. Commenting about work rate. Chikara does the family friendly thing but they were swearing away, yelling about how one wrestler dressed in white looked like a giant tampon, etc.

I am not a confrontational guy, I am 40 and haven't been in a fight since high school, but I don't know if I've ever wanted to hit people so bad in my entire laugh. My two buddies felt the same way.

Yet, if anyone else was pissed off, no one showed it. So maybe I am just the bitter old curmudgeon, and that's why I feel alienated.

[Log]

2 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

Going back to the main title of this thread, about feeling alienated by the current fanbase.

Back in May I attended a Chikara show in Pittsburgh and had my whole experience ruined by three douchebags dressed in American flag shirts, flag sunglasses, novelty hats, and capes who sat right behind us and spent the whole show trying to get themselves over.

Every fucking stupid WWE chant you could think of. Commenting about work rate. Chikara does the family friendly thing but they were swearing away, yelling about how one wrestler dressed in white looked like a giant tampon, etc.

I am not a confrontational guy, I am 40 and haven't been in a fight since high school, but I don't know if I've ever wanted to hit people so bad in my entire laugh. My two buddies felt the same way.

Yet, if anyone else was pissed off, no one showed it. So maybe I am just the bitter old curmudgeon, and that's why I feel alienated.

I went to an ROH show years ago in Dayton.  There was a dude behind me that would just yell random wrestlers' names.  "Golddust!" "Honky Tonk Man!"  Stuff like that.  Just their name, no other comment or joke with it.  His friend thought it was hilarious.  I ended up moving.

[sek69]

On 8/26/2019 at 7:33 AM, El-P said:

I mean Corny is the one who thought Kevin Steen could not be a star because of his look)

 

Isn't it so weird he would say that, yet it's not like Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey were sporting Lex Luger bodies in an era where that was far more important? Not to mention he made most of his money feuding with Ricky and Robert, who had bodies like most of the fans in the front row. 

 

[Mad Dog]

2 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

Going back to the main title of this thread, about feeling alienated by the current fanbase.

Back in May I attended a Chikara show in Pittsburgh and had my whole experience ruined by three douchebags dressed in American flag shirts, flag sunglasses, novelty hats, and capes who sat right behind us and spent the whole show trying to get themselves over.

Every fucking stupid WWE chant you could think of. Commenting about work rate. Chikara does the family friendly thing but they were swearing away, yelling about how one wrestler dressed in white looked like a giant tampon, etc.

I am not a confrontational guy, I am 40 and haven't been in a fight since high school, but I don't know if I've ever wanted to hit people so bad in my entire laugh. My two buddies felt the same way.

Yet, if anyone else was pissed off, no one showed it. So maybe I am just the bitter old curmudgeon, and that's why I feel alienated.

Honestly, it's not really that unique to wrestling crowds. I have been just as annoyed by the same type of idiots at normal sporting events. God forbid they get a reaction early too because they will spend the rest of the night doing shit.

[El-P]

46 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Isn't it so weird he would say that, yet it's not like Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey were sporting Lex Luger bodies in an era where that was far more important? Not to mention he made most of his money feuding with Ricky and Robert, who had bodies like most of the fans in the front row. 

Yeah, no shit. Just like the accusation of "too much gaga" from the manager of the MX doesn't fly for two seconds.

42 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Honestly, it's not really that unique to wrestling crowds. I have been just as annoyed by the same type of idiots at normal sporting events.

Yep. And scrap "sporting events". Annoying people are everywhere. I don't go to any sporting events, ever, but I've had my share of annoying as fuck people at concerts.

[Blehschmidt]

3 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

I am not a confrontational guy, I am 40 and haven't been in a fight since high school, but I don't know if I've ever wanted to hit people so bad in my entire laugh. My two buddies felt the same way.

Yet, if anyone else was pissed off, no one showed it. So maybe I am just the bitter old curmudgeon, and that's why I feel alienated.

Not sure why I typed my entire laugh! Oops.

But anyway, I get having fun and chanting at wrestling shows, hell, I've even gotten in on the giving the referee a hard time bit at some indy shows, but when you literally come to the show with the sole intention of making the whole show about you....just go eat a fucking bullet.

[sek69]

Reminds me of one of my earliest fan memories. I went to an NWA house show in 1987 (I was nine), and joined in with an older kid in front who was yelling "Dick Murdoch is playing with himself!" during the "heel fishes in his trunks to pull out a foreign object behind the ref's back" routine. 

My parents were mortified.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

2 hours ago, Log said:

I went to an ROH show years ago in Dayton.  There was a dude behind me that would just yell random wrestlers' names.  "Golddust!" "Honky Tonk Man!"  Stuff like that.  Just their name, no other comment or joke with it.  His friend thought it was hilarious.  I ended up moving.

I've had this one too. It was at a WWE show, and they were trying to find obscure guys to shout, but it was just guys like Rikishi they were coming up with. And yeah, they all thought it was the funniest thing ever.

At an indie show I had a bunch of guys in front of me being super obnoxious. They were shouting out jokes about Zach Gowen, who was wrestling, and they called one of the wrestlers a faggot. My wife had to stop me from saying something at that point, and I'm the most non-confrontational guy ever. I mean, apart from anything else, there's kids in the crowd. We ended up moving.

[Blehschmidt]

35 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Reminds me of one of my earliest fan memories. I went to an NWA house show in 1987 (I was nine), and joined in with an older kid in front who was yelling "Dick Murdoch is playing with himself!" during the "heel fishes in his trunks to pull out a foreign object behind the ref's back" routine. 

My parents were mortified.

That's funny! When it's kids, it's a totally different story. Kids can yell pretty much whatever they want.

But when your a grown ass adult, it's a different story. Hell, even if you just do it once, it can be funny. But when literally you try and be the star of the show, it's just fucking obnoxious.