Any other longterm fans starting to feel alienated by the current fanbase?

[Al]

I feel alienated from the current fan base of just about anything. Anyone who markets to my preferences isn't looking to make a lot of money. But I do find it amusing to see hardcore fans now pine for wrestling that a previous generation of hardcore fans absolutely despised.

[rzombie1988]

 

Lou Thesz and co looked down on Ric Flair and co.

 

For me these days the problem more than anything else is transience. When I was growing up, I read about fans talking up Flair vs Steamboat, and older fans talked up Dory vs Brisco or other legendary feuds.

 

Things that happened when I was younger seem to have retained their significance. I was struck when I was reminiscing with Allan and Chris Hero a few weeks back, both Allan and my minds went back to Bret Hart tapping the belt on his shoulder in the build to Wrestlemania 9. Now Mania 9 wasn't even a good mania and and Bret vs Yoko wasn't a particularly great match but the importance still seemed to etch itself in our 11-year old minds.

 

I do wonder if stuff these days retains that sort of significance. Will people still talk about the great matches from April 2016 in the same way we still look back on 1989 or 1992 now?

 

For some reason, it doesn't seem the same. It's all transient. I do not know though if it's just cos I'm older or if it's something to do with the product.

I don't know about this. I think there are moments people will/do talk about. Pipe Bomb promo. Cena-Lesnar. Rollins cash in at mania, etc...

 

I think our interaction with younger fans is lower, so it's difficult to see.

 

Trust me, PWO don't want none of r/squaredcircle. The best and well thought out response in the world just dies to downvotes if it goes against the grain.

[Grimmas]

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

[goc]

In a properly post-post-kayfabe world does anyone really care who wins and loses? Or do they just care about match quality? I'm just wondering if things might have mattered more in the past and were more memorable because of a real emotional reaction.

 

However, listening to some recent podcasts on territorial stuff there's always been old guys like us moaning about the modern product and waxing lyrical about what happened twenty years ago.

People care about wins and loses but in a different way. It's mostly about "this guy should win because he's not being pushed enough" and "this guy should lose because he's pushed too much/already had his chance with the title" One of my least favorite things about modern fandom is the idea that the World Title is some kind of award for good service where if you've worked for the company for X number of years and had Y number of good matches you're automatically supposed to get a run with the belt whether or not you have any hope of being able to draw with it.

[El-P]

"Those Twitter and tumblr fans are the worse. They ruin pro-wrestling with their NJ and indy fetish". Some pro-wrestling board smark. Late 2010's

 

"In my days, we used to tell stories. Now it's just a bunch of moves." Maria Kanellis. Sometime in the late 00's.

 

"Internet fans don't know shit and have ruined the business. Pro-wrestling was much better when kayfabe was still around." Every active wrestler. Early 00's.

 

"That Ric Flair guy sucks. He makes pro-wrestling looks like choregraphed shit with his cartoony antics bullshit. Wrestling in the 80's sucks. It's all a bunch of people running around and gimmicks". Some old Lou Thesz fan in 1986.

 

"Gorgeous George ? Are you kidding me ? Pro-wrestling used to a treated seriously in my days." Some old fucker born in the late 19th century.

 

Pro-wrestling was always better before. Before what ? Just BEFORE.

[JerryvonKramer]

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

[Matt D]

 

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

 

Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia.

 

We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992.

 

That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

There feels like a difference between people who are from the old school of star ratings, and ... I don't know how else to put it, the twitter people.

 

https://np.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/2u73cg/tumblrbashing_why_or_why_not/co5ucsk/

Curative fandom ftw

[Grimmas]

 

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

 

No, but in 2014-15 I watched thousands of matches, while in 89 and 92 there was few matches that were meant to be on that level.

 

If 89/92 had monthly ppvs, and I had access to footage from every promotion all over the world at my fingertips, I would have trouble remembering too.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

 

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia.

 

We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992.

 

That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now.

Well, I mean *I* could do 78, I could probably do some 00s years too.

 

But the thing is, loads of stuff I would name isn't stuff I watched when I was a kid, it's stuff I've seen in the past five years.

 

And some stuff resonates *for me*. That Hero tag from evolve 53 which I think is the best US tag match in history and no one else cares about, Roman vs Brock, but I sometimes feel like I'm in a minority when I talk about modern stuff like that. I try to add to my own little pantheon of great matches, but it's weird.

 

Chad tells me he has over 50 matches rated at 4+ for 2016, I wonder though if he'll still be talking about them in a few years.

[Loss]

I do feel disconnected, but it doesn't really bother me. Sometimes, you have to forge your own way. I go on Twitter and talk about matches from 2000 during Tokyo Dome shows and Raw because that's what I feel like talking about. Just do what you enjoy. For me, that's making sense of it all. I used to worry about larger trends taking hold and the future of hardcore fandom and all of that nonsense, but it's all just noise. The actual match talk is where I choose to spend my time and energy now. I do like to have at least some social connection to other fans, but I have that here, so just remember that as long as we've got each other, we've got the world spinning right in our hands.

[Coffey]

I feel like it took me a long time to even be able to admit to myself that I have a style of wrestling that I prefer. I'm also a pretty pessimistic & negative person in general, so whenever there's a lot of praise for something, it's going to be rare that I'm a part of that group anyway.

 

With the Wrestle Kingdom show, I did genuinely & truly love the Tanahashi/Naito match & think it was the best I've seen Tanahashi look. I have company coming over tonight to watch the show & I can't wait to watch that match again & to gauge the reaction of my friends.

 

After that show aired however all of the post-show reaction that I'm seeing & reading is people arguing over if Okada/Omega was great or not & I just feel so bad because Tanahashi/Naito are going to get lost in the scuffle of bickering. So I'm in an odd spot right now where I'm the positive person trying to praise a match... but it's not the match everyone is talking about.

 

In a similar way to how when you go outside of PWO wrestling fans will sing the praises & talk about how great Shawn Michaels & Kurt Angle are. Even if you initially are trying to praise someone else, like Stan Hansen or Terry Funk, eventually you start bad mouthing Michaels & Angle instead (at least if you're anything like me).

 

I don't want to get caught in that trap again.

[Migs]

Lou Thesz and co looked down on Ric Flair and co.

 

For me these days the problem more than anything else is transience. When I was growing up, I read about fans talking up Flair vs Steamboat, and older fans talked up Dory vs Brisco or other legendary feuds.

 

Things that happened when I was younger seem to have retained their significance. I was struck when I was reminiscing with Allan and Chris Hero a few weeks back, both Allan and my minds went back to Bret Hart tapping the belt on his shoulder in the build to Wrestlemania 9. Now Mania 9 wasn't even a good mania and and Bret vs Yoko wasn't a particularly great match but the importance still seemed to etch itself in our 11-year old minds.

 

I do wonder if stuff these days retains that sort of significance. Will people still talk about the great matches from April 2016 in the same way we still look back on 1989 or 1992 now?

 

For some reason, it doesn't seem the same. It's all transient. I do not know though if it's just cos I'm older or if it's something to do with the product.

 

Part of this is simply that 1984 is basically the beginning of time from a modern wrestling / WWE perspective. Hulk Hogan is the Beatles (and Randy Savage is the Rolling Stones). Parts of that story (particularly WM3) will endure because people are still getting taught about it now.

[GOTNW]

"Those Twitter and tumblr fans are the worse. They ruin pro-wrestling with their NJ and indy fetish". Some pro-wrestling board smark. Late 2010's

 

"In my days, we used to tell stories. Now it's just a bunch of moves." Maria Kanellis. Sometime in the late 00's.

 

"Internet fans don't know shit and have ruined the business. Pro-wrestling was much better when kayfabe was still around." Every active wrestler. Early 00's.

 

"That Ric Flair guy sucks. He makes pro-wrestling looks like choregraphed shit with his cartoony antics bullshit. Wrestling in the 80's sucks. It's all a bunch of people running around and gimmicks". Some old Lou Thesz fan in 1986.

 

"Gorgeous George ? Are you kidding me ? Pro-wrestling used to a treated seriously in my days." Some old fucker born in the late 19th century.

 

Pro-wrestling was always better before. Before what ? Just BEFORE.

There are people today who when watching Golden Are matches (and matches preceeding it) prefer them to be working straight instead of with gimmicky nonsense.

 

Similarly you've had several people in the past year or so speak out in how they prefer the way Thesz worked to how it was worked in Flair's time.

 

The latter statements are still very much alive. If there's truth in it it's not going to go away. Ever. Not that it will stop the business from changing five more times.

[thebrainfollower]

I've actually got a podcast idea and hopefully a pilot on this idea. Maybe called "what's the matter with kids today" it has me showing old territorial footage to a couple of new fans, one of whom adores TNA and the other whose favorite "nostalgia" was Vince Russo WCW 2000. I want to see how they react to non-WWF pre 1995 stuff. We basically record the comments with the footage, ala Titans of Wrestling.

[Strummer]

it doesn't just apply to wrestling for me. I watch TV shows and movies that people say are great and I just don't get it at all. In my mind they will never be as good as Family Ties, Larry Sanders or all the comedies I grew up on. It's the frightening realization that I'm getting old. It's funny when I was a kid my parents would tell me how terrible and stupid the TV and movies I watched were and I thought they were clearly out of their mind. Now I know what they were talking about. It's depressing and scary but it's just part of life I guess

[shoe]

I know I'm a relic when it comes to my tastes in wrestling. I enjoy all types of wrestling, but a lot of the current struggles miss the mark in comparison to what I liked .

[goc]

I think a lot of the disconnect comes down to a lot of old school fans wanting wrestling to actually seem like a struggle between two guys trying to win a contest. Not saying ALL modern wrestling is this way, but a lot of it now feels just like two guys working together to put on a performance to entertain fans.

 

While that approach may lead to "better matches" in a star rating sense it ends up making them transient as it rarely leads to an emotional connection to the performers involved and the only real emotion is "oh man that was a cool spot!" which rapidly dissipates after the next match with cool spots happens.

 

Even if EVOLVE may have a "better average match quality" than Houston wrestling a lot more of what you watch on NWAOnDemand is going to stick with you because it creates an emotional response.

[rzombie1988]

I think a lot of the disconnect comes down to a lot of old school fans wanting wrestling to actually seem like a struggle between two guys trying to win a contest. Not saying ALL modern wrestling is this way, but a lot of it now feels just like two guys working together to put on a performance to entertain fans.

 

While that approach may lead to "better matches" in a star rating sense it ends up making them transient as it rarely leads to an emotional connection to the performers involved and the only real emotion is "oh man that was a cool spot!" which rapidly dissipates after the next match with cool spots happens.

 

Even if EVOLVE may have a "better average match quality" than Houston wrestling a lot more of what you watch on NWAOnDemand is going to stick with you because it creates an emotional response.

I would honestly sacrifice good matches for people trying to make it look like its real and decent characters/promos.

[Migs]

 

In a properly post-post-kayfabe world does anyone really care who wins and loses? Or do they just care about match quality? I'm just wondering if things might have mattered more in the past and were more memorable because of a real emotional reaction.

 

However, listening to some recent podcasts on territorial stuff there's always been old guys like us moaning about the modern product and waxing lyrical about what happened twenty years ago.

People care about wins and loses but in a different way. It's mostly about "this guy should win because he's not being pushed enough" and "this guy should lose because he's pushed too much/already had his chance with the title" One of my least favorite things about modern fandom is the idea that the World Title is some kind of award for good service where if you've worked for the company for X number of years and had Y number of good matches you're automatically supposed to get a run with the belt whether or not you have any hope of being able to draw with it.

 

 

"You deserve this!" is a worse chant than "This is awesome!"

[sek69]

I feel disconnected from both sides at times. I've watched wrestling from all over the world for over 30 years and never stopped for a second to consider a star rating. I've also watched modern epics everyone raves about and thought they were so-so. Last night it seemed both sides clashed like two head butting rams. It's funny seeing people arguing over a quarter star as if anything less than the full five is trash, while others argue this year's show was WORST EVAR because they did one too many finisher kick outs.

 

I mean, everyone seems to forget at times that the point of pro wrestling is to draw money. Are acts like the Young Bucks everyone's cup of tea? Of course not, but they make probably the same money or maybe even more than they would in WWE working half the dates. That's Kevin Nash levels of winning in pro wrestling.

 

Is that a too simplistic view? Perhaps. But I think sometimes super fans like us lose sight of the forest among all the trees.

 

There's good stuff to be had. If one company doesn't tickle your pickle, there's tons of options.

[soup23]

 

 

 

Come on the great matches of 2016 will match up nicely with the great matches of the 80s.

Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?

Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia.

 

We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992.

 

That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now.

Well, I mean *I* could do 78, I could probably do some 00s years too.

 

But the thing is, loads of stuff I would name isn't stuff I watched when I was a kid, it's stuff I've seen in the past five years.

 

And some stuff resonates *for me*. That Hero tag from evolve 53 which I think is the best US tag match in history and no one else cares about, Roman vs Brock, but I sometimes feel like I'm in a minority when I talk about modern stuff like that. I try to add to my own little pantheon of great matches, but it's weird.

 

Chad tells me he has over 50 matches rated at 4+ for 2016, I wonder though if he'll still be talking about them in a few years.

 

 

 

This is too tough a gauge. We have watched a ton of stuff that is rated highly for WTBBP (3.5+) and we don't spend endless amounts of time discussing them. I absolutely will be talking about the ***** matches I have from 2016 years down the road. LIke Clash 17 is for some, DIY vs. Revival eclipsed that for me and is an encapsulation of the Southern style tag formula. The saturation is a factor but while I don't see if on that level, people do talk about Tanahashi vs. Okada from 2016 still as an all timer and it is getting some discussion in year end stuff happening now. What is the arbitrary amount of time that stuff has to be discussed?

[soup23]

I will say context goes a long way for my disconnect that happens during live events. Twitter is a good median to feel a "part" of something while a live event is going on but stuff like "THIS MATCH" or "OMG" are really tough to gauge in the historical context. I'm sure this comes off even more foreign to someone not watching the show and if they scrolled a timeline and saw that type of rhetoric for 5 hours straight during the Wrestle Kingdom event.

 

Another example is that again with the platforms of podcasts, articles, twitter, facebook, etc, the personality of the individuals comes into play. This can create a reaction where I am in the wrong and get frustrated for no good reason. For example, Joe Lanza from Voices of Wrestling talked during the World Tag League finals how he thought that was as good as any tag match in 2016. I thought it was a good match at best and projected that this was a persisting narrative when in reality once the reviews rolled in, Joe was essentially the only one that was THAT high on that match. That is a fault of mine in projecting others opinions based on one entity but it does feel like stable warfare sometimes where you are either a Dylan soldier or a Lanza soldier, etc.

[elliott]

I have a nasty cold and am heavily medicated. So this will be insane person word salad...

 

You know how Meltzer and really lots of people, like to joke about wrestling being 10-15 years behind the times. I always think about that when I watch an 80s set and go nuts about how great it is. But looking around at music, tv, movies, fashion, etc. the 80s were the worst. THE WORST. But that's my favorite wrestling decade. So if you add that with the idea that wrestling is 10-15 years behind the rest of the pop culture world, 80s wrestling is actually the wrestling equivalent to all the awesome music and movies that came out in the late 60s & 70s.

 

So if you think about why wrestling is so shitty and forgettable right now. Think about it in terms of the 10-15 year idea. Wrestling is at the peak of "reality TV."

 

You guys got 10 more years before wrestling enters the Game of Thrones, Mad Men, Breaking Bad "everything is holy shit amazing" era. Hold on for dear life you' poor bastards. You're in the middle of The Simple Life and you haven't even made it to Jersey Shore.

 

Back to nyquil. Carry on.

[The Russian Daydream]

No, but in 2014-15 I watched thousands of matches, while in 89 and 92 there was few matches that were meant to be on that level.

 

If 89/92 had monthly ppvs, and I had access to footage from every promotion all over the world at my fingertips, I would have trouble remembering too.

I think this is a good point, and it applies to so many things in 2017 that we have much more immediate access to than we did 25 years ago. Music, TV, Films and so on.