Any other longterm fans starting to feel alienated by the current fanbase?

[stro]

I don't think anyone is saying SD is like TNA on any level. Just that the line between real life things interjected into angles being Russo-like and good is very, very thin.

[Peppercorn Bing Bong]

Is there anyone else here who hasn't really seen any 80's territorial stuff and has no intention of checking it out?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think there is any way to read storylines that tie in with Total Divas as anything but Russoesque. One show is explicitly out of kayfabe. Bringing storylines from that into the kayfabe show and having storylines intersect with the show that follows wrestlers outside of wrestling and show them working on putting matches together and being friends with people they're feuding with on the other show seems like Russo's wet dream.

 

The most Russoesque thing about Smackdown is the fact that pretty much everyone I can think of has a story. Sure I think you can argue that there is a thin line between integrating the real and the wrestling in an effective way and it going down the path of full blown disaster, but I cant think of a single instance where Smackdown has crossed that line at this point. AJ doesn't tell Cena he's an overpushed prick who can't wrestle - he says his virtual brother-in-law gifted him a world title shot he didn't deserve after being off for months and Styles had already beaten him three times. There is a big difference between those two things.

[Ricky Jackson]

Probably lots I'm sure. I'm not sure why anyone would want to deny themselves that pleasure, but I also don't understand why many wrestling fans like what they do

 

Edit: Damn it Dylan. This was a response to peppercorn

[Loss]

Again, that type of Styles promo isn't Russoism, it's HHHism. You are completely awful and undeserving of my time and I am only facing you because I am being forced to do so, not because you deserve it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Is there anyone else here who hasn't really seen any 80's territorial stuff and has no intention of checking it out?

Yeah I never got why people rave about that stuff, no interest.

[Peppercorn Bing Bong]

 

Is there anyone else here who hasn't really seen any 80's territorial stuff and has no intention of checking it out?

Yeah I never got why people rave about that stuff, no interest.

 

 

Same. I became a fan in the late 90's when I was a kid. I grew up with the big 3 and the first wave of "established" US indies such as ROH, CZW and IWA Mid South. I have just never felt any reason to go back and check the 80's stuff out. The only 80's stuff I can say I'm really familiar with is late 80's WWF. Must be a generational thing.

[Matt D]

There's an article on Ted Dibiase's suits you'd probably enjoy.

[goc]

 

 

Is there anyone else here who hasn't really seen any 80's territorial stuff and has no intention of checking it out?

Yeah I never got why people rave about that stuff, no interest.

 

 

Same. I became a fan in the late 90's when I was a kid. I grew up with the big 3 and the first wave of "established" US indies such as ROH, CZW and IWA Mid South. I have just never felt any reason to go back and check the 80's stuff out. The only 80's stuff I can say I'm really familiar with is late 80's WWF. Must be a generational thing.

 

How do you know you won't like it if you never check it out though? I mean I've at least sampled a lot of wrestling from a lot of different time periods before coming to the conclusion that puro and most modern indy stuff is just not for me.

[WingedEagle]

Again, that type of Styles promo isn't Russoism, it's HHHism. You are completely awful and undeserving of my time and I am only facing you because I am being forced to do so, not because you deserve it.

 

It can be, but it plays differently when delivered against someone established at Cena's level. Had they used that tact against Styles early in his run it would've been exactly that.

[Loss]

I still think "You were the man around here for 10 years, and when I beat you once, it was great. When I beat you twice, it was awesome and when I beat you three times ... I can't imagine how you could ever show your face around here again" or something to that effect would be so much better and get people so much more hyped for the match than "You only got this match because you're related to Daniel Bryan".

[FMKK]

I still think "You were the man around here for 10 years, and when I beat you once, it was great. When I beat you twice, it was awesome and when I beat you three times ... I can't imagine how you could ever show your face around here again" or something to that effect would be so much better and get people so much more hyped for the match than "You only got this match because you're related to Daniel Bryan".

 

I felt like it was more of the former of the latter in all fairness. The overall story is about whether Cena is still rightfully the top guy so it seems fine to me to acknowledge his connections and his star power as the reason he got into the match. The Cena character acknowledges this in his new catchphrase he's been using to justify himself "Why? Cause I'm John Cena. Recognise."

 

The vast majority of the contract signing promo was about the key issue of whether Cena still had it in him to be the top guy or whether Styles had surpassed him. They also referenced Cena being on TV and movies more frequently and how he once called out The Rock for being a part timer. To me, it's quite a basic story set-up between two rivals with a well delivered pair of promos and some references to 'real life' stuff to add intrigue and extra buy-in from the audience but it all stayed within the realm of kayfabe and any of the heel slights on Cena are going to be disproved when he wins the title anyway.

[Grimmas]

I still think "You were the man around here for 10 years, and when I beat you once, it was great. When I beat you twice, it was awesome and when I beat you three times ... I can't imagine how you could ever show your face around here again" or something to that effect would be so much better and get people so much more hyped for the match than "You only got this match because you're related to Daniel Bryan".

After the second match he told Cena he shouldn't show his face around again, and Cena was gone for a long while.

[Loss]

Cool. The explanation I got before was just that Styles was cutting promos that he only got a title shot because he was related to Daniel Bryan.

[Grimmas]

Cool. The explanation I got before was just that Styles was cutting promos that he only got a title shot because he was related to Daniel Bryan.

Yeah that was a small part of the story. AJ claims that's how Cena got this one after he's been gone after losing so many times.

[WingedEagle]

Cool. The explanation I got before was just that Styles was cutting promos that he only got a title shot because he was related to Daniel Bryan.

 

That was very much one line in the promo, but it was only a piece of the picture.

[Dylan Waco]

Again, that type of Styles promo isn't Russoism, it's HHHism. You are completely awful and undeserving of my time and I am only facing you because I am being forced to do so, not because you deserve it.

 

I can see how you would think that from what I just described, but if you saw the segment and that was your takeaway I'd be surprised. What Styles was saying WAS TRUE, just as it was true what Snowman was saying to Lawler. I can get disliking both of those things for various reasons, but I struggle seeing how someone could love one and think the other is bad.

[Dylan Waco]

Cool. The explanation I got before was just that Styles was cutting promos that he only got a title shot because he was related to Daniel Bryan.

 

That actually isn't true but ok

[Loss]

What part of what Snowman said to Lawler are you referring to specifically?

[Dylan Waco]

Snowman/Lawler is built around the implicit understanding that a large segment of the crowd knows the USWA is controlled by a good ole boys network that has not produced or maintained black stars regardless of their talent. There is a truth in the Snowman complaint, and it's a truth that a large portion of the audience can relate to on a level that goes beyond just pro wrestling.

 

With Styles promo it is true that Cena too months off, did nothing to earn another title shot, lost decisively to Styles, and the person giving him the title shot is his virtual brother-in-law. Cena is the entitled elite who benefits from nepotism BUT he is also really great, an all time legend, and almost never loses a fight when the stakes are high. Lawler is the beneficiary of institutional racism and structural biases BUT he is also the king, an all time legend, and almost never loses a fight when the stakes are high.

 

It may not be a completely fair comparison thought both because I don't remember tons of specifics from the Snowman/Lawler promos, and Lawler's penchant for running down the strengths of his opponents is far worse than Cena's.

[Parties]

Just curious: does anyone here think interjecting Renee into Miz/Ambrose is going to be a good thing long-term? It's fine and fair to say "wait and see", but where do you go with it? Best case scenario, the heels find some dastardly way to get heat on the faces, and the faces find some clever way at revenge. You could see Dean and Renee having something of a Savage/Liz vibe, albeit a Liz who talks more and has her own life.

 

But even in ideal booking, what's the end result of this storyline? She goes back to being lead anchor and they have the other panelists make nudge-nudge-wink-wink jokes about their relationship once in a while? People are already talking about a mixed tag at Mania or at least Renee getting involved in the ring somehow, which sounds like a disaster. The whole thing just feels like Vince's usual blood lust for embarrassing romantically involved talent, with a bit of Ryan Ward booking on top to make the bad taste go down smoother.

[Exposer]

Got to pipe in here because I think the Cena-AJ promo discussion is forgetting & ignoring several key moments of the segment. AJ pointined out several times that he's beaten Cena 3 times. He also put Cena over & said he's been great for a long time but his time is over & it's clear as he's only part-time. This idea that the promos were just two guys burying one another Russo or HHH style is false. Maybe we should all watch the segment before coming to conclusions

[Dylan Waco]

Just curious: does anyone here think interjecting Renee into Miz/Ambrose is going to be a good thing long-term? It's fine and fair to say "wait and see", but where do you go with it? Best case scenario, the heels find some dastardly way to get heat on the faces, and the faces find some clever way at revenge. You could see Dean and Renee having something of a Savage/Liz vibe, albeit a Liz who talks more and has her own life.

 

But even in ideal booking, what's the end result of this storyline? She goes back to being lead anchor and they have the other panelists make nudge-nudge-wink-wink jokes about their relationship once in a while? People are already talking about a mixed tag at Mania or at least Renee getting involved in the ring somehow, which sounds like a disaster. The whole thing just feels like Vince's usual blood lust for embarrassing romantically involved talent, with a bit of Ryan Ward booking on top to make the bad taste go down smoother.

 

The execution has been good at this point. Very hard to see what the long term payoff is, but it's another thing that seems Memphis-y to me.

[Loss]

Yes, heel Lawler's penchant for running down strengths of his opponents in promos is problematic, and that's something I've criticized him for many times. Cena does it occasionally, but even if he did it even more, I'd still be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because of the differences in how promos are crafted now and how little autonomy wrestlers typically have in what they say, even in some cases someone at Cena's level.

 

I actually had the last few weeks of Smackdown still on my DVR and went back and watched it for the purpose of this thread. It was one line and not at all the focus of the entire segment. (It was a very good segment that has me interested in a match on a show I had no intention of watching.) I was left with the impression from reading that it was, and that struck me as the usual WWE fluff where people who are feuding tend to trash each other as worthless based on semi-shoot comments hitting on any weaknesses in how fans perceive them until they have their match. I call that HHHism because his time on top is when those promos became the norm in the company. I don't think it's always as explicit as the stuff he would say to someone like Cena or Booker T either -- even the Undertaker told *him* he wasn't as good as Shawn Michaels. So yeah, chalk it up to half evil self preservation and half just seeing that as what wrestling is.

 

I don't think whether something is true or not determines whether it is appropriate to include in a promo, for the record. Sometimes it is appropriate and sometimes it's not. The Lawler-Snowman feud was about a bigger issue than professional wrestling being played out within professional wrestling. The real elements were there because of Snowman's appearances on urban radio when he was legitimately on the outs with the territory. Cena-Styles is something different. Cena only benefits from nepotism in a kayfabe sense. Daniel Bryan has no actual power in the company and everyone watching knows that. Styles was doing what good heels do -- explaining something truthfully as he saw it in a way that made sense, with a dose of exaggeration and delusion mixed in. I do recall that in Cena's return he challenged the winner of the Styles-Corbin-Ziggler match to a title match at the Royal Rumble, and that Daniel Bryan wasn't involved in the decision to give Cena the match at all, but rather that he acted on his own.

 

Anyway, we are probably giving WWE storylines more thought than they do. Styles was very good in the segment, and he stayed on the right side of the HHH-Russo divide that I called out. The whole reason I got involved in this in the first place was because of the talk of Smackdown being the best wrestling TV ever. I will again say that every time I have watched it, I have liked it. I just questioned that label.

[Kronos]

I wouldn't always defend their choice of what to like, but the "twitter" fans do love to watch rasslin. I quite enjoy their excitement and find it rubs off. Example: I have recently been listening to a lot of the WhatCulture WWE lists on youtube - Top 10 Promos, Top 10 Matches, etc. Most of the guys on there fill their top 10 lists with things that more serious fans might not necessarily consider GOAT. But their enthusiasm for what they like is catchy, as is the discussion on youtube below the video. (when people aren't trolling, that is)

 

It reminds me of Classic Doctor Who vs NuWho fans. The NuWho fans, who may or may not care for classic DW, are just as passionate about post-2005 product as the "twitter" fans are about what current wrestling they enjoy. There's a lot of conflict online between them and the Classic-Who-Is-Best fans, most of whom grew up with the older product.

 

 

Sometimes, we take things so seriously with analyzing matches, etc that we forget Rasslin Is Fun.