This might make a fun topic

[Loss]

Draft #2, which I made last night. It's interesting reading Dylan's post now, because obviously, some of the things I was thinking about my own list are things he verbalized here. No Terry Gordy?

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Jumbo Tsuruta

3. Toshiaki Kawada

4. Nobuhiko Takada

5. Kenta Kobashi

6. Negro Casas

7. El Hijo del Santo

8. Jushin Liger

9. Eddy Guerrero

10. Jerry Lawler

11. Mitsuharu Misawa

12. Harley Race

13. Akira Hokuto

14. Chris Benoit

15. El Dandy

16. Aja Kong

17. Terry Funk

18. Blue Panther

19. Stan Hansen

20. Mayumi Ozaki

21. Chigusa Nagayo

22. Jaguar Yokota

23. Genichiro Tenryu

24. Akira Taue

25. Ricky Morton

26. Hiroshi Hase

27. Fuerza Guerrera

28. Billy Robinson

29. Arn Anderson

30. The Destroyer

31. Vader

32. Rey Misterio Jr

33. Bull Nakano

34. Nick Bockwinkel

35. Dynamite Kid

36. Devil Masami

37. Terry Gordy

38. Kiyoshi Tamura

39. Villano III

40. Dick Murdoch

41. Dump Matsumoto

42. Kazuo Yamazaki

43. Bret Hart

44. Shinya Hashimoto

45. Barry Windham

46. Ricky Steamboat

47. Atlantis

48. Manami Toyota

49. Ted DiBiase

50. Jack Brisco

51. Bobby Eaton

52. Dynamite Kansai

53. Tully Blanchard

54. Marc Rocco

55. Volk Han

56. El Samurai

57. Pirata Morgan

58. Owen Hart

59. Steve Austin

60. Akira Maeda

61. Juventud Guerrera

62. Mariko Yoshida

63. Bob Backlund

64. Sgt. Slaughter

65. Dan Kroffat

66. Lioness Asuka

67. Rick Martel

68. Brazo de Oro

69. Tommy Rogers

70. Shinjiro Otani

71. Randy Savage

72. Bill Dundee

73. Adrian Adonis

74. El Satanico

75. William Regal

76. Javier Cruz

77. Dennis Condrey

78. Kuniaki Kobayashi

79. Dory Funk Jr.

80. Satoru Sayama

81. Buddy Rose

82. Giant Baba

83. Jake Roberts

84. Antonio Inoki

85. Steve Williams

86. Curt Hennig

87. Brian Pillman

88. Shawn Michaels

89. Rick Rude

90. Tatsumi Fujinami

91. Don Muraco

92. Mick Foley

93. Taka Michinoku

94. Ron Garvin

95. Roddy Piper

96. El Texano

97. The Rock

98. Jerry Estrada

99. Naoki Sano

100. Kyoko Inoue

[Loss]

Mick Foley

Dustin Rhodes

Lioness Asuka

Shiro Koshinaka

 

Dustin seems like a hipster pick, given the DVDVR Dustin of The Day thing.  I'm not saying that's what you would be doing, but I don't think he's the kind of guy who's ommision from such a list would be glaring or even of much concern.  I don't see him as being significantly better than Marty Jannetty or Bam Bam Bigelow for example, and both of those guys got bumped off my list months ago.

Problem with Bigelow for me is output. I saw Dustin in more good-great matches from 1991-1994 than I saw Bigelow in over the course of his career. There is an argument for Dustin over Jannetty or vice versa, but as I said in the past, Michaels has to be significantly higher every time out if Jannetty is included. I look above Michaels and I struggle to place him above anyone listed above him, although I definitely think he deserves a place on the list.

 

Foley is a controversial pick, but to me he's an easy one none the less.? Way too many good and memorable matches, and more often than not he was the best worker in those bouts.? I think he's a good bit better than alot of people that made your final ballot, but more on that later

Foley made my second draft and I'm happy with where I have him. Some of the other eliminations were difficult, but I'll cover those in a minute.

 

You don't like Koshinaka as much as some do, so I'm not surprised to see him off your list.? I'm actually happy that you seem to feel a bit guilty about that, as it strikes me as a step forward for you on Kosh, whom I think is a gimme pick.

I see him as the worst of the 80s NJ juniors myself, behind Takada, pre-costume Liger, Hase and Kobayashi. The Kobayashi matches I've seen against Koshinaka were eye-openers for me, for both guys. The main argument I've come across for Koshinaka was his matches against Satanico from Arena Mexico that I just watched not long ago. They are outstanding. But his NJ stuff still does very little for me. I'd call him the Lex Luger of the NJ juniors in that he was pretty good at his best and able to follow along in big matches, but totally not capable of orchestrating one on his own.

 

Very surprised Asuka didn't appear on your list.? I understand their are a couple of obvious knocks against her and I can see why she might be lower on your list, but there are some names on your list that have almost identical knocks and weren't nearly as good in the ring IMO.? Once again more on that later

Asuka ended up making my list and doing fairly well. I consider her an oversight at this point. She's taken care of.0

 

And here's the list right now:

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Jumbo Tsuruta

3. Toshiaki Kawada

4. Nobuhiko Takada

5. Jushin Liger

6. Negro Casas

7. Jerry Lawler

8. El Hijo del Santo

9. Harley Race

10. Kenta Kobashi

 

Your top ten is pretty agreeable.?

 

As it stands I will have no lucha on my list.? There are only four or five guys I would feel comfortable rating at all, and I'm not sure I could rate them fairly.? If I could afford to purchase a lucha set I would, but I can't.? If I were going to rate any luchadores Casas and Santo would be two of the four (Blue Panther and Atlantis would be the other two definates) so I can definaely see them as top ten guys.?

 

Though the order will be different, our top five will have four of the same people.? Only Takada will not be in my top five, and he is going to be either sixth or seventh on my list (it's between him and Kobashi).

I like to call that The Tabe Decision. I too pondered Kobashi and Takada against each other, even though there is a significant gap between them in the numbering. One of them was going to end up way higher than the other one and one would end up not only behind the other, but other people as well. Takada won out in the end, but Kobashi is obviously great.

 

Race fluctuates on my list between 10-12.? Right now I have him at number 10, but there is a chance he could slide down a slot are two.? Lawler in the top ten is something I can't do, but I understand it and don't consider it all that odd.?

 

11. Akira Hokuto

12. Eddy Guerrero

13. Mitsuharu Misawa

14. Chris Benoit

15. El Dandy

16. Aja Kong

 

Boy, El Dandy must have some really awesome stuff out there.

He does. At first, honestly, I wasn't understanding the extremely high placing from the fellow lucha fans, just because I saw a lot of great stuff in a really short time, and my thoughts on that have always been that while it's impressive, I don't think one hot run is enough to carry a wrestler high on this list. (It's why Hokuto just missed the Top 10.) What's far more important to me is a longer run of consistency, even if the peak isn't quite as high.

 

Anyway, what finally sold me on Dandy as someone deserving of a high spot was his role in the '96 Santo/Casas stuff and his great 2004 match with Parka from ENESMA. I saw some longevity there and it helped his case, and both of those matches are terrific and as good as almost anything that year. I have a feeling that when I finally get all the way through 1991 CMLL that Dandy will be in almost all of the top 10 matches for a three year period. I've also seen him in 1986-1987 trios and been very impressed as well.

 

I have Aja and Hokuto in my top ten, but I love Joshi and think when it is done best no other style of wrestling is as good.? I have Aja one slot above Hokuto and that won't change, as I think Aja had a slightly better career, with Hokuto having a better peak.

I wouldn't argue that at all. Kong losing the WWWA title to Kansai was what was fresh in my mind when I made her a top 20 pick. Just an amazing match and moment, and possibly the best ending of a long, effective time in the top role I've seen. Kong is someone that might be higher if I did this list in a few years.

 

Interesting to note that we have almost identical placement of Eddy, Misawa and Benoit right now.? Glad I won't be the only person to keep Misawa out of the top ten AND behind Eddie.

With Misawa, the best advice I can give anyone who disagrees is to pay more attention to the people ranked above him than the number beside his name. I don't see how anyone above him doesn't deserve to be higher.

 

17. Genichiro Tenryu

18. Blue Panther

19. Mayumi Ozaki

20. Stan Hansen

21. Terry Funk

 

Tenryu is the first person on your list I feel is really overrated and Funk is the first one I think is really underrated..but I have to say I don't really find other placement objectionable.? I have a minority opinion on Funk, but right now I'm leaning heavily toward making him my number one overall.? I don't think he has quite the resume that a couple of other guys have on the surface, but his versaility and consistent ability to be entertaining and stand out decades past is prime is something that is hard to overlook.? Couple that with the fact that I think I will be one of the few people to even consider him for the top ten and I feel almost obligated to vote him number one overall.? Tenryu is someone that I think has benefitted dramatically by the fact that he is one of the only Japanese heavys to excede expectations in the post-Baba period.? I never heard anyone touting him as a top of the line guy until after the AJPW split and now I see alot of people talk about him as one of the elite.? I don't see it myself, but it's a fairly consistent opinion.? He'll be in the lower quadrant of my list.

Tenryu is one of the better old man wrestlers I've seen, and the fact that I think his elderly stuff is better than elderly Flair, Funk, Bock, Koloff, etc, along with the super classicos with Jumbo in the late 80s, made me rank him highly. That said, I overrated him, especially in relation to Funk. I fixed that. I know we've discussed this before, but my biggest issue with Terry Funk is that it's painful for me to watch him after the Flair feud. And actually, I shouldn't say the Flair feud completely, because his run in 1990 USWA was a favorite of mine as well. But after that, I don't see it. I respect and acknowledge the role he had in ECW taking off, but I look at that time period and see a guy who had the potential to lead and instead followed in the footsteps of guys like Sabu in terms of stunts. While obviously he's lesser of a problem than Foley on this, Funk is a large part of the reason the bar is too high for big bumps. I also resent him prostituting himself to a point where he eventually became an opening match, comedy guy in a dying WCW in 2000, when there's no good reason a respected world champ should end his career on that note.

 

22. Chigusa Nagayo

23. Arn Anderson

24. Akira Taue

25. Hiroshi Hase

26. Masa Fuchi

27. Ricky Morton

 

I thought I was the only person that would end up rating Chiggy top twenty-five.? Actually she MIGHT drop out of my top twenty-five but I'm just happy I'm not the only one who will have her up there.

If anything, Chiggy will continue to go up, not down. Being as good as she was when her charisma could have carried her without her having to work hard is a strong case for her. She's basically a super worker version of Steve Austin.

 

Arn has come full circle and is now officially and overrated wrestler.? I love Arn Anderson.? He's one of my five favorite wrestlers ever, he was a great tag wrestler and no one ever had a better move than his spinebuster, but I don't see him as even being a serious contender for top twenty-five of all time.? I know he's been "rediscovered" in recent years, but I can't in good conscience vote him higher than someone like say Jack Brisco who is on the cusp of my top twenty-five right now.? Wouldn't even dream of rating him higher than Windham.

I don't agree - at all - with the people who say that Arn can be argued as being better than Flair, but every time I find a new Arn match, my opinion of him goes up that much more. There was really very little he couldn't do. If anything, he's a sad reminder of the dip the overall talent pool has taken in the past 10-15 years or so. If Arn was young now, being able to work and talk like that, he'd be getting pushed as a main event guy. Back then, he was considered a strong midcarder. Times have changed. Brisco is probably someone who could be ranked above Arn, but I feel like I'd be ranking him higher out of obligation if I went higher. And I'm someone who has definitely enjoyed the Jack Brisco I've seen. Like Kong, probably higher in a few years. As for Windham, I love the guy, as you well know, but after 1993, he didn't just fall a few notches. He wasn't even good anymore. I'd be less lenient on Windham's decline if he would have reached the level his talents deserved *and then* slipped off, but he was on the cusp of greatness and fell short. And it was pretty much all his fault.

 

Taue and Hase both seem a wee bit high to me, but I can understand their placements.? Odd that I was thinking I might end up rating Taue higher than anyone at 28 or 29 and both you and Oles have him higher than me.

While he was obviously the fourth best of the four, I already feel like there's an unreasonable gap between him and M-K-K on this list. I just can't justify putting Taue any higher. As for Hase, I'm curious where you think the right place is for him, because you've told me at various points that I've had him both way too high and way too low.

 

Actually I thought for sure I would end up rating Morton higher than nearly everyone after my most recent draft where I had Ricky at 32.? Now it looks like I won't

I could see going even higher for Morton and could probably justify it, but I'm happy with where I have him.

 

Fuchi strikes me as the first really out of place pick.? I disagree on Tenryu, Arn and some others but I can understand where you are coming from.? Fuchi I don't even really understand.? Fuchi wasn't even on my list until my most recent draft, not because I didnt think he belonged, but because he fails to stand out in my mind and I nearly forgot him.? I'd need to be sold on his placement in a top thirty.

I was thinking about those great exchanges with Kikuchi in those six-man tags in the early 90s and I was thinking about some specific spots of his that were just so mean-spirited and awesomely cruel. The guy stood on Kikuchi's chin! That said, he ended up taking the plunge to a point where he completely fell off my list, because while I enjoyed that, I couldn't justify having him so high with Lioness Asuka and Mick Foley watching from the bleachers.

 

28. Fuerza Guerrera

29. Billy Robinson

30. Jaguar Yokota

31. The Destroyer

32. Vader

 

I have Yokota MUCH higher.

I ended up pushing her higher.

 

Glad to see another person with Billy over Beyer, but I take Billy over Beyer by a landslide myself.

Billy over Beyer is just a case of me really liking Billy Robinson as a threat to his opponent. As much as I love Destroyer, I haven't come across any of his stuff yet where it doesn't look like he's having the time of his life in the ring. Sure, that's awesome most of the time, but I want to see him show some hate too.

 

Early 30's seems like a perfect slot for Vader.

 

33. Bull Nakano

34. Dick Murdoch

35. Dynamite Kid

36. Devil Masami

37. Rey Misterio Jr

38. Kiyoshi Tamura

39. Villano III

40. Nick Bockwinkel

 

While I am glad Bock made your top fifty, he's still way too low for my liking.? He was a complete wrestler, who suffers from the fact that alot of his best stuff will never be seen and what is available is mostly clipped or JIP.? Of course the same could be said for Lawler and I think Bock is a bit better.? Just a really versatile wrestler who was a more creative and interesting carrier and lead worker than anyone I've ever seen.

I wanted to rank Bock higher, but he's at the point where things started getting tough. I think I did move him up a little, but not significantly.

 

I think Rey is low also.? I think I'm going to end up rating him higher than most people.? I have watched alot of him in recent months and it's incredible how far ahead of the curve he was in the mid-90's both in terms of high flying, speed and energy.? Hitting a second peak on tv during this era only raises his stock.

I ended up putting Vader and Rey next to each other. They seem like a really appropriate comparison.

 

I'll have DK lower than most.? First draft I had him at 44 and he has gone down since.? Not way down but down.? He's a guy who I really want to like more than I do, but I just don't get wrapped up into many of his matches, even though I can acknowledge that technically he's excellent.

The only differences I see in Benoit and DK is that Benoit had a much longer run and in many cases, wrestled much lesser talent and got great results. That was enough to put Benoit quite a bit higher, but I find this a strange charge to make unless you also think the same weakness applies to Benoit.

 

41. Dump Matsumoto

42. Kazuo Yamazaki

43. Bret Hart

44. Shinya Hashimoto

45. Pirata Morgan

46. Barry Windham

47. Marc Rocco

48. Atlantis

49. Ricky Steamboat

50. Jack Brisco

 

Alot of interesting stuff in here.

 

I didn't rate Dump and won't.? She's an interesting figure in general.? A few years back no one would have really dreamed of rating Dump at all in a top 100 on the IWC.? Honestly before I went to Smarkschoice I never really read anyone present her in a positive light as a worker.? I was probably the only person I knew on the net who thought she was good in the ring and I don't recall ever really thinking she was better than that.? She's one of those wierd wrestlers that seems to have a corner of supporters that REALLY support her and a corner of folks on the otherside that have no interest at all.? I'm not really in either camp, but I won't rate her.

I love Dump. She may be the best heel of all time.

 

Yamazaki is going to end up overrated because Oles and others went nuts talking about how underrated he was in the pimping lists.? I don't think he's bad and I don't think your placement is bad at all, but I have a feeling he's going to end up in a few peoples top twenty-fives and that's insane to me.

Yeah, that is a little high for him. I'm comfortable with my placing for him. As much as I like Yamazaki, there is a significant gap between him and Takada. Significant.

 

Another interestig similarity between our list...Bret and Hash are right on top of each other.? I'm not sure if I have them neck and neck anymore, but I did for the first three drafts, though they were a couple of notches down from where you have them.? The comparison between these guys seems kinda of wierd at first, but I honestly can't decide whom I think was better (Hash seems to me to have naturally been better, while Bret has probably been in more matches I have liked..oddly I get the feeling this is the EXACT opposite opinion most people would have).

I'd actually say Bret was both naturally better and has been in more matches that I've liked. But not by a huge margin or anything.

 

Rocco is someone I'm iffy on.? I want to include him and want to have him relatively high, but in order to do so, I'd have to dredge up a bit more of his work.? Not sure I'll have the time.

Rocco dropped quite a bit on my list, not because of any weakness on his part, but because I realized that while I love what I've seen, I haven't seen enough to justify ranking him so highly.

 

51. Bobby Eaton

52. Juventud Guerrera

53. Dynamite Kansai

54. Ted DiBiase

55. Volk Han

56. Satoru Sayama

 

I think we have Eaton in the exact same spot.? It's strange because I really don't think the gap between Eaton and Ricky Morton is all that significant, but Morton's run of singles work being so much better than Bobby's limited streak ends up with him being twenty slots higher on my list.

 

Juventud made his first appearance on a draft of mine, last go around.? Believe I had him at 90. When he was on he was sensational, but he was off alot and I'm already doubting if he's going to make the final cut, espcially if I end up trying to get guys like Rocco on.? Very surprised he's so high on your list.

The Rey matches in AAA, and in 1999 WCW, it's hard to say who was better between him and Benoit.

 

Kansai seems low to me, but I love Kansai.

 

Dibase seems really low to me actually, given your love for Mid-South.? I really expected him to be an easy top fifty pick for you.? I'm surprised you would have him behind Bret, Steamboat, or Fuchi for example.

DiBiase was great at wrestling one type of match -- Southern style. I think he's awesome, obviously, but if you look at Bret's best and Steamboat's best, it seems a little more varied.

 

I basically agree on Han.? He may actually be slightly lower on my final ballot which will not endear me to some folks.

Han deserves a spot on every list, but one of the biggest challenges a wrestler faces is having great matches with a rough schedule. Another big challenge is delivering in situations where it's not expected. Han is more impressive than even Flair and Jumbo at certain aspects of his game, but wrestling is a marathon, not a sprint. That's the best way I know to put it.

 

Sayama is someone I really don't think should be on anyones list and I'm disappointed that he placed so highly on yours.? I suppose if you are grading on influence he has to make the list, but influence is a very small part of what I was thinking about when compiling my ballot.? Sayama really was never a very good wrestler and he had a very short career.

He fell quite a bit. Kobayashi and DK deserve major credit for getting him so over as a superstar and world class wrestler, though.

 

Asuka didn't make your list and I think she just about slaughters Sayama across the board.? I'd pretty comfortable rate Kobayashi over Sayama, and Kobayashi is a low end pick to me.? Fujanami was way better both as a juinor, against DK, and overall career v. career.? Hell Kurt Angle, whom I know you aren't high on as a serious contender for this list, absolutely obliterates Sayama in terms of number of good matches and fluidity at minimum.? I actually think Angle is a way better candidate, and I think Cobra might actually be as good a junior from the period.? A bad pick IMO, and probably the only one on your list that I really can't see myself finding any common ground with you on.

Angle is a more athletic version of Tazz. Sayama's case is significantly stronger to me, just because he had good matches in more than one style.

 

57. Rick Martel

58. Akira Maeda

59. Randy Savage

60. El Samurai

61. Steve Austin

62. Mariko Yoshida

63. Javier Cruz

64. Sgt. Slaughter

65. Dan Kroffat

 

Wow, Martel seems high in a way and I like Martel.? I love his AWA work and he tended to have really good big time matches when given the chance, but he didn't get very many chances at all during his physical prime.? He's a guy that I don't think we will ever know for sure how good he could have been.? Very strange to see him so tight with Dibase on your list.

 

All of the rest of that is pretty non-objectionable to me and I have alot of the same names bunched in together in roughly the same range.? Slaughter over Kroffat is an interesting issue to me as it is an exact comparison I was contemplating the other night.? I'd be interested to see why you ended up taking Sarge over Dan.

Sarge over Kroffat came down to better singles matches.

 

Martel was every bit as good as Steamboat without the opportunity.

 

I'd also be interested to see why Austin was so far behind Bret.

Hard-nosed brawler who throws some damn weak punches and kicks, and has that stupid Thesz press move and that gyrating elbow drop. People talk about his brilliant 2001, but I see matches with Benoit, one with Rock, and then him carrying Angle to a much better than expected match, but I don't see this consistent greatness from him. I've never seen Austin carry someone from nothing to something. I also have a problem with Austin squashing guys like Jericho and Booker and compare that with what Bret did with the 1-2-3 Kid. Austin is good, very good. And at his peak, he was great. But he was never this blowaway guy anywhere approaching the absolute cream of the crop for me. Love his matches - mostly - as a heel, but as a babyface, I don't feel like he let his opponents have enough time on offense.

 

66. Owen Hart

67. Brazo de Oro

68. Adrian Adonis

69. Shinjiro Otani

70. Tully Blanchard

71. Bill Dundee

 

It's kinda funny that I think at the end of the day I'm gonna end up rating Dundee higher than you are ? Ohtani is low to me, but I get why some won't rate him in the top fifty.? He's definately a disputably name.? Tully being that far below Arn is puzziling to me.? I may end up rating Adonis higher than anyone else as I love workers of that ilk and he may have been the best of the bunch.? Owen is low for my liking, but I'm glad that he'll be on your list as I fear he will be left off of many lists.

Owen went higher for me. I don't think you need to worry about his placing, Dylan. Why would you? Those Bret matches will push him in this list with most of the voters. Tully jumped up quite a bit on my second draft. Otani had one great year and very little I've enjoyed outside of it.

 

72. Manami Toyota

73. Tatsumi Fujinami

74. William Regal

75. Bob Backlund

76. Dennis Condrey

77. Kuniaki Kobayashi

78. Dory Funk Jr.

79. El Texano

80. Buddy Rose

 

Toyota is WAYYY low and I'm a huge critic of Toyota.? I'm really amazed to see her so low.? Way too many great matches to be placed below someone like Rick Martel for example.?

 

Fujanami and Regal are guys I'm having big time trouble with.? Regal comes in a couplet with Finlay to me.? I think Regal has had the better career, but Finlay the better peak.?  Either way I can't seperate the two but I have immense trouble relating them in relationship to anything else.? Fujanami is hard for me to rate because his potential was so much greater than his output.

Toyota ended up going quite a bit higher as well.

 

Finlay dropped off my list. I've enjoyed him recently, but honestly, he was really ineffective in WCW and was seen by the average viewer as being in that same group as guys like Mike Enos and Van Hammer and Emory Hale. Getting over yourself and your opponent and matches having heat has to count for something at some point.

 

Of course, part of me is still bitter about the crappy Best of 7 booking with Benoit/Booker where Finlay, the least over of the three, was the champ who didn't do much.

 

Backlund isn't on my list and won't be.? I think he's a half assed wrestler in his best bouts, that puts alot out there for parts of matches and very little for other parts.? Very unengaging also.? I just can't vote for him.

I think he's way more engaging than Finlay, at least WCW-era Finlay. I also really enjoyed his renaissance in 1994.

 

I want to find room for Condrey but haven't yet.? He may end up number 100, if I end up bumping Danielson and Joe off the list (I'm leaning toward doing that now).

I was watching Lightning Kid/Jerry Lynn matches from Global last night and Waltman was on the same level with modern Danielson and Joe in those matches. But I wouldn't have Waltman on a list like this, which is why I think it's way too early for those two to be on a list like this.

 

Kobayashi is a bit high..I think I had Dory right in the same range..stunned to see Buddy Rose on the list at all and I really wonder what you based that on...his best stuff was Portland allegedly and there isn't an awful lot available.? I loved him in the AWA, but I couldn't find a place for him based on that.

Those Rockers matches were great, and he was the glue that held them together. Also enjoyed his matches in early 80s WWF with Snuka and Backlund, and the Portland I've seen against guys like DK, Adonis, Hennig, etc. has rocked.

 

81. Giant Baba

82. Jake Roberts

83. Antonio Inoki

84. Steve Williams

85. Taka Michinoku

86. Brian Pillman

87. Don Muraco

88. Shawn Michaels

89. El Satanico

90. Fit Finlay

 

I LOVE Jake being the bridge from Baba to Inoki. ? Baba and Inoki are maybe the two most dificult wrestlers to place on this list and puting Jake inbetween them is rich.? Of course I don't think Jake belongs on the list, but that's a minority opinioin it appears.

 

I think Williams is too low, but I see why Steve may not be high on some peoples list.? Unmotivated Steve can be down right embarrasing.

 

Pillman will be higher on my list, but not by much.? Taka just made an appearance on my most recnet balloting and he's right near the bottom.? I have Michaels in almost exactly the same place.? Muraco I had and fell off my list.? There are alot of really good Don matches and alot of really disappointing ones.? Finlay I think is low.

 

91. The Rock

92. Jerry Estrada

93. Ron Garvin

94. Roddy Piper

95. Angel Azteca

96. Curt Hennig

97. Americo Rocca

98. Naoki Sano

99. Rick Rude

100. Kyoko Inoue

 

Ron Garvin?? Wow.? I know you like him more than most, but I never would have guessed he would crack anyones top hundred.? Not a bad pick for the end part of a list, but I wasn't expecting it.

Those matches with Flair look better and better with age. Not really on the same level as Flair/Steamboat or Flair/Windham, but probably on the next tier down in terms of Flair feuds. And Garvin brought every bit as much to those matches as Flair did. I also love that he's still influential in 2006, with Roderick Strong basically being a carbon copy of Ron Garvin.

 

Piper I think is going to get an assload of votes in the 90's and end up being one of those guys who does better overall than he did on any list.? I just get the feeling that he appeals enough to the more "work oriented" fans because of a few high profile matches and the fact that he was so energetic, plus I know he's going to do well with the Insane Clown style voters.

I think most of the IC-style voters have been phased out at this point, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

The Rock won't be on my list, but I can't fault anyone for rating him.

 

Hennig and Rude seem low to me, but I"m just glad to see them appearing.? Same with Kyoko, whom I expect to get shunned.

Kyoko ended up going up for a while and then back down when I made room for the new people. Hennig went quite a bit higher and Rude went right below Michaels. I think best Rude is actually better than best Michaels, but Michaels had a better overall run.

[Guest DylanWaco]

On Hase:

 

Actually looking at my list right now, I think he may finish top twenty-five on my list also In fact I could conceievably have him one spot higher than you have him now. It's wierd, because he doesnt' reflexively seem like he should be quite that high, but when I look at where I have him now (30), I see room to move up, not down.

 

On Barry and Jack v. Arn

 

Arn is a tough guy for me. A part of me wants to rate him top thirty-five or so, but then I look at who I would have to rate him ahead of in order to do that and I just don't know. Can I really justify Arn over Rick Morton, when I think Morton was a prototype worker? Can I rate him above Dick Murdoch who was maybe the best guy ever at being "legit roughneck"? Can I rate him above Adrian Adonis, another prototype wrestler, who was maybe the best ever with the big bumping badass big man fusion ticket? I'm not saying he's clearly worse, or even worse at all, but it's tough. I don't find it tough to say that Jack Brisco was better than any of those guys (well, maybe Morton ). Same with Barry. To me both guys have peaks and big match performances that hit me harder than anything Arn has done. It's not a knock on Arn, but Arn's biggest strength is his versatility and Barry and Jack are two of the most versatile wrestlers ever PLUS they had better peak runs, comparable to Arn in a tag setting and better in singles action.

 

On Vader and Rey

 

They are a perfect couplet to me, like Finlay and Regal. I can't imagine having more than a few spots inbetween them. I have Rey higher, but it's really close and I think they are two guys who are perfect examples of how comparison can sometimes help both parties.

 

On Benoit and DK

 

I have Benoit forty points higher because of longevity in big part, but also because I think that while Benoit might lack a truly mind blowing match, he has a huge variety of good matches with an enoromously diverse group of people.

 

On Juvy

 

Loved him in 98 and 99 and in flashes of work from 96 and 97, but Juvy wrote the book on being sloppy as shit. Really there was a big stretch when he couldn't get through a match without blowing something. Even the Juvy/Blitz match from 99, during Juvy's best run featured one blown spot via Juvy. He's on my list now, but I don't see him climbing any higher than he is and he's likely to drop out

 

On Dibase v. Steamboat

 

I actually think Dibase was much more versatile than Steamer. Besides the obvious "face/heel" issue at hand, Steamboat totally failed to show hatred and fire several times in bouts when that was an absolutely essential component to the story that was laid out by the angle. I still have Steamboat higher, but in terms of mastering diverse styles or versatility or anything inbetween I don't see how Steamboat is better than Dibase.

 

On Angle v. Sayama

 

I think Angle early in his career had some diversity to his work, but more importantly I think he has FAR more good matches and his best matches are FAR better than Sayama's. But then I don't think very highly of DK/Sayama.

 

On Martel and Steamboat

 

I agree

 

On Owen

 

I just get paranoid when I see people toss out shit about how great Hogan or Jake are and then seem indifferent or skeptical about the placement of someone like Owen, who in my view is miles better than either of those guys.

 

On Finlay/Backlund

 

No doubt Bob was far more over, but I think he was a guy who wrestled half matches and that's not going to get him near a list of mine. Finlay wrestles full matches, in a totally unique style. Right now he's probably the best wrestler on tv (Only Joe and Rey really have an argument IMO).

 

On Joe/Danielson

 

My biggest beef with voting for either of them is that their careers are FAR from complete and their best days are likely ahead of them. It just seems wrong to vote for someone who you are pretty sure has better stuff in his future. It'd be like voting Albert Pujoles into the MLB HoF now.

 

I think I'm going to end up including Johnny Valentine. Maybe Bill Eadie also. That'll be my controversial contribution.

[silverwidow]

On Joe/Danielson

 

My biggest beef with voting for either of them is that their careers are FAR from complete and their best days are likely ahead of them. It just seems wrong to vote for someone who you are pretty sure has better stuff in his future. It'd be like voting Albert Pujoles into the MLB HoF now.

I don't think the Albert Pujols analogy works because he's probably the best young hitter since Ted Williams; neither Joe nor Danielson would come close to that mark in the wrestling sense.

[Loss]

Ok, Kobashi switches places with Liger, who switches places with Eddy. Looking at that now, there's really no argument whatsoever for Kobashi being below Eddy Guerrero. At least not one I can think of. I also made a few other adjustments. Top 10 is now Flair, Jumbo, Kawada, Takada, Kobashi, Casas, Liger, Guerrero, Santo, Lawler. I'm happy with that.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

You and I think a lot alike, Loss. Lot of thoughts but some lucha opinions:

 

6. Negro Casas

9. El Hijo del Santo

I ended up going with Santo over Casas. (Both were in my top 5.) Either Casas or Dandy is at his peak the best wrestler I've ever seen short of Jumbo Tsuruta, but Santo is the Ric Flair of lucha in terms of insane consistency and longevity and having great matches with everyone. I actually think Santo has more ****+ matches than anyone other than the All Japan guys, and having had them in more styles over a longer period of time I'm more impressed by him.

 

15. El Dandy

18. Blue Panther

Again, I went the other way with these two in pretty much the same spots. Looking back over my list I'd probably have Dandy a bit higher (I may have overrated Vader), but this seems about right.

 

I really can't emphasize to people enough that El Dandy in his prime was absolutely a Kobashi or Hokuto level worker. It's not even close between him and Benoit, for example.

 

27. Fuerza Guerrera

Way too high on the merits, IMO, but he's such an awesome prick that I can see it.

 

39. Villano III

I had him a bit higher. He's so awesome and has the true classic matches that helps bump him up, but when you realize that he had a reputation as a superworker for nearly a decade before we have any footage of him at all it makes you realize how scary good he was. Absolutely a guy who with more footage could be a top-20 candidate.

 

47. Atlantis

Has the matches but to me there's a piece of the puzzle missing; I can see him here.

 

57. Pirata Morgan

Jose has a Pirata/Faraon bloodbath I'm dying to see. I don't really hold him in the same regard Jose does but he's seen a lot more of him, obviously; I didn't hold MS-1 in the high regard Ohtani's Jacket did and then when I saw his bloodbath with Sangre Chicana everything just clicked.

 

68. Brazo de Oro

Yeah, that's about right. Brazo de Plata gets the love (and it's not like he doesn't deserve it) but well before they were fat comedy workers the Brazos were incredibly awesome workers. I'm not saying he should rate above Bobby Eaton, for example, but he was a hell of a lot more versatile and watching Oro in a title match? say, the awesome one in 1989 with Pirata? would absolutely blow people's minds, as he was light years beyond anyone in America as a technical wrestler.

 

74. Javier Cruz

I had him quite a bit higher for the awesome RnR/MX type feud with Los Bravos, the great hair matches, the early 90s heel run, etc. I've never seen the 84 hair match with Dandy but it's on my list... Cruz rules.

 

90. El Satanico

Way too low, IMO? have you seen the 83/84 footage Bob Barnett has? There's some ridiculously awesome stuff there? from what was probably the MIDDLE of his prime. He's been usually very good and sometimes great for another 20 years since then. I like Satanico more than a lot of people, though.

 

96. El Texano

AWESOME. I had him a lot higher (in the 50s), but he's one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. Another guy who has tons of truly great stuff on tape but whose prime (with the Missionaries) isn't on tape. If it was he'd be even higher for me, likely, but what there is suggests their rep was very well deserved.

 

98. Jerry Estrada

You have to love Estrada.

 

So glad to see the lucha love? some guys you don't have I'd give serious consideration to are Solar I, MS-1, and Americo Rocca. (I saw he was on your first draft.) I left Rocca off and that was a mistake, he's fucking tremendous. You've really got to get to pimping some of these matches, people write the lucha hardcores off as crazies but they take you seriously because they know your opinions on other kinds of wrestling.

[Loss]

Regarding Satanico, you are definitely right. Those Koshinaka matches were awesome, and so is the Estrada match from 1990. Have you seen the Kosh matches? I thought about it and moved him up. I don't feel comfortable sending him too much higher when I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of stuff, but I can comfortably put him above the people below him for sure.

 

I considered including Perro Jr. after watching that match with Santo from 8/04. Have you seen that? Holy mackerel, what a match! While I'd probably say Perro is as good as or better than Danielson and Joe, I didn't include him because he still has another 20 years or so ahead of him, more than likely, and he may end up being the first lucha libre superworker who doesn't leave for the US and has almost all of his career footage readily available.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

The Satanico/Koshinaka matches are superb. I find it hilarious that so many self-professed old school fans would outright refuse to watch these matches. These two work the Mid-Atlantic style better than virtually anyone in America could have done at the time.

 

My list:

 

1 Jumbo Tsuruta

2 Toshiaki Kawada

3 El Hijo del Santo

4 Kenta Kobashi

5 Negro Casas

6 Ric Flair

7 Eddy Guerrero

8 Nobuhiko Takada

9 Dynamite Kid

10 Mitsuharu Misawa

11 Chris Benoit

12 Rey Mysterio Jr.

13 Vader

14 Blue Panther

15 Billy Robinson

16 Jack Brisco

17 Jushin Liger

18 El Dandy

19 Jaguar Yakota

20 Stan Hansen

21 Chigusa Nagayo

22 Terry Funk

23 Devil Masami

24 Bret Hart

25 Akira Hokuto

26 Harley Race

27 Hiroshi Hase

28 Jerry Lawler

29 Ricky Steamboat

30 El Satanico

31 Barry Windham

32 Villano III

33 The Destroyer

34 Steve Austin

35 Aja Kong

36 Mark Rocco

37 Solar I

38 Brazo de Oro

39 Shinya Hashimoto

40 Dos Caras

41 Steve Regal

42 Javier Cruz

43 Fit Finlay

44 Fuerza Guerrera

45 Arn Anderson

46 Kyoko Inoue

47 El Texano

48 Genichiro Tenryu

49 Lioness Asuka

50 Bobby Eaton

51 Mayumi Ozaki

52 Terry Gordy

53 Dory Funk Jr.

54 Volk Han

55 Silver King

56 Giant Baba

57 Tiger Mask I

58 Juventud Guerrera

59 Akira Taue

60 Pirata Morgan

61 Kazuo Yamazaki

62 Tully Blanchard

63 Brazo de Plata

64 Tatsumi Fujinami

65 Tommy Rogers

66 Atlantis

67 Psicosis

68 Bull Nakano

69 Ted DiBiase

70 Akira Maeda

71 Johnny Saint

72 MS1

73 Shiro Koshinaka

74 Jake Roberts

74 The Great Muta

76 Davey Boy Smith

77 Jerry Estrada

78 Dan Kroffat

79 Doug Furnas

80 Mick McManus

81 Dump Matsumoto

82 Ricky Morton

83 Super Astro

84 Lizmark

85 Emilio Charles Jr.

86 Ultimo Guerrero

87 Eddie Gilbert

88 Chavo Guerrero

89 Jun Akiyama

90 Mascara Ano 2000

91 Steve Grey

92 Kiyoshi Tamura

93 El Signo

94 La Parka

95 Undertaker

96 Mariko Yoshida

97 Universo 2000

98 Sycho Sid

99 Samoa Joe

100 Kurt Angle

...

1001 Shawn Michaels

1002 Manami Toyota

 

There's stuff I would change on here but then if I did it now I would want to change it in a couple of months anyway. The real misses are MS-1 and El Dandy (too low) and Vader and Harley Race (too high). Also, I just out and out blanked on Dick Murdoch. He deserves a spot above Sycho Sid. It's a reasonable list, though.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

Some other thoughts on the rest of the world:

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Jumbo Tsuruta

NOOOOOO. I have nothing bad to say about Ric Flair but Jumbo should be the unanimous number one. He's the best wrestler I've ever seen.

 

[

24. Akira Taue

25. Ricky Morton

Wow, twice over.

 

28. Billy Robinson

30. The Destroyer

Awesome. Beyer ranks up with Liger and Race for me among the most overrated wrestlers among hardcore tape watchers. I'm not sure any of them would make a top 100 if I was just basing it on wrestlers I enjoy watching these days.

 

31. Vader

32. Rey Misterio Jr

I had them way way higher but also next to one another. I can't really see an argument for either of these two beind a guy like Taue or Morton. Vader I may have overrated because making it all over the world counts for a lot with me, but I can't really see how Rey ends up this low.

 

35. Dynamite Kid

Where's the love?

 

45. Barry Windham

IMO if you have Hokuto as high as you do, Windham deserves a higher slot, as the argument for both is about how good they were at their best. Glad to see him above Steamboat.

 

48. Manami Toyota

Fuck that.

 

50. Jack Brisco

I see Brisco as a top 15 guy. SO AWESOME in All Japan and the 8 mm territorial footage I've seen is incredible. A guy who'd likely be top 10 for me with more footage; being so graceful and yet credible is a real hard act to pull off, and he was a master of sustained, accumulated selling.

 

54. Marc Rocco

Glad to see him up here; what a fucking MAN. Much better than Rude at Rude's shtick.

 

56. El Samurai

58. Owen Hart

62. Bob Backlund

Ugh, I can't stand these guys, especially Samurai. I wouldn't have any of them near a top 200 list.

The rest is so tied into personal tastes it's hard to judge. Nitpicking aside I'm feeling this; really well-balanced and fun.

[Guest DylanWaco]

The Satanico/Koshinaka matches are superb. I find it hilarious that so many self-professed old school fans would outright refuse to watch these matches. These two work the Mid-Atlantic style better than virtually anyone in America could have done at the time.

 

My list:

 

1 Jumbo Tsuruta

2 Toshiaki Kawada

3 El Hijo del Santo

4 Kenta Kobashi

5 Negro Casas

6 Ric Flair

7 Eddy Guerrero

8 Nobuhiko Takada

9 Dynamite Kid

10 Mitsuharu Misawa

11 Chris Benoit

12 Rey Mysterio Jr.

13 Vader

14 Blue Panther

15 Billy Robinson

16 Jack Brisco

17 Jushin Liger

18 El Dandy

19 Jaguar Yakota

20 Stan Hansen

21 Chigusa Nagayo

22 Terry Funk

23 Devil Masami

24 Bret Hart

25 Akira Hokuto

26 Harley Race

27 Hiroshi Hase

28 Jerry Lawler

29 Ricky Steamboat

30 El Satanico

31 Barry Windham

32 Villano III

33 The Destroyer

34 Steve Austin

35 Aja Kong

36 Mark Rocco

37 Solar I

38 Brazo de Oro

39 Shinya Hashimoto

40 Dos Caras

41 Steve Regal

42 Javier Cruz

43 Fit Finlay

44 Fuerza Guerrera

45 Arn Anderson

46 Kyoko Inoue

47 El Texano

48 Genichiro Tenryu

49 Lioness Asuka

50 Bobby Eaton

51 Mayumi Ozaki

52 Terry Gordy

53 Dory Funk Jr.

54 Volk Han

55 Silver King

56 Giant Baba

57 Tiger Mask I

58 Juventud Guerrera

59 Akira Taue

60 Pirata Morgan

61 Kazuo Yamazaki

62 Tully Blanchard

63 Brazo de Plata

64 Tatsumi Fujinami

65 Tommy Rogers

66 Atlantis

67 Psicosis

68 Bull Nakano

69 Ted DiBiase

70 Akira Maeda

71 Johnny Saint

72 MS1

73 Shiro Koshinaka

74 Jake Roberts

74 The Great Muta

76 Davey Boy Smith

77 Jerry Estrada

78 Dan Kroffat

79 Doug Furnas

80 Mick McManus

81 Dump Matsumoto

82 Ricky Morton

83 Super Astro

84 Lizmark

85 Emilio Charles Jr.

86 Ultimo Guerrero

87 Eddie Gilbert

88 Chavo Guerrero

89 Jun Akiyama

90 Mascara Ano 2000

91 Steve Grey

92 Kiyoshi Tamura

93 El Signo

94 La Parka

95 Undertaker

96 Mariko Yoshida

97 Universo 2000

98 Sycho Sid

99 Samoa Joe

100 Kurt Angle

...

1001 Shawn Michaels

1002 Manami Toyota

 

There's stuff I would change on here but then if I did it now I would want to change it in a couple of months anyway. The real misses are MS-1 and El Dandy (too low) and Vader and Harley Race (too high). Also, I just out and out blanked on Dick Murdoch. He deserves a spot above Sycho Sid. It's a reasonable list, though.

>>The Satanico/Koshinaka matches are superb. I find it hilarious that so many self-professed old school fans would outright refuse to watch these matches. These two work the Mid-Atlantic style better than virtually anyone in America could have done at the time.

 

I'm legit curious as to who these fans are? I'm not saying they don't exist and there are a couple of people I can see saying that they woudln't watch any lucha, but I would gladly watch those matches or just about any other match that was given even mild praise.

 

Not gonna run through your whole list, because I already did it with Loss making my thoughts pretty well known on most wrestlers. That said..

 

Interesting to see both Davey and Furnas on your list. I can see both guys making the list and I"m a little surprised Furnas hasn't been discussed much at all, but both guys seem pretty high. I would have guessed they would have been 90-100 guys forthe most part and seeing them ahead of Ricky Morton is pretty puzziling to me. I wonder if anyone else will vote for Furnas?

 

I thought for sure no one would vote Billy Robinson higher than me...looks like someone will

 

Most glaring ommison to me is actually Bockwinkle, followed by Murdoch, but I suspect both guys are going to left off of alot of list because Murdoch seems to always get forgotten, and alot of people haven't seen much Bock.

 

I think DK and Bret are way too high, but shit, Windham is in your top thirty five so I ain't gonna bitch much.

[Guest DylanWaco]

Right now I have Vader, Morton, Taue and Rey all in the same cluster of workers between 25-30. I really can't see why anyone of them would be clearly better than anyone else.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

 

I'm legit curious as to who these fans are?  I'm not saying they don't exist and there are a couple of people I can see saying that they woudln't watch any lucha, but I would gladly watch those matches or just about any other match that was given even mild praise.

I was thinking about the WC/KM crowd that won't watch lucha because it's not "legit," which is funny because Mexico has often promoted the most high-end pro-style technical wrestling in the world.

 

Interesting to see both Davey and Furnas on your list.  I can see both guys making the list and I"m a little surprised Furnas hasn't been discussed much at all, but both guys seem pretty high.  I would have guessed they would have been 90-100 guys forthe most part and seeing them ahead of Ricky Morton is pretty puzziling to me.  I wonder if anyone else will vote for Furnas?

Honestly I don't see how someone votes for Kroffat and not Furnas; they're a pretty inseperable unit to me. I know most people see Kroffat as a much higher end worker and this might just be an idiosyncratic opinion of mine, but there it is.

 

Davey was freaking great. It's a shame his post-97 runs were such shit, because he has good to great work in so many styles all over the world. I don't buy that he was carried through all his best stuff, either.

 

Morton I just don't think was all that great. I may have underrated him but he was pretty damn repetitive.

 

I thought for sure no one would vote Billy Robinson higher than me...looks like someone will

Has anyone ever seen a Robinson match that wasn't awesome? It's not like there's all that much footage out there but Jesus hell what a wrestler.

 

Most glaring ommison to me is actually Bockwinkle,

I haven't been so impressed by what I've seen that I had to put him on the list; this is more a problem of not having seen a lot, though.

 

I think DK and Bret are way too high,

I'm not a huge Hart fan and I'd drop him before raising him but he was a great, great wrestler. Dynamite Kid was, if anything, too low. I always bought into everything he did.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

Concerning Ricky Morton -- I've never really understood the hype behind him. As far as tag wrestling goes, I don't see how he was better than Rogers, who was more well-rounded, or Kikuchi, who had better matches and was a better bumper - which, AFAIC, made his face-in-perils more interesting and brutal to watch.

[The Thread Killer]

The Kikuchi/Morton comparison is interesting...I had actually never though of that before, but you can't argue that Kikuchi didn't have the whole face in peril act down to a science in AJPW. Hell, a couple of weeks ago I saw Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. KENTA and Marifuji and I was still entertained by Kikuchi, and he's basically held together by bandages at this point.

 

I was saddened when Kobashi went with Honda as his partner to go after (and win) the GHC Tag Titles over Kikuchi. I guess they wanted Kobashi and Honda to be "Team We Can't Walk" or "Team Huge Kneepads"

[Loss]

Concerning Ricky Morton -- I've never really understood the hype behind him. As far as tag wrestling goes, I don't see how he was better than Rogers, who was more well-rounded, or Kikuchi, who had better matches and was a better bumper - which, AFAIC, made his face-in-perils more interesting and brutal to watch.

Rogers was awesome and probably had a greater ability to work in any environment, but the deciding factor for me is that Morton also had a successful, money-drawing program on top with Ric Flair that produced great matches, and also that the Rock & Rolls showed that a tag team of 190 lb guys could get over as not only underdogs, but underdog main eventers and underdog heavyweights as well.

 

I'm interested in how Jumbo/Kikuchi would have done as a short-term singles program. It probably would have rocked.

[Loss]

Sorry I'm just now responding to this.

 

NOOOOOO. I have nothing bad to say about Ric Flair but Jumbo should be the unanimous number one. He's the best wrestler I've ever seen.

I agree that Flair at his best can't touch Jumbo at his best. The difference maker for me is that Flair had the same results, no matter which audience he was performing in front of -- big or small, involved or not involved. I think "lazy" is overstating Jumbo when Meltzer refers to him that way, but it is true that there is a difference between Jumbo's big show stuff and his small show stuff. I also don't know that Jumbo could do the things Flair did with Luger or Sting, although maybe I'm wrong about that, since he pulled it off with Kerry Von Erich. Jumbo is a bonafide legend and I can't say anything bad about him.

 

24. Akira Taue

25. Ricky Morton

 

Wow, twice over.

Not quite sure where you're coming from, but I know while you're not a Morton hater, you're not a huge supporter either. Looking again, I'd probably put him even higher, ahead of Taue and maybe some others.

 

Awesome. Beyer ranks up with Liger and Race for me among the most overrated wrestlers among hardcore tape watchers. I'm not sure any of them would make a top 100 if I was just basing it on wrestlers I enjoy watching these days.

I'm a big fan of Destroyer, but Robinson had just as good as results with Baba and probably Inoki (I haven't seen the '71 match yet). I also have yet to find a single BR match I haven't liked. Destroyer I like almost everything, but sometimes, I do finally want to see him put his game face on and be more aggressive and not just "fun". That said, he's probably the most "fun" wrestler I've ever seen.

 

31. Vader

32. Rey Misterio Jr

 

I had them way way higher but also next to one another. I can't really see an argument for either of these two beind a guy like Taue or Morton. Vader I may have overrated because making it all over the world counts for a lot with me, but I can't really see how Rey ends up this low.

Looking again, I'd probably go Vader, Rey, Morton and move Vader and Rey up about 10 spots and drop Taue just a little.

 

35. Dynamite Kid

 

Where's the love?

Dynamite is in great company. I just liked the guys above him that much more. Says a lot about how many great wrestlers there are when Dynamite Kid ends up #35.

 

45. Barry Windham

 

IMO if you have Hokuto as high as you do, Windham deserves a higher slot, as the argument for both is about how good they were at their best. Glad to see him above Steamboat.

We tried to convince Jerome of this a while back, but Jumbo Tsuruta is probably the only wrestler ever more talented than Barry Windham. There's an argument for Barry to go much higher. I don't know yet. I'll probably keep moving him around until I finally submit my ballot.

 

48. Manami Toyota

 

Fuck that.

I'm curious.

 

50. Jack Brisco

 

I see Brisco as a top 15 guy. SO AWESOME in All Japan and the 8 mm territorial footage I've seen is incredible. A guy who'd likely be top 10 for me with more footage; being so graceful and yet credible is a real hard act to pull off, and he was a master of sustained, accumulated selling.

I can't argue with anything you said. Brisco is someone who will probably be higher as I see more stuff.

 

54. Marc Rocco

 

Glad to see him up here; what a fucking MAN. Much better than Rude at Rude's shtick.

Yeah, I think the difference is that he looks so much sleazier than Rude. He's also a better wrestler. I shouldn't think this, but it would be a guilty pleasure if he was in Dragon's Gate in 2006 looking the exact same and beating up all the twinks.

 

56. El Samurai

58. Owen Hart

62. Bob Backlund

 

Ugh, I can't stand these guys, especially Samurai. I wouldn't have any of them near a top 200 list.

El Samurai was in my two favorite juniors matches of the 90s and I like his style quite a bit. Why don't you like Owen?

 

I'm thinking I'm almost at square one again anyway, because I want to make sure I include Angel Azteca, Americo Rocca, Super Astro, MS-1, Emilio Charles Jr, Solar I and maybe even Chavo Guerrero, depending on my mood. It's almost incomprehensible how many good luchadores there are.

 

I also want to talk more about your list, and will probably respond tonight or in the morning.

[Guest DylanWaco]

Concerning Ricky Morton -- I've never really understood the hype behind him. As far as tag wrestling goes, I don't see how he was better than Rogers, who was more well-rounded, or Kikuchi, who had better matches and was a better bumper - which, AFAIC, made his face-in-perils more interesting and brutal to watch.

Rogers was awesome and probably had a greater ability to work in any environment, but the deciding factor for me is that Morton also had a successful, money-drawing program on top with Ric Flair that produced great matches, and also that the Rock & Rolls showed that a tag team of 190 lb guys could get over as not only underdogs, but underdog main eventers and underdog heavyweights as well.

 

I'm interested in how Jumbo/Kikuchi would have done as a short-term singles program. It probably would have rocked.

To me Morton's longevity and the fact that he was a very good and succesful singles wrestler puts him ahead of Rogers.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

I'm interested in how Jumbo/Kikuchi would have done as a short-term singles program. It probably would have rocked.

I loved their exchanges whenever they met in tags, but I'm not sure Kikuchi had the offence to go up against someone like Jumbo in singles. It would be interesting, though.

 

I also need to watch more of the Flair/Morton program.