Dylan Waco Posted March 1, 2018 Report Share Posted March 1, 2018 Flair being so high is the first one where it feels ridiculous to me. I have disagreed with a lot of the results to one degree or another, but I can largely understand the perspectives that got people higher or lower than I think they merited being. But Flair in the top 25 just looks absurd. I had him at 49 on my own ballot so it's not like I think he's a marginal pick, but the top 25 feels like it should be reserved for people who either had insane longevity as high level workhorses, were major stars with a lasting impact on the promotions history to the point they are synonymous with the company, or otherwise defined a highly successful and engaging period in WWF/E history. Flair fits none of those criteria. Even if someone is high on his Evolution run, I can't see very many people being THAT high on it, and while I enjoyed quite a bit of old man Flair it's hard to see how that combined with the 92 run should put him in the upper tier of the list. Per the norm Flair gets the benefit of the doubt, and benefits from the historic symbol that he has become, despite the increasingly comical notion that he is a micro analyzed victim of elitist fans. Parv will be happy to know I had Ted one spot above Tito on my own ballot. I've grown to be more or a Tito fan with time, and less of a Ted fan, but the reality is that Ted at his peak had an impact on the promotion that far exceeded anything Tito ever did there. Had Santana had a great mid-card feud or two in the early 90s I might have been able to convince myself to rate him over Dibiase, because lord knows I think he's got him beat as a worker, and Ted's peak as a player wasn't terribly long. But it didn't happen, and on my ballot the Tito and Ted are part of a 5 wrestler cluster right before my list gets to what I would consider to be the upper tier. I call HHH at 21 a win. It'll probably surprise some people to learn that I did include him. I was torn about it for a while, but ultimately decided that he was too big a star for too long to leave completely off even if I do think he's the worst "top guy" the company ever had on top for more than a year. That said I couldn't rate him highly because in my view negatives matter in a project like this, especially when there are so many negatives that hurt the trajectory of so many talents and the quality of so many shows. So I stuck him at 91, knowing he would finish much higher. At 21 he's sort of the caboose of the biggest names and I think that is a fitting place for him. I can't be mad about Rey's placement. I had him a good bit higher, and I think I had very good reason for it, but he's someone where the online community swings so many different ways on him that I never expected him to make it to the top 10. Guys like Vince, Heenan, and even Reigns are people who's placement feels much "worse" to me than Rey who at least ended up in the upper stratum where he belongs. Punk ahead of him feels wrong to me, but I don't consider it a great outrage unless Punk manages to sneak into the 7 or 8 in which case I will just shake my head and remind myself that my list is the only one that matters. I have zero issue with Punk over Bryan and had him one spot over Bryan myself. That said I could go either way on it. If I ever do a podcast on my ballot I'll probably talk about that at length. I will say that Bruno being in the top 15 makes me happy. I was very concerned he would be really hurt based on how far removed we are from his era, people's unwillingness to vote for people they aren't familiar with, et. I really hope he's able to make it into the top 10, at that point I'd consider it a win, but even if he drops next I wouldn't really see it as a loss. All total there hasn't been much about the results that I have felt terribly strongly about in the negative, but I sort of expected that based on my own experience doing my ballot where I realized the people who really need to make a WWE list are very obvious and most of the ones that could fill out the rest of the ballot are the types people could see arguments for and/or wouldn't be likely to argue much about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brocklock Posted March 2, 2018 Report Share Posted March 2, 2018 I was just going to say that Flair being that high seems like the craziest placement out of this new batch. I mean, I loved his first run and he had some great moments/matches in the second run, but the highest I could go with him is mid 40's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AA484 Posted March 2, 2018 Report Share Posted March 2, 2018 Flair wasn't too high when compared with Funk and Lawler's placements, which seemed to have been based on rep as much as anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted March 2, 2018 Report Share Posted March 2, 2018 I don't see where Rey is ahead of HHH when the only one of the four caveats that Rey definitively holds over him is workrate. It looks like a lot of people voted with a higher emphasis on workrate. I think Rey easily has him beat in terms of versatility and nuance. Put the guy anywhere on the card and he was going to give you something at least pretty good. I did have Trips ranked fairly high because like Dylan said, he's too big a star (although I get why he had him ranked lower). But Rey was definitely a top 10 pick for me. Still, I'm glad he at least made the top 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted March 2, 2018 Report Share Posted March 2, 2018 I'm a bit disappointed that Bryan didn't make the top 15, but I understand he didn't quite have the longevity that some may want for that level. But I think what we got was definitely enough. Could wear any hat and deliver in any spot on the card and was easily the biggest non-Cena star since at least Jeff Hardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 2, 2018 Report Share Posted March 2, 2018 Seems to be a lot of lucha workers making the top 25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 There were two guys I thought I might be the high vote on going in, but it turns out I wasn't. They both dropped today, and they both made my top 10. They are CM Punk and Roddy Piper. My two favorite guys on the stick. I can watch their promos all day. I was surprised to see Eddie fall outside the top 10. Eddie was right outside my top 10 (like he finished here), but I thought for sure he would make it to the top 10 on this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 He finished 11th, so I don't really feel like he was "too low," but I can't escape the Foley/Savage comparison I made in the FB group months back. Savage is going to win and I'll talk about that when it happens, but I honestly think all the arguments for Savage can and do apply to Foley as do all the arguments against him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 He finished 11th, so I don't really feel like he was "too low," but I can't escape the Foley/Savage comparison I made in the FB group months back. Savage is going to win and I'll talk about that when it happens, but I honestly think all the arguments for Savage can and do apply to Foley as do all the arguments against him. Is Foley different if he disappears in 2001 and never returns? I feel like the late Flair match helps him but he's hurt by a lot of the week-to-week stuff in the 00s-10s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 All the bad/cringey stuff with Foley really took place after he was done in the ring even as a part timer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 All the bad/cringey stuff with Foley really took place after he was done in the ring even as a part timer. He was still working during some of the Melina stuff, no? But I feel like basically everything but W in NJPW looks at the total picture, not just when the guy is wrestling? But that's from the outside in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 i have never rated Foley based on how I rate a worker and i found him MEH at best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted March 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 PTBNs Greatest #WWE Wrestler Ever project is complete and the results are in! And we have now reached the Top 100! Here is Part Six 15-11. Be sure to join in the conversation! http://placetobenation.com/ptbn-greatest-wwe-wrestler-ever-results-the-top-100-15-11/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertsilva Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 PTBNs Greatest #WWE Wrestler Ever project is complete and the results are in! And we have now reached the Top 100! Here is Part Six 15-11. Be sure to join in the conversation! http://placetobenation.com/ptbn-greatest-wwe-wrestler-ever-results-the-top-100-15-11/ PTBNs Greatest #WWE Wrestler Ever project is complete and the results are in! And we have now reached the Top 100! Here is Part Six 15-11. Be sure to join in the conversation! http://placetobenation.com/ptbn-greatest-wwe-wrestler-ever-results-the-top-100-15-11/ piper was one of my top 10 that was eliminated. Had foley exactly at 11. Still have 10 remaining. Did a place to be nation podcast with my friend Greg which goes over our respective top ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Jericho is going to be the one wildly overrated guy, but I should have seen that coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertsilva Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Jericho is going to be the one wildly overrated guy, but I should have seen that coming he’s the only one that made the top 10 that surprised me. The remainder of the top 10 I have no problem duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 I didn't have Jericho top 10, but he was definitely in my top 20 based on his longevity and character work. And while he might be overrated as an in-ring worker, I've never thought he was terrible or even bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertsilva Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 I didn't have Jericho top 10, but he was definitely in my top 20 based on his longevity and character work. And while he might be overrated as an in-ring worker, I've never thought he was terrible or even bad. I had him in my top 20 as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Jericho does wildly better on the GWWE NJPW scale than on some GWE footage analysis scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Jericho does wildly better on the GWWE NJPW scale than on some GWE footage analysis scale. explain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Sure, So I didn't participate but their rubric was this: N: Nuance (Longevity, Flexibility, Intangibles)J: Jump Up Factor (Memorable Peak Matches, Moments and Storylines)P: Promo Skills & Character WorkW: Workrate At which point, in ring work itself shows up in the N (can they work a bunch of different sort of matches/different roles, plus all sort of intangibles stuff), the J (peak matches and moments within matches, plus paid off storylines in ring), P (how well did they portray their character through their ringwork), and obviously W. But a whole bunch of other stuff crops up too. How many memorable moments does a guy like Jericho have? The debut, the promo on Steph, the HHH dusty finish, the tag with Benoit against Austin/HHH, the turn on Rock, winning the unified title, getting turned on by Trish, and on, and on, and on, and on. How about his flexibility? How he changed his character? He's reinvented himself a ton of times and it's worked more often than not. And so on. He definitely does better on this rubric than if it was just the work alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Sure, So I didn't participate but their rubric was this: N: Nuance (Longevity, Flexibility, Intangibles) J: Jump Up Factor (Memorable Peak Matches, Moments and Storylines) P: Promo Skills & Character Work W: Workrate At which point, in ring work itself shows up in the N (can they work a bunch of different sort of matches/different roles, plus all sort of intangibles stuff), the J (peak matches and moments within matches, plus paid off storylines in ring), P (how well did they portray their character through their ringwork), and obviously W. But a whole bunch of other stuff crops up too. How many memorable moments does a guy like Jericho have? The debut, the promo on Steph, the HHH dusty finish, the tag with Benoit against Austin/HHH, the turn on Rock, winning the unified title, getting turned on by Trish, and on, and on, and on, and on. How about his flexibility? How he changed his character? He's reinvented himself a ton of times and it's worked more often than not. And so on. He definitely does better on this rubric than if it was just the work alone. he now is close top 100 on my metric my system is very strict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted March 6, 2018 Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 Sure, So I didn't participate but their rubric was this: N: Nuance (Longevity, Flexibility, Intangibles) J: Jump Up Factor (Memorable Peak Matches, Moments and Storylines) P: Promo Skills & Character Work W: Workrate At which point, in ring work itself shows up in the N (can they work a bunch of different sort of matches/different roles, plus all sort of intangibles stuff), the J (peak matches and moments within matches, plus paid off storylines in ring), P (how well did they portray their character through their ringwork), and obviously W. But a whole bunch of other stuff crops up too. How many memorable moments does a guy like Jericho have? The debut, the promo on Steph, the HHH dusty finish, the tag with Benoit against Austin/HHH, the turn on Rock, winning the unified title, getting turned on by Trish, and on, and on, and on, and on. How about his flexibility? How he changed his character? He's reinvented himself a ton of times and it's worked more often than not. And so on. He definitely does better on this rubric than if it was just the work alone. I agree Jericho rates well by their rubric. But I don't think I'd want to use a rubric that rates Jericho well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKWebb Posted March 12, 2018 Report Share Posted March 12, 2018 If you are clicking here, I'm sure you've looked at the list. So, I'll just say... what an AWESOME top 10. Savage is my guy. He was my number one and it's really spelled out as to why on the website and in the Facebook group. The top 10 didn't completely match my top 10, but I'm really happy with the results. They make sense to me. Savage really is the total package, Austin hit the highest high, Hogan is WWF, Cena is WWE, HBK/Hart didn't hit the tippy top charisma levels of those above them - Those above were Mr. Senior Class, but Hart/HBK are best all around..., Rock hit the charisma but was a little less than in the ring, Bruno is the Godfather, Undertaker is the most memorable character, and Y2J - Well, the most evolving man in the company's history that managed to change with the times and get himself over no matter where he was.... pretty solid ordering of the top 10! My Top 10: 1. Randy Savage 2. Hulk Hogan 3. Steve Austin 4. Bruno Sammartino 5. CM Punk 6. Roddy Piper 7. Shawn Michaels 8. Bret Hart 9. Rey Mysterio 10. Bob Backlund From the GWWE top 10: -Jericho I had at 19 -Undertaker I had at 21 -The Rock I had at 11 -John Cena I had at 16 Digging all the podcasts and the articles... thanks to all who participated and especially those who organized everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 12, 2018 Report Share Posted March 12, 2018 I'm not going to deny that, as a spectator, it was a pretty enjoyable top ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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