WWE Crown Jewel: No Girlz ALLOWED~!

[Al]

11 hours ago, Charles (Loss) said:

While I don't want to dismiss this point entirely, I will also say that I don't think this is a reasonable expectation. We all use Google and Facebook and they do horrible things. There's a good chance that your bank and my bank have directly or indirectly funded terrorism and human trafficking. We work for companies and shop at stores that probably donate to and empower terrible politicians. We buy food and cars and gasoline and healthcare and electricity in a way that empowers evil people. We likely listen to music or watch movies or appreciate art from people who have abused family members or worse. Hell, I claim to care about climate change, but I also eat beef and had two children. The point is not that to cancel WWE Network is foolish. I think it's pretty admirable and respect anyone who has the courage in their convictions to do so. However, I think to expect such action from everyone is asking too much. If we extended this logic to everything, we'd all completely disengage from each other and the world. This sounds like I'm saying we should just throw our hands up in the air, which I'm not saying at all. It's just that I think this point of view has limitations. I wish it didn't.

There's no way to be intellectually consistent about it. If I reviewed every company under the same standards Ragemaster lists, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any entertainment product or frankly any corporate business ever again. Life is brutal and complicated. But this is an easy way I can register my distaste. I'll be back. I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't cancel. But I shouldn't be begrudged for my decision either.

[ragemaster]

What I'm pointing out is the Wwe has a terrible history of human rights on its own workers, which are well documented. But it takes one non wrestlers death for you to think its crossed the line.

Yes you can stop at anytime, but after how they handled Owens death, the fall out of the Benoît situation.        

 Not to mention all the drug overdoses, chair shots and just vile working conditions they put there workers through over the years.                                               The gulf war stuff, plus forcing/pressuring their workers to go to a war zone to entertain the troops.

People can point out that how they cleaned up after Eddie death, but the way they looked the other way with Brock.                                                                         Or still push people with a certain look shows that they still the same company, if you can beat the tests we look the other way.  

Or in brock case we just ignore it when a drug test comes back form a different company.

While if this is the straw that broke the camel back and makes you stop watching, good for you.

But it does feels a little too late and hypocritical for this to be the hill to fall on your sword.

Just says you don't value the welfare of the wrestlers who entertain you very much. 

 

[ragemaster]

41 minutes ago, Al said:

There's no way to be intellectually consistent about it. If I reviewed every company under the same standards Ragemaster lists, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any entertainment product or frankly any corporate business ever again. Life is brutal and complicated. But this is an easy way I can register my distaste. I'll be back. I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't cancel. But I shouldn't be begrudged for my decision either.

Sorry I don't begrudge you decision, it sounds like a fair and good thing to do. It highlights your distaste on this one issue and then you can go back and watch your wrestlers being exploited with a clear conscience afterwards.

  

 

 

 

[C.S.]

8 minutes ago, ragemaster said:

Sorry I don't begrudge you decision, it sounds like a fair and good thing to do. It highlights your distaste on this one issue and then you can go back and watch your wrestlers being exploited with a clear conscience afterwards.

Your entire argument has been intellectually dishonest (not to mention, badly formatted and a chore to read). You're just as hypocritical for drawing a line in the sand with WWE and criticizing everyone else for "looking the other way" when you've done the exact same thing.

What about ROH? They're owned by the vile Sinclair Broadcasting. What about NJPW? I'm sure they have untold skeletons in their closet. What about all of the precious indy feds you follow? Those wrestlers likely survive on $25 payoffs (if they get paid at all), bologna meals, and sleeping on stained mattresses.

Since you feel so strongly about everything WWE has done wrong, you better boycott the entire wrestling industry because it's no better anywhere else - and in some cases, a whole lot worse. At least WWE pretends to care ("charity is the new PR") by doing things like sending former wrestlers to rehab, paying for their education, etc.  

 

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Yep. It's a complete cop-out and a way to wash your hands out of everything and put the blame (in this case, calling people hypocrite) on people who actually are gonna act out on this shit. In any case, better late than never. 

 

2 hours ago, Beast said:

So if you've watched WWE at any point knowing how scummy it has been, you can never stop? Maybe there's a difference between an actual human rights issue and wrestlers undervaluing themselves? 

I feel like doing business with a country that has a terrible record of human rights (and just murdered a US resident for speaking out against the regime) is different than any offensive angles or WWE business practices.

I don't understand "you weren't offended enough by these other no-related things" so it's hypocritical to be done with WWE over an actual political controversy. 

I have no issue with people not watching, trying to boycott or whatever. But as a Chilean whose family suffered the consequences of the fucked up shit the U.S pulled in the region - which pales in comparison of what they've done in other parts of the world -, I found the Tribute to the Troops shows to be as bad as the Saudi propaganda at the Greatest Royal Rumble. The amount of atrocities the U.S and their troops have done in various countries is as horrible as the shit MBS and his predecessors have done too and having a yearly show showing the righteousness of their role was as tone deaf as anything. 

Anyone can have a different breaking point, and the Khashoggi assassination is as good a reason to stop watching/supporting as any. But it's curious to me that it takes fucked up shit to go public for real outrage, from people who already understand how stuff works, to follow. I get it from a US citizen perspective because it would be weird to get into such an uproar with propaganda about your own military - even though you might know how horrible the whole deal is - but from an "outsider's" perspective, this feels like another stupid decision more than an unforgivable one. I wonder if I'll ever have a breaking point tbh, and that's really fucked up  

This might not be the time or thread to have this conversation, but what Charless posted is a very interesting line of discussion.

 

[Coffey]

I do not believe anything would change in the hypothetical scenario suggested by El -P. WWE thinks all of their roster & all of their fans are expendable & have demonstrated that multiple times over the years. If anything, they would probably make a joke about it on-air, like they did with #CancelWWENetwork. They're still getting the FOX money and the Saudi money. 

Nothing in WWE changes until Vince McMahon dies. 

 

[ragemaster]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

 Your entire argument has been intellectually dishonest (not to mention, badly formatted and a chore to read). You're just as hypocritical for drawing a line in the sand with WWE and criticizing everyone else for "looking the other way" when you've done the exact same thing.

What about ROH? They're owned by the vile Sinclair Broadcasting. What about NJPW? I'm sure they have untold skeletons in their closet. What about all of the precious indy feds you follow? Those wrestlers likely survive on $25 payoffs (if they get paid at all), bologna meals, and sleeping on stained mattresses.

Since you feel so strongly about everything WWE has done wrong, you better boycott the entire wrestling industry because it's no better anywhere else - and in some cases, a whole lot worse. At least WWE pretends to care ("charity is the new PR") by doing things like sending former wrestlers to rehab, paying for their education, etc.  

 

For the record I haven't stopped watching the WWE nor do I plan to stop anytime soon.

But that's because I don't watch raw or smackdown, only highlights of the show. (can't watch a whole show) I only watch the big shows on tape delay, so I can fast-forwarded though them. I don't feel that strongly about it or I would have stopped watching long before now. 

Don't watch indy's, not sure where that came from? I just WWE, NJPW and some stuff from Mexico.

I do get the outrage about this issue, but when the WWE business practices have never been moral to begin with. Why are people surprised by it, do you really expect anything better? 

I guess I just don't know why this crossed the line for people, when they done far worse over the years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[El-P]

21 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

I have no issue with people not watching, trying to boycott or whatever. But as a Chilean whose family suffered the consequences of the fucked up shit the U.S pulled in the region - which pales in comparison of what they've done in other parts of the world -, I found the Tribute to the Troops shows to be as bad as the Saudi propaganda at the Greatest Royal Rumble. The amount of atrocities the U.S and their troops have done in various countries is as horrible as the shit MBS and his predecessors have done too and having a yearly show showing the righteousness of their role was as tone deaf as anything. 

First time I was embarrassed to watch WWF was very early on during the whole Iraki angle. I was always appalled by the jingoist aspect of pro-wrestling, which always struck me as the lowest common denominator of propaganda and xenophobia you could find in the US entertainment industry, the kind of which you find in the stupidest movies and lamest shows. The Tribute to the Troops shows really fit right there indeed.

5 minutes ago, ragemaster said:

I do get the outrage about this issue, but when the WWE business practices have never been moral to begin with.                                                                                                                   Why are people surprised by it, do you really expect anything better? 

It's not a matter of being surprised or even expecting a change, it's a matter of reaching the point of complete disgust and being sick of it. It's a matter of saturation. At some point, you just can't take more of the shit they do and you go "You know what, fuck these people, fuck their audience, fuck their workers, I'm out."

[Sean Liska]

I don't know how anyone who kept watching after like 1991 can claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone watching now. 

[El-P]

EDIT : nevermind. 

[sek69]

It's Psychology 101. People feel personally attacked when their "team" or "side" does something wrong and gets called out on it. That makes them lash out at the people doing the calling out instead of having to focus on/deal with the bad behavior. Politics is the most obvious place you see it, but it happens anytime someone has a vested interest in something. I see it all the time in the video game world, a company does something like release pay to win DLC or some other anti consumer BS, and there's always people rushing to the defense of the company with some kind of "well if you've never complained before you're a hypocrite if you do now" rationale. 

[Beast]

2 hours ago, Sean Liska said:

I don't know how anyone who kept watching after like 1991 can claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone watching now. 

What the hell?

Do you not see the difference? This isn't like WWF doing a Sgt. Slaughter pro-Iraq angle where he's the bad guy. This is like WWF doing a show in Iraq promoting the progressiveness of Saddam's reign.

Wrestling bubble to the extreme in this thread.

Yes, we know WWE is a morally bankrupt company. Yes, they've done things we've complained about but overlooked because we were fans. If some of you don't see a difference in tasteless angles or anti-worker decisions and actively doing PR for a human rights violating country, I don't know what to tell you.

[Sean Liska]

4 minutes ago, Beast said:

What the hell?

Do you not see the difference? This isn't like WWF doing a Sgt. Slaughter pro-Iraq angle where he's the bad guy. This is like WWF doing a show in Iraq promoting the progressiveness of Saddam's reign.

Wrestling bubble to the extreme in this thread.

Yes, we know WWE is a morally bankrupt company. Yes, they've done things we've complained about but overlooked because we were fans. If some of you don't see a difference in tasteless angles or anti-worker decisions and actively doing PR for a human rights violating country, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm talking about the Mel Phillips/Tom Cole stuff, not Slaughter.

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Sean Liska said:

I'm talking about the Mel Phillips/Tom Cole stuff, not Slaughter.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

I'm with you on that stuff, but I started watching in '94 and didn't really start reading Observer-type news until 2005ish. The Eddy and Benoit deaths did change my level of fandom, but online communities kept it going. 

Saudi deal is still different to me, but I've said my piece. 

[sek69]

You can set the bar anywhere though. Vince covering up a murder for Snuka, allegedly raping Rita Chatterton,  just barely avoiding a federal steroid conviction (and comparing it to 9/11 later), having dead wrestlers stacking up like firewood and not doing anything until someone died on their watch, honoring a raging homophobe by naming an award after him.....

[Sean Liska]

5 minutes ago, sek69 said:

You can set the bar anywhere though. Vince covering up a murder for Snuka, allegedly raping Rita Chatterton,  just barely avoiding a federal steroid conviction (and comparing it to 9/11 later), having dead wrestlers stacking up like firewood and not doing anything until someone died on their watch, honoring a raging homophobe by naming an award after him.....

I agree and commend anyone who feels like they can't support this company on a moral basis anymore! I just didn't agree with what I saw as positioning this as the real line in the sand moment where educated people need to stop supporting the company or be held complicit in it, anyone who has watched for the last few decades has been complicit to some degree, look at that above list.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

10 hours ago, Al said:

There's no way to be intellectually consistent about it. If I reviewed every company under the same standards Ragemaster lists, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any entertainment product or frankly any corporate business ever again. Life is brutal and complicated. But this is an easy way I can register my distaste. I'll be back. I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't cancel. But I shouldn't be begrudged for my decision either.

I'm starting to think there's no ethical consumption under capitalism.  *shrug emoji*

[The Man in Blak]

4 hours ago, Zoo Enthusiast said:

I'm starting to think there's no ethical consumption under capitalism.  *shrug emoji*

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but that doesn't have to mean we have to be lazy about the compromises we make in what we consume or support.

I cancelled my network membership after the last Saudi event and my biggest regret in the months that have gone by is that I didn't do it sooner -- for me, the WWE wasn't worth making that compromise. Sometimes, it doesn't have to be a line crossed as much as a levee finally breaking.

But, like Loss and Al, I also think that sort of decision is always a personal one. If you want to make your case as a broader part of The Discourse, so be it; talking about this stuff can help clarify that decision for other people, as well as yourself. But all that discussion will never change the fact that everyone's math is always going to be different.

[Badlittlekitten]

Hey, what happened to the industrial suplex forum?

[fakeplastictrees]

10 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

Hey, what happened to the industrial suplex forum?

The experiment was retired some months ago by Charles. It had a nice run.

I wonder how much of my timeline is going to be filled with #CrownJewel chatter during the event? Is this the event people will watch with their blinds closed? I'm curious to see if the positive trending is impacted by the negative press, boycotts, etc. 

[El-P]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blak said:

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but that doesn't have to mean we have to be lazy about the compromises we make in what we consume or support.

I cancelled my network membership after the last Saudi event and my biggest regret in the months that have gone by is that I didn't do it sooner -- for me, the WWE wasn't worth making that compromise. Sometimes, it doesn't have to be a line crossed as much as a levee finally breaking.

Perfectly summed up.

[Strummer]

Stephanie from an interview with Sky News:

Quote

“Moving forward with Crown Jewel in Saudi Arabia was an incredibly tough decision, given that heinous act. But, at the end of the day, it is a business decision and, like a lot of other American companies, we decided that we’re going to move forward with the event and deliver Crown Jewel for all of our fans in Saudi Arabia and around the world

 

[Stiva]

I’m amazed that didn’t contain “putting smiles on the faces of fans all over the world”

[Loss]

She used the word "heinous" ... the cultish verbiage in that company never ceases to amaze me.

[joeg]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard the word heinous used outside of WWE...