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And Bix, as cool as it is to C + P my post, wouldn't it be more constructive to tell me exactly why you enjoy Jerry Lawler?

Not in a thread w/ wildpegasus.

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"Seriously, I don't see these deep stories people get from the matches, I just see good matches that a lot of the time really aren't that special."

 

They aren't movies or books, I hope no one thinks that. But in terms of the booking, the way Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada/Taue/etc. kept upping their matches in terms of going off past matches, adding small storylines, etc.

 

What matches from All Japan are just good but not special that are highly praised?

 

If you are with WP, I can already name one.

 

And Lawler being awesome doesn't need explanation. Watch the matches and then explain otherwise.

 

Tim

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What matches from All Japan are just good but not special that are highly praised?

Most, to be honest.

 

03/06/94 and the Ace/Williams/Misawa/Akiyama are examples I explain here...

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...c=4687&st=0

 

Take 06/09/95. A very good match, with a nice focus around Kobashi's knee injury.

 

But fuck, it wasn't a highly emotional moment or anything when Kawada won. Coey wrote that the moment will be 'forever etched in my mind'. Jesus, mate, you need to get out more, it's a wrestling match.

 

Truthfully, when I last watched it at couple of months back, my mind had wandered and I'd become bored by the tome the finish got there. Misawa's performance was poor, he just threw fore-arms around for most of the match. Kawada was awesome, and the match itself is entertaining enough, but it didn't get any emotion or feeling from me.

 

There just isn't enough major character work for me in these matches. I'd rather watch 06/07 Jimmy Jacobs than Misawa, simply because he has a thoughroughly entertaining gimmick. It's fun, it doesn't recquire a whole lot of thought to understand what he's doing. Wrestling should be overstated, not understated.

 

My main issue with Lawler is one that will be frowned upon; the fact his matches are mostly full of punches. Punches are nice enough for a while, but they get boring once you've seen him do them every match. Yes, the crowds are usually hot in his big matches, and they have a lot of blood and emotion, but they rarely keep my attention.

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"Seriously, I don't see these deep stories people get from the matches, I just see good matches that a lot of the time really aren't that special."

 

They aren't movies or books, I hope no one thinks that. But in terms of the booking, the way Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada/Taue/etc. kept upping their matches in terms of going off past matches, adding small storylines, etc.

 

What matches from All Japan are just good but not special that are highly praised?

 

If you are with WP, I can already name one.

 

And Lawler being awesome doesn't need explanation. Watch the matches and then explain otherwise.

 

Tim

 

If you are with WP, I can already name one? What does that mean Tim?

 

 

See Lawler being awesome does need explanation. I watch the matches and see nothing truly awesome, nothing that is truly special on an overall basis. That explanation of Lawler's work is just like me picking any wrestler and saying watch the matches and explain otherwise. Lawler's overall work just seems so fake to me. I just watched him against Bret the other week in yet another attempt to understand the appeal of Lawler and Lawler's body language came off as so contrived and overacted. It was like he was saying "This is fake and I'm in on the joke. You guys are losers for believing in this stuff".

Supposedly, there are 2 groups of fans with Lawler. Ones that like him and the others who think like me.

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You might be able to find 50 brawlers that you think smoke Brody but man, you can't find 50 wrestlers that give off a more believable and convincing aura that they can screw you up like Brody can. X and Y's brawling may look great but I don't think they're going to destroy me in the ring like Brody could.

 

I don't even think Brody looks like he can screw you up in the ring. He looks like a cartoon character. A pre-Taker.

 

Stan Hansen looks and wrestled like a Texas redneck who would drag you out into the bar parking lot and kick the living fuck out of you.

 

Brody looks like a guy on his way to a Halloween costume party, or some kind of Dark Ages role playing week end. Basically he looks fucking retarded.

 

I guess if you're a 6 year old Hulkamaniac, you might be scared.

 

 

John

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Loss told me he was going to start up a list of wrestlers he thought were better brawlers but I guess he got sidetracked. Anyway, here is a list of about 50 wrestlers I have seen in better brawls than I have ever seen Brody in...

 

Jim Duggan (multiple against Dibiase; Buzz Sawyer)

Ted Dibiase (multiple against Duggan; Murdoch; Flair bloodbath angle)

Dick Murdoch (Numerous)

Stan Hansen (Numerous)

Jerry Lawler (vs. Mantel; Dundee; Terry Funk)

Terry Funk (Numerous)

Dusty Rhodes (Numerous)

Ric Flair (Numerous)

Butch Reed (vs. Buzz Sawyer; JYD)

Eddie Gilbert (Battle of New Orleans; Concession Stand Brawl)

 

Buzz Sawyer (vs. Duggan; vs. Reed)

Buddy Rose (vs. Matt Borne; Rip Oliver; vs. Rockers)

El Dandy (Buy my set)

Fantastics (x2) (vs. Sheepherders; MX)

Sheepherders (x2) (Buy Bix Comp)

Terry Gordy (Duggan; Von Erichs; Killer Khan)

Michael Hayes (Von Erichs)

Buddy Roberts (Von Erichs; Iceman Parsons)

 

Von Erichs (x3) (Freebirds; Dynamic Duo; One Man Gang)

Sgt. Slaughter (Iron Shiek; Backlund; Steamboat & Youngblood)

Randy Savage (Lawler; Steamboat; Austin Idol)

Killer Khan (Gordy; Choshu)

Bob Backlund (Slaughter; Hansen; Patera)

RNR Express (x2) (Concession Stand; Flair; MX; Dibiase & Doc)

Dutch Mantel (Savage; Fans; Lawler; Dundee & Landel)

 

MX (Condrey & Eaton) (x2) (Fans; RNR; Road Warriors)

La Parka (Dandy)

Magnum TA (Dibiase; Nikita; Tully)

Wahoo McDaniel (Magnum; Rick Rude; Slaughter)

Tully Blanchard (Ron Garvin; Dusty; Magnum)

Moondogs (x2) (Buy Bix comp)

MS 1 (Sangre Chicana)

Vader (vs. Sting; Cactus)

 

Cactus Jack (Numerous)

Roddy Piper (Greg Valentine; Buddy Rose; Paul Orndorff)

Jushin Liger (vs. Samurai)

Andre the Giant (Hansen; Studd)

Chavo Guerrero (Steve Keirn; Fabulous Ones)

Dick Slater (Numerous)

Pat O Conner (Murdoch)

Brett Sawyer (Rose; Oliver; Assassin)

Bob Sweetan (Dibiase; Lawler)

Dr. Death (Buzz Sawyer; Terry Gordy; Dick Murdoch)

 

 

I am not saying all of these guys are without a doubt a better brawler than Brody. At the same time, I have never seen Brody in a better brawl than the guys I have listed including with guys I have listed. Every Brody opponent I can think of has been involved in a better brawl with other opponents. If you can give me some examples or specific matches where Brody trumps these guys, I would watch it.

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Random comments/additions/whatever:

 

Ted Dibiase (multiple against Duggan; Murdoch; Flair bloodbath angle)

I'd add the taped fist match w/ Sweetan for sure.

 

Jerry Lawler (vs. Mantel; Dundee; Terry Funk)

Jackie Fargo, too. Plus the Robert Fuller match were Lawler takes his bump down the steps. OH! And the Loser Leaves Town w/ Savage. And TX death w/ Bigelow. And the cage match w/ Rude...

 

Eddie Gilbert (Battle of New Orleans; Concession Stand Brawl)

Add Lawler, Dundee, & Cactus.

 

Fantastics (x2) (vs. Sheepherders; MX)

Bobby Fulton was pretty replaceable, though...

 

Sheepherders (x2) (Buy Bix Comp)

Aww thanks :)

 

I think there's no reason to keep out Jonathan Boyd making it 3. I could see an argument for Rip Morgan as #4, though probably not for Bigfoot as #5.

 

Sgt. Slaughter (Iron Shiek; Backlund; Steamboat & Youngblood)

I'd add the Patterson, McGraw, and Hogan matches.

 

Randy Savage (Lawler; Steamboat; Austin Idol)

I wouldn't call the Steamboat matches brawls, but yeah. Maybe sub in the first Hogan program.

 

Killer Khan (Gordy; Choshu)

vs Dynamite is fun, too, though annoyingly JIP.

 

La Parka (Dandy)

Santo bloodbaths, too.

 

Wahoo McDaniel (Magnum; Rick Rude; Slaughter)

There's a little bit out there w/ Johnny Valentine, too.

 

Moondogs (x2) (Buy Bix comp)

I didn't make it yet, but yeah.

 

I think you could make an argument for at least 4 Moondogs. Rex & Spot, plus at least 2 of Spot's USWA partners, Spike & Splat.

 

Vader (vs. Sting; Cactus)

Stan Hansen, too.

 

Roddy Piper (Greg Valentine; Buddy Rose; Paul Orndorff)

There's also the cage match w/ Rick Rude.

 

Andre the Giant (Hansen; Studd)

Whoa whoa which Studd match?

 

I'd also go w/ one of the earlier Hogan matches.

 

Chavo Guerrero (Steve Keirn; Fabulous Ones)

Doc & DiBiase, too.

 

I could add another 200-250 names to this list if I wanted. I'm debating whether or not I want to try.

 

Please do, it'll be fun.

 

I'll add:

 

El Satanico (Dandy a bunch of times, GDI feud)

Masashi Aoyagi (Onita, Koshinaka)

The Undertaker (Foley, Michaels, Batista, Finlay, Diesel)

Jackie Fargo (Lawler, Moondogs)

El Hijo Del Santo (Parka, Panther, Dandy, Casas, Perro Jr)

El Hijo del Perro Aguayo (Santo, Casas, Universo, Bucanero)

Negro Casas (Santo, Perro Jr)

Barry Windham (Murdoch, Pillman, Doom)

Dustin Rhodes (Bunkhouse Buck, Wargames, Vader, Arn Anderson)

Harley Race (Flair, Haku, LOD)

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I could see how someone would say 90s AJ was overrated in the sense where some people just heap so much praise on it you almost want to hate it just to be contrarian. It does get tiresome to hear a segment of the online world constantly compare everything currently happen to 90s AJ, then bitch when the current stuff unsurprisingly fails to measure up.

 

 

As far as Brody goes, it just annoys me how he's held up as a legend when he'd never do jobs despite not staying very long in a territory. Not saying that he should have lost to everyone, but it was kind of annoying how you'd almost always know his match would end in a wild double DQ schmozz.

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I could see how someone would say 90s AJ was overrated in the sense where some people just heap so much praise on it you almost want to hate it just to be contrarian. It does get tiresome to hear a segment of the online world constantly compare everything currently happen to 90s AJ, then bitch when the current stuff unsurprisingly fails to measure up.

 

Times have changed and people now are more open to territory wrestling and lucha libre, but I totally agree with this. Not so many years ago, when people talked about best wrestlers ever, the typical list usually was 1 to 4. random mix of Tsuruta/Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, 5.- maybe Liger or Akira Hokuto.

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Problem I have is, 90's AJ has had so much hype, that I turn it on every time expecting something incredible, and when your expectations are that high, you're bound to be disappointed. It's almost as if you have to like it, when really a lot of it seems repetetive and boring to me.

 

I'd be interested to know people's favourite current wrestlers.

 

I'm not exactly up on the scene right now, but the only wrestlers I'd really look forward to watching these days, are Matt Sydal, Jimmy Jacobs and Necro Butcher.

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I can sort of understand that. Just try to watch with reasonable expectations, but don't let the expectations be the destruction of you. I had that problem when I watched Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue from 6/9/95 the first time. It had been hyped up as such an amazing match for so long by so many people that I think I was going to be disappointed unless spaceships dropped into the ring and every single second of the match was filled with surprises and twists and turns and "holy shit!" moments. I was disappointed that there wasn't immediate "wow" moments the second the bell rang to start the match and thought this would be a match that really transcended wrestling. It was a great, classic match, among the best to ever happen, but it wasn't much more than that. Just remember, it's not something otherworldly, it's still pro wrestling. Don't let the net hyperbole (for everything -- good and bad) affect you.

 

I'm a little hypocritical here, since my favorite way to watch wrestling these days is to jump around constantly between styles/eras/promotions so I don't get tired of a particular style, but it may help to watch the matches in chronological order, since that is the way they were intended to be viewed.

 

Also, I find that the All Japan style starts bugging me if I try to watch too much of it at once, so space it out. My biggest problem with the style has always been that I'm a fan of flash pins, inside cradles and rollups. Not all the time, but I think works in any style and adds a lot to the drama and suspense. All Japan is more big offensive move to pin attempt to next big offensive move to next pin attempt most of the time, so I don't catch a lot of surprise finishes. There are obvious exceptions to this, but no style is perfect, regardless of what the net hyperbole says.

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Yeah, I remember when the rules of the net were that All Japan ruled everything and there never was a lucha libre or North American match that even came remotely close to that. Now thoughts have changed. We have people praising wrestlers with obvious weaknesses in their games and matches that wouldn't be thought of as great before.

 

And I'm happy about this. I used to get a lot of heat for my wrestling opinions.

 

But All Japan still rules. It's just great wrestling but it's okay if you don't like it as well. My best All Japan matches are different than somebody else's. Give me Kobashi vs Williams from 93 or 94 or Kobashi vs Hanson from 94 as a match with better storytelling, excitement and drama than the 6/95 tag or Misawa vs Kawada from 6/94. If I remember correctly, I have one of the Kawada vs Williams matches as being way better than the one that's mostly talked about.

 

But people still get mad at opinions and that dissapoints me. I see people who are contrarian somewhat but yet won't open up to ever being wrong and are condecending to other posters. You would think that they would know better. Look at the Cena debate for example.

 

I'm kind of going off here but I remember one well known IWC poster who used to have one viewpoint, looked down at others and was closet minded. Eventually, he opened up and even improved his personality dramatically. I wish more people could learn from him.

 

Now Loss is a good example of a quality poster. More people should learn from him.

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RE: Brody - I've always been disappointed at how disappointing I've found Brody's work. Many of my friends would go on how amazing he was and what a great wrestler and brawler he was but I've gotten a couple of comps and he's ok but nothing to write home about IMO.

 

Stan Hansen was someone who lived up to the hype that I had heard and read about and he was a far surperior worker than Brody on many different levels. He never came across as a cartoon character and was able to hold his own against Misawa and Co. (including Doc and Gordy) during the AJPW glory days of the 90s.

 

As well off the top of my head these are some of the wrestlers whose work I'm really enjoying -

 

American Dragon

Minoru Suzuki

John Cena

Fit Finlay

Nigel McGuinness

Takeshi Rikio

Shuji Kondo

Koji Kanemoto

Daisuke Sekimoto

Alex Shelley

Go Shiosaki

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Re: Lawler: I've actually been slowly making my way through Will's Lawler set, I knocked off two discs yesterday as a personal tribute to my late grandfather. And I'm sort of stuck in the middle it seems, because I can see where both WP and more or less everyone else is coming from (aside from WP's argument about Lawler's punches).

 

I'd not classify Lawler as a great *wrestler* and both Lawler and Jim Cornette have said that Memphis, and Tennessee in general, was not big on technical wrestling. But what I've been watching out of Lawler (just finished disc #4) has been phenomenal. His punches are probably the best I've seen (maybe second to Hansen). His bumping and selling is great. And he's excellent in terms of getting the crowd excited, whether he's the babyface (Dundee LLT match) or a heel (the Sweetan match). So I'd classify Lawler as one of the best *workers* of all time, although not for his actual wrestling skills, if that makes sense.

 

As far as Meltzer worrying about younger fans thinking Batista was great worker. I don't think he needs to worry. The combination of technology being what it is (as far as things like youtube, and all the file sharing programs), and people like Bix, Will, Bob Barnett, etc there isn't any shortage at all of avenues to seek out truly great wrestling.

 

Re: Brody: I can see where he was a real attraction due to the relative rarity of being able to see him on a regular basis. But I've yet to see any really great matches out of him, aside from the 1981 Tag League final night w/Snuka against the Funks. But one of the golden rules in wrestling it seems is that folks who died are often placed the pedestal, and with a few exceptions (Owen Hart, Curt Hennig) none were as great as they're made out to be.

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I like Brody-Jumbo matches for the humor value - there are always lots of laughs to be had in their matches, usually due to Brody doing something goofy.

 

John

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I think Brody is a product of a bygone era, like the Road Warriors. He was all about presence and mystique and aura. The actual man I think was pretty childish, paranoid and intimidating, but savvy enough to stick around. Out of context though, when you take away the mystique and aura and examine the matches themselves in the era of snowflake ratings and junior heavyweight spot fests, the matches themselves don't really hold up. In short, I think he was a tremendous attraction for a simpler time.

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I think that it isn't really a matter of judging Brody's matches to NJ spotfests. Part of it is a reflection of my youth where I eagerly awaited for a Brody match (watching him in WCCW as a kid) only to be let down afterwards.

 

Also, keep in mind that most of the time, we are comparing Brody to people from his own era. Most of my list and most fo the matches I would roll out are from the 70s and 80s. Brody was being smoked in matches by people all around him. I will admit he was a great self-promoter who was hyped up by wrestling mouthpieces.

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I think Brody is a product of a bygone era, like the Road Warriors. He was all about presence and mystique and aura. The actual man I think was pretty childish, paranoid and intimidating, but savvy enough to stick around.

 

WTF?

 

He was savy enough to burn bridges in both Japan and the US. He was hanging by a thread in the business when he was unsavvy enough to piss off someone to the point of killing him.

 

John

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Touche'

 

You definitely have a point there. But, I don't think (had he lived) there really would've been long periods of time in which Brody couldn't find work. Perhaps my thoughts would have been better expressed by saying he was savvy in that he made himself enough of a commodity that he would be in demand. As long as he was drawing, someone would take the gamble and use him.

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