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goodhelmet

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The pre-shows are probably the worst place to be showing that gimmick, which is the point most of us are trying to make. AEW seems to be treating the pre-shows as dumping grounds for failed experiments, failed comedy, and other bullshit that isn't good enough for the main show, instead of using it to try to sell people on what they can actually offer and what they can expect to see.

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1 hour ago, El-P said:

What ? I'm not even making argument for anything, I'm just stating facts.

Thus far AEW has been a success.

The Librarians is a pastiche comedy gimmick on the undercard (thus far, only on BTE and pre-shows) and people are acting like it's the worst thing ever and it's gonna kill the promotion's appeal. There's a complete disconnect between some reactions and what actually is occuring with the promotion thus far. Total overstatement. Really. That being said, it's gonna make for a fun running gag at this point.

Handwaving potential fan discontent with "But they did better than expected!" is very much in line with the thinking of WCW as the ship was about to hit the iceberg. They have had a grand total of three shows (if you count their unofficial PPV, All In). Now is not the time to be resting on laurels or pushing back on fan discontent.

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The thing I stated is that they're no way to know if those 5000 people who left the Youtube stream (if that did happen) would have bought the show or not *anyway*. There's just no way to know. None. So, we're just speculating on something that has zero ground. 

14 minutes ago, Slasher said:

Handwaving potential fan discontent with "But they did better than expected!" is very much in line with the thinking of WCW as the ship was about to hit the iceberg. 

Wait, are we now at the point where we compare AEW, which like you said has had a grand total of TWO successful shows, with WCW being a sinking ship, all because of…. THE LIBRARIANS ? Sorry but… it's laughable. The success or lack of success of AEW in the upcoming months won't be because of the fucking LIBRARIANS. Chill out people.

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4 minutes ago, El-P said:

The thing I stated is that they're no way to know if those 5000 people who left the Youtube stream (if that did happen) would have bought the show or not *anyway*. There's just no way to know. None. So, we're just speculating on something that has zero ground. 

Wait, are we now at the point where we compare AEW, which like you said has had a grand total of TWO successful shows, with WCW being a sinking ship, all because of…. THE LIBRARIANS ? Sorry but… it's laughable. The success or lack of success of AEW in the upcoming months won't be because of the fucking LIBRARIANS. Chill out people.

No, but why make mistakes now when they have had a grand total of three shows? Why not commit to presenting the best product from top to BOTTOM, which is the pre-show? Joking about pushing the Librarians like Baron Corbin shows enough self awareness that they should realize they need to move away from it already but will they? Probably not.

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9 minutes ago, Slasher said:

No, but why make mistakes now when they have had a grand total of three shows? Why not commit to presenting the best product from top to BOTTOM, which is the pre-show? Joking about pushing the Librarians like Baron Corbin shows enough self awareness that they should realize they need to move away from it already but will they? Probably not.

Nobody's perfect. In their minds, the Librarian joke is obviously funny. And some people do think it's funny. Hell, people in the audience at Fyter Fest did the "Shhhhhhhhh" gimmick (which sounded kinda like Tenzan throwing the mongolian chop, which is kinda cool). It is a pastiche. Some get it, other don't. Matter of taste. I thought it works well on BTE, didn't think it was that good on the actual show (didn't do Allie any favors either), but then again, not everything is gonna be a hit. Like I said, I don't particulary care one way of another, but people acting like AEW is doing a huuuuuge mistake and will draw people away with these awwwwwwwful pre-shows, while no-selling the terrific tag match and the way it introduced green as grass Private Party and made them look like something special, sounds like gross overstatement and a will to focus on something negative because honestly, thus far, there isn't much negative to talk about...

Can't wait for Peter Avalon vs Sonny Kiss...

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The Librarians is only one example of a misstep.  The gimmick battle royale was panned. The Nakazawa garbage match was panned. The Dark Order has people rolling their eyes. Not everything has been a homerun. The test will be if they recognize what does and doesn't work and adjust accordingly. Doubling down on the Librarians isn't a good look. If it bombs on TV, will they double down or cut their losses? It's ok to cheer for the company but be critical of their mistakes. You can do both. 

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10 minutes ago, goodhelmet said:

It's ok to cheer for the company but be critical of their mistakes. You can do both. 

I do that all the time. Read my posts about iMPACT, which has been my favorite promotion for the last year.

Thus far with AEW, I have nothing much bad to say about it, honestly. I liked the Battle Royal. The Nakazawa match made me laugh. I'm mostly indifferent to the Librarians. If they do something I find bad, or even something that doesn't work for me, I'll have zero issue saying it. I'm not a fan of them using Jimmy Havoc. I find it's too bad they won't do intergender matches. The Dark Order thus far is a complete miss.

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I must say it saddens me to that The Dark Order isn't working at all so far because Evil Uno & Stu Grayson are 2 guys that really deserve an opportunity at the spotlight. Should they have waited to introduce them in an area where fans are familiar with them? Could this be part of why it's not working so far? Would the reception been different if Double or Nothing had taken place in California, for instance, considering their past ties with PWG?

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Well, since we're at it, I have to say I don't know who the Super Smash Brothers are. Never saw them work, don't know how they look, don't know anything about them. So the Dark Order stuff, yep, completely looks like an unimaginative third rate Wyatt Family-lite gimmick without the cool factor they had (I mean, from the first few months and vignettes). Lights going out and masked minions surrounding the ring from nowhere, yep, that's some washed up, seen a billion times already stuff. And the promos haven't been compelling at all. And this is not a comedy undercard gimmick. So, there's your big miss thus far.

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2 hours ago, goodhelmet said:

The Librarians is only one example of a misstep.  The gimmick battle royale was panned. The Nakazawa garbage match was panned. The Dark Order has people rolling their eyes. Not everything has been a homerun. The test will be if they recognize what does and doesn't work and adjust accordingly. Doubling down on the Librarians isn't a good look. If it bombs on TV, will they double down or cut their losses? It's ok to cheer for the company but be critical of their mistakes. You can do both. 

Exactly this. It especially looks bad after the Cody Rhodes interview where he's talking about listening to the fans, wanting to hear the feedback & being able to accept criticism.

The criticism, damn near universally, has been the pre-shows suck & should be used to sell the shows main card instead, not do comedy bullshit. The Librarians suck. The Michael Nakazawa shit sucks. Sonny Kiss sucks.

So... they double down on it all & keep doing it. 

That's the same shit Vince McMahon does that pisses people off. It's like being purposely trolled by a company.

Damn near everything Jim Cornette has ranted about so far has been spot on. And putting your fingers in your ears, going la-la-la and pretending like people are "out of touch" won't help the company improve.

It just doesn't make sense from a common sense standpoint. If the show is great sans for one area, why not improve that area? It worries me going forward, even if they're very young as a company. 

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2 hours ago, El-P said:

I do that all the time. Read my posts about iMPACT, which has been my favorite promotion for the last year.

Thus far with AEW, I have nothing much bad to say about it, honestly. I liked the Battle Royal. The Nakazawa match made me laugh. I'm mostly indifferent to the Librarians. If they do something I find bad, or even something that doesn't work for me, I'll have zero issue saying it. I'm not a fan of them using Jimmy Havoc. I find it's too bad they won't do intergender matches. The Dark Order thus far is a complete miss.

There is a disconnect with what you enjoy and what others enjoy. That's ok. When the owner of the company says that Mid South will serve as an inspiration for their product,  that is music to my ears. That is the expectation I had going forward. Hell, I wouldn't even mind some evil Russians (Rusev please!!!). However, if you deliberately put stuff on TV that makes audience members embarassed to be wrestling fans, people will tune out. This isn't even a knock on you or AEW because wrestling companies have been insulting fans' intelligence since I have been alive. Some people can live with (and even enjoy) stupidity in their wrestling because they have come to expect it. However, when one of your goals is to win back fans who quit being fans, these aren't the types of angles/matches/gimmicks that will make lapsed fans come back. 

Disclaimer: I enjoyed the battle royal from the DoN show. However, I completely understand the criticisms that people had, and more importantly, why they had them. 

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18 minutes ago, goodhelmet said:

There is a disconnect with what you enjoy and what others enjoy. That's ok. When the owner of the company says that Mid South will serve as an inspiration for their product,  that is music to my ears. That is the expectation I had going forward. Hell, I wouldn't even mind some evil Russians (Rusev please!!!). However, if you deliberately put stuff on TV that makes audience members embarassed to be wrestling fans, people will tune out. This isn't even a knock on you or AEW because wrestling companies have been insulting fans' intelligence since I have been alive. Some people can live with (and even enjoy) stupidity in their wrestling because they have come to expect it. However, when one of your goals is to win back fans who quit being fans, these aren't the types of angles/matches/gimmicks that will make lapsed fans come back. 

That's understood. But it's a wee bit early to talk about AEW driving fans away or not being able to grab an audience, especially since, for the very short time it's been there, it's been nothing but an unexpected success. 

And I'll be pretty honest, as much as I'm very excited about AEW, the whole "strict sport presentation" and "Mid-South as an inspiration" is absolutely not the part I'm excited about. For the record, what got me back following current pro-wrestling was Lucha Underground. If you ask me, I'll have this over any kind of "strict sport presentation", which is why I enjoy iMPACT doing some out of the box stuff (although nothing will beat Catrina the evil witch and Matanza eating people). The Raven fan speaking here, I guess.

FWIW, the Micheal Nakazawa match got over great with the audience that was in the building. Let's see if Sonny Kiss vs Peter Avalon gets shit on by the crowd. If that's the case, well, let's not do this too much anymore. If it gets over, well, the disconnect is between some people's expectations of what the promotion should be in their opinion and the actual current AEW audience.

I hear "they need to get the lapsed fans, they need to get the casual fans". Well, fuck me if I care about that. They need to find their niche and be successful at whatever they do, and I'll care as long as it suits what I enjoy. Last time the casual audience loved pro-wrestling, it was the Attitude Era, so thank you but no thank you. So, if AEW has to catter to its own audience with their own indiosyncrasies which may or may not include enjoying meta-gimmicks and the occasionnal Micheal Nakazawa crass comedy match, I'm perfectly fine with it. 

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Maybe they don't care about getting the lapsed fans or the casual fans. Maybe they want to attempt to make new fans, and if that's the case, in my experience, kids today seem to like weird, quirky shit.

Maybe that Librarian thing that we don't get is something that my 15 year old nephew would find fucking hilarious. Maybe Nakazawa's baby oil shtick is something that would resonate with 20 year old hipsters. Maybe Sonny Kiss and the ass based offense would get over huge with teenage girls. Maybe Orange Cassidy's don't give a fuck charisma is to this generation what Raven's was to disgruntled kids of the 90's

I'm not claiming any of this is truth, I don't fucking know. I'm almost 41 and binge watching World Class on a weekly basis. I hardly feel like my opinions on what makes a good wrestling show are relevant these days, because what I see now is nothing like what I grew up watching, and I think that is probably the same for most everyone on this board.

I'm just trying to look at it from a different perspective.

I find it hard to judge anything after only 3 shows, and I hardly think losing viewers on a YouTube pre-show means shit. Most likely those people never intended to buy anything in the first place. Plus, you can't begin to calculate the amount of people who are pirating the shows after the fact. Until the television show debuts, I don't think anything can be truly valued based on numbers.

I liked what I've seen so far, certainly more than the product WWE is currently putting out. Virtually every wrestling company ever has had some stupid gimmick on the show. I don't think having the Librarian on the pre-show is the death knell for the company. It's gotta be better than multiple Shane McMahon appearances every week.

 

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Criticism saying AEW isn't doing enough (anything?) to build an outside audience is valid, everything so far seems aimed at the current base, BTE watchers, and/or people just sick to death of WWE.  I think it would be fair to assume they are biding their time until October and the TV show launches though. I would expect a harder push toward new fans, also probably lapsed fans if TNT's Nitro-reminiscent branding means anything. I don't see anything wrong with catering to the base until then, but if post October everything is still references to YouTube in jokes, then I would say that is cause for worry. 

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@El-P

I am good with your response. We want different things in our wrestling... nothing wrong with that. When it was launched, I saw who was involved and I expected nothing in terms of throwback wrestling and sports presentation. However, they were the ones who pushed that narrative.  That was the part I was most excited about. I am also not opposed to them pushing guys i don't like or don't "get". I'm an old man. I can't be their target audience. I accept that.  If we don't get some of that old school vibe, I'll be disappointed because that expectation is what brought me to the party. 

 

@Blehschmidt

In interviews, they specifically said that they were trying to get back those lapsed wrestling fans. Again, they set that expectation. Also, I agree with everything else you said. 

 

@sek69

I agree. 

 

Also, for the record, even with the stupid shit, there is enough good stuff to keep me around.  If you like some classic style wrestling, Cody has been great giving me my wrestling fix going back to last year's All In. I find Moxley more interesting than any guy on the entire WWE roster.  I am a huge fan of what they are doing with the women so far. I love the Lucha Bros and I don't care if it's choreographed dancing. I am amped that they want to make tag wrestling a main event draw. I am really interested to see if Omega's success can translate to an American company.  I want Adam Page to be the 2nd coming of Magnum TA. I want to see Jericho shine in his new role. I can't wait to see MJF eventually booked in main event programs. So many great things to look forward to. Instead, we are arguing about bad comedy matches and lame gimmicks because the bad stuff on great shows really sticks out. 

Oh shit, I forgot... Dustin mother fucking Rhodes is wrestling tomorrow night. I can't wait. 

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9 minutes ago, goodhelmet said:

Also, for the record, even with the stupid shit, there is enough good stuff to keep me around.  If you like some classic style wrestling, Cody has been great giving me my wrestling fix going back to last year's All In. I find Moxley more interesting than any guy on the entire WWE roster.  I am a huge fan of what they are doing with the women so far. I love the Lucha Bros and I don't care if it's choreographed dancing. I am amped that they want to make tag wrestling a main event draw. I am really interested to see if Omega's success can translate to an American company.  I want Adam Page to be the 2nd coming of Magnum TA. I want to see Jericho shine in his new role. I can't wait to see MJF eventually booked in main event programs. So many great things to look forward to. Instead, we are arguing about bad comedy matches and lame gimmicks because the bad stuff on great shows really sticks out. 

Yeah, it's sad too because Double or Nothing was a fantastic show, with good-to-great matches on it & I'm really amped for the show tomorrow in Jacksonville. Dustin Vs. Cody is my MOTY so far & I'm really excited for their show to debut on TNT. They've done a lot more good than bad & they've genuinely impressed me so far. I'm high on AEW & want to support them. That's part of why it's a bit baffling to me with the pre-show stuff. If you just skip the pre-show altogether, I guess it's a non-issue but isn't the pre-show supposed to get impulse buys? Which, if it's a free show, I guess that doesn't matter either. Heh.

I really like Moxley & Dustin & I'm coming around on Cody. I have high expectations for Luchasaurus & MJF. I'm interested in what the women do. I want to see if anymore big names come to AEW. I'm excited as a wrestling fan again, for a U.S. based promotion that's going to be on cable television. That's not happened in a long time. 

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I think if they were talking about bringing back lapsed fans, they were talking about attitude era fans.  As far as the real sports presentation, I assume Jim Ross said something about that?  I’ve always assumed AEW was going to essentially be PWG on TV, which I am down for.  It hasn’t been THAT good thus far but I’ve enjoyed everything,

I think they have hit the mark much more often than not thus far (though for the record, I also think stuff like the Librarian thing and the stupid thing they are doing with the Smash Bros are terrible).  The shows have had a lot of variety and that has also been good. Great commentary thanks to Excalibur.  No major TV promotion that I have followed has made a show that I have loved from start to finish week-to-week so I don’t expect that from anyone.

As soon as Dustin hit that gusher, my friend and I decided there was no way we could miss All Out in person.  I’m still pretty much just as pumped as I was then.   

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8 hours ago, Coffey said:

That's part of why it's a bit baffling to me with the pre-show stuff. If you just skip the pre-show altogether, I guess it's a non-issue but isn't the pre-show supposed to get impulse buys? Which, if it's a free show, I guess that doesn't matter either. Heh.

This is me. I haven't watched a minute of the pre-shows, so I find it utterly strange that this has become a primary debate when the company has done so much right coming out of the gate. 

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It’s odd that people are talking about this promotion as a thing with its own characteristics when they have only run two shows. Two shows down and the Memphis weekly loop wouldn’t have even hit Louisville yet let alone Evansville (assume Nashville start on daturdays) Over 5% of all the promotions matches thus far have featured the legendary  JEBAILEY. 

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3 hours ago, Herodes said:

It’s odd that people are talking about this promotion as a thing with its own characteristics when they have only run two shows. Two shows down and the Memphis weekly loop wouldn’t have even hit Louisville yet let alone Evansville (assume Nashville start on daturdays) Over 5% of all the promotions matches thus far have featured the legendary  JEBAILEY. 

 

People keep clowning on the Jebailey stuff, but he's a big name in the gaming world, his "Jebaited" emote is global on Twitch (which means it was popular enough for all of Twitch to use it rather than just his subscribers) and there's a growing connection between wrestling and gaming. To continue to dismiss it comes off as "I don't follow it therefore it sucks" at best and "old man yelling at the kids on his lawn" at worst.  

I get it if it's not your cup of tea, but to dimiss it because you don't follow it or aren't in the loop is the same kind of shit we get on Vince about for being out of touch.

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We can also dismiss it because the match wasn't good and inadvertently mocked the type of match that was headlining the show. I am all for cross promotions and hyping up your sponsors. Why did Jebailey have to wrestle? You said he is very popular in the gaming world. Why couldn't he come out to hype up the weekend and then you can have a heel (MJF) come out and run down the nerds, beat up the CEO, get real heat and have another face cosplaying as a game character come out and rescue Jebailey while executing his game finisher as the rescue move. 

You still feature Jebailey. You don't have 2 "hardcore" matches on the show. You can still promote the gaming spirit of the event. You don't force one of of your rising stars to go toe to toe with a novice. You get real heat for the heel. By beating up the guy in the angle, you can still play up your Mid South inspiration. It was poorly played and came across bad on TV. If you insist on doing the exact match that actually happened, make it a dark match to play for the  in-house crowd. 

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1 hour ago, sek69 said:

his "Jebaited" emote is global on Twitch (which means it was popular enough for all of Twitch to use it rather than just his subscribers)

I’ll be honest, I genuinely have no idea what any of this means.

I fully admit that I am an old man yelling at the kids on the lawn, because the kids are dweeby little shits.

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2 minutes ago, Herodes said:

I’ll be honest, I genuinely have no idea what any of this means.

I fully admit that I am an old man yelling at the kids on the lawn, because the kids are dweeby little shits.

Honestly this is like young people saying Memphis is shit because they don't understand the context of the wacky stuff that went on there sometimes. 

And that's fine. Just don't get upset when the people who do know what all that means point it out to you. 

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