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FMKK

Post-Mania TV 2019

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52 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

Plus other companies have rosters of guys with in built Indie Cred. Or guys that have a Worked In Japan tag. Exciting Movesets and High Work Rates.

Roman Reigns just recovered from cancer and he's already getting boos. Better go to RoH and learn some burning hammers.

That type of stereotyping is so lazy, annoying and quite frankly, stupid. First, yeah, for instance, NJPW has guys marked as "tag in japan". No shit. Japan is an important part of the pro-wrestling culture, including, and I know it may shock some people, to JAPANESE. I know the MOVEZ crowd (by this I don't mean people who like pro-wrestling moves, because every pro-wrestling fans like pro-wrestling moves, but people still using that stupid meme to show how "smarter" they are) and the anti-Meltz culture propelled by Brucie's gimmick podcast loves to shit on everything Japanese like this wrestling culture was about snowflakes and Observer awards, but at some point, just let this nonsense disappear, please. And yeah, people love exciting moveset in pro-wrestlers. Like, Ric Flair (yeah, for an 80's guy, he was totally workraty), Steamboat, Savage, Hart and whatnot. It is absolutely not the point here. The point is, WWE has trained its audience to not care and spent years trolling them to death. So the audience either do not care and acts like asshole at times.

Also, built-in Indie Cred ? Like.... Kofi Kingston, the guy who got the biggest ovation at Mania ? And yeah, other company, which are more indies, have tons of built-in indie cred, for sure...

And finally, yes, Roman Reigns just recovered from cancer. Great for him. Fucking A. Then what ? The audience is not gonna sustain that wave of positive emotion forever. Roman Reigns the pro-wrestling character is still the same Roman Reigns who they didn't care for as the guy on top to begin with. They should just carry on the real-life emotion of "cancer survivor" forever and project it on the character ? First, there's something kinda sleazy when you think about the whole "Well, it took recovering for leukemia to get over" thingy (and let's not pretend WWE is not banking on it, as Drew's promo was full of "You beat leukemia, you won' beat me" bullshit). Second, the emotion is simply not sustainable forever. Like I said, I doubt he's gonna get booed (he wasn't at Mania, like it's been said it was about people not doing the wave, which BTW speaks about how much they care about the character at this point), but I also doubt he's gonna be accepted as The Man now just because of this fact, he's the same guy, same character, same work and he already has been seen for too long doing the same thing. (EDIT : well, if he was booed out of the building during the RAW post-show, well, that means the emotion is totally gone already and nothing has changed, which in a way is still better than the audience not giving a shit anymore at all now that they don't boo anymore)

Anyway, I'm just ranting, but I'm quite tired of the blame being put on the fans, especially with non-argument like "they want MOVEZ and indie guys", when in fact it's all the fault of years and years of stupid, incompetent, and deaf booking.

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It can be both. Nineteen years of questionable booking, years wayward storytelling. And an audience that still pays to watch your show to shit on it, any excuse they can get. It's all Daniel Bryan's fault. 

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5 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

And an audience that still pays to watch your show to shit on it, any excuse they can get. 

Well, that's another issue. WWE's gravitation pull is so huge that for most fans, it's basically unthinkable to not watch WWE if you watch pro-wrestling. The reasonnable thing to do would be indeed to stop fucking watching and go to events (and honestly, it is slowly happening, but Mania is a special case alltogether). If their business would crumble like WCW did, maybe they would kick themselves in the ass. But I'm afraid with the FOX & Saudi deals they've reach the "too big to fail" level, financially speaking.

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Living and dying by movez and match ratings sounds like a surefire route to failure. Characters make connections. Personalities get over. Thinking that it's about movez or match quality is some Kenny Omega level shit. Nobody is going to "change wrestling" by having 5 star matches or whateverthefuck.

Seth Rollins has indie cred & does some spectacular, super athletic shit. And he pops & wows the crowd. Problem is - he has zero character. And so those pops are surrounded by silence or even active chants of, "BORING!" Because there's no there there. It's all motion & zero emotion.

Pro wrestling thrives when it's about emotion.

That's why things like Kofi's triumph and the Miz stuff were the highlights of Mania. That's why Kofi's role as Challenger was infinitely more interesting & engaging than anything surrounding Seth Rollins. That's why people get over.

This time-killing, all-filler approach to pro wrestling is such an unappealing quality within modern wrestling. It isn't in everything, but it's abundant for sure.

It's lazy and easy though. And when you're obligated to produce so much content, it's an easy trap to get caught up in. But yeah. It's easy to understand why fans are so disenchanted by it all. There's a serious lack of consistency, logic, and characterization. That shit is KEY. It's essential in any form of storytelling. Wrestling just for the sake of movez and fake fighting is fucking awful. I don't care if it's supposedly "six star" action or what. If there's no reason to care, it's all just masturbatory motion - for no rhyme or reason.

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3 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

Thinking that it's about movez or match quality is some Kenny Omega level shit.

:huh:

Except Kenny Omega is all about in-ring psychology and character, his matches are chockfull of this, his feud with Okada is like the greatest piece of detail storytelling in pro-wrestling ever. Again, I wish this kind of stereotyping would dissapear, it's so wrong. You may not like his style and character, but to say Omega is a guy who just does a bunch of moves without ryme or reason is the exact opposite of what he does.

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Yeah, Kenny's one of the few guys who clearly puts effort into his match layouts. They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but to say it's not there is the kind of blind troll stuff that Meltzer has to deal with on the regular.  Like I wasn't the biggest fan of Hipster Dad Jericho in his NJPW run, but the guy clearly put a lot of effort into the psychology and character he was trying to build. Everything flowed together and made logical sense, so in the end it was pretty good stuff. 

It's just amazing to me how the narrative has changed from "the company is at fault for putting on a boring, uninspired product" to "fans are assholes for not just accepting what they are being given without question".  I guess it's the result of it being almost an entire generation (oh god, I'm old) since we've had any meaningful competition, and no one is around to challenge the programming WWE is doing to their audience.

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Generally speaking I think WWE's booking - when I actually try to pay attention, which, to be fair, is not often - isn't particularly good. Sometimes it's so shoddy that you actually wonder if they're deliberately trying to sabotage a guy like, say, Roman Reigns (for someone people talk about as being shoved down throats, he's only won just over half his PPV matches, which is sort of nuts. Though I get that wins and exposure aren't necessarily hand in hand). They absolutely do not get a pass for any of their ropey booking or writing or decision-making. But there were elements of those post-Mania crowds that were pretty unbearable, and on the whole I'm someone who thinks that if you pay money for a ticket you should be allowed to cheer or boo whoever the hell you like. I mean, forget the MOVES~ argument and all that guff -- a guy like Sullivan gets brought up and is clearly being positioned as a fresh act that they're intending to inject into things, and after about five minutes of screen time pockets of the audience are already shitting on him (I've seen him probably three times, btw, so maybe he sucks and actually can't wrestle, in which case I guess I'll shut my mouth).

As has been mentioned, WWE have brought it on themselves with all the rubbish they've pumped out over the years, but there's a LITTLE element of them being damned if they do and damned if they don't. I'm loathe to defend them because I largely find their product unwatchable, but shit. Becky and Kofi caught fire and they put the belts on them, but Sullivan is a shitshow and sucks straight out the gate. Ricochet and Black are two guys folk seem to have wanted to get some exposure on the main roster, two guys who are clearly being positioned as fresh acts to liven up a stale TV product, and large sections of the audience don't care and would rather fuck around Mexican Waving during their match. 

No way am I one of the "just shut up and enjoy the PRODUCT man stop complaining so much" crowd, but every year there seems to be a larger percentage of the crowd that would rather chant goofy shit to "get themselves over" than actually give anything a chance. And on the one hand I suppose I can see their point because WWE have been given plenty of chances only to trot out complete horse shit, but on the other hand those post-Wrestlemania crowds are the woooorst and maybe it's all their fault. 

Either way I think there's absolutely an annoying element of self-entitlement with some pockets of WWE crowds. Maybe they should just...shut up and enjoy the PRODUCT man!

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Hey. Hey, guys. Simmer down. The reference to Omega was about his pretentious "I'm going to change the business by having great matches" talking point.

If he does change anything, it won't be by way of great matches. That's not what attracts attention from anybody outside the bubble. End of.

I like Omega just fine. It's not like he's Davey or Seth or anything.

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Judging crowd reaction, cheers, boos, etc. by the fans at the post-Mania Smarklay's Center shows is kind of pointless though. You're not going to get an accurate read from that audience. They've done this shit year after year - the wave, the beach balls, etc. - and have unfortunately been conditioned to think it's part of the experience. WWE should put its foot down and boot all of those assholes out of the building. 

Otherwise, I agree with @SomethingSavage that "workrate" and "movez" don't, never have, and never will mean nearly as much as character and storyline. Never fucking ever! 

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3 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Judging crowd reaction, cheers, boos, etc. by the fans at the post-Mania Smarklay's Center shows is kind of pointless though. You're not going to get an accurate read from that audience. They've done this shit year after year - the wave, the beach balls, etc. - and have unfortunately been conditioned to think it's part of the experience. WWE should put its foot down and boot all of those assholes out of the building. 

Yeah, I sort of joked about that at the end of the post when I realised what I was actually talking about. They're by far the most vocal when it comes to stuff like that and probably an outlier in the grand scheme of things, but I'd be surprised if they were the only ones (again, I don't really watch enough to know one way or the other). 

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Since Kenny Omega was brought up randomly, any idea WTF all of this is?

 

 

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35 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Judging crowd reaction, cheers, boos, etc. by the fans at the post-Mania Smarklay's Center shows is kind of pointless though. You're not going to get an accurate read from that audience. They've done this shit year after year - the wave, the beach balls, etc. - and have unfortunately been conditioned to think it's part of the experience. WWE should put its foot down and boot all of those assholes out of the building. 

Otherwise, I agree with @SomethingSavage that "workrate" and "movez" don't, never have, and never will mean nearly as much as character and storyline. Never fucking ever! 

That's why over the last few years they've kinda paired back on having much angle advancement on those shows.

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47 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Since Kenny Omega was brought up randomly, any idea WTF all of this is ?

More Twitter drama with idiots apparently.

Wait.

Twitter, basically.

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29 minutes ago, FMKK said:

That's why over the last few years they've kinda paired back on having much angle advancement on those shows.

Yeah, these were basically two lame duck shows because the Superstar Shake-Up is coming up, so I'm kind of surprised they were so well-liked here. They were fine, I guess, but they didn't blow me away like they seemed to blow many of you away. Raw After Mania used to be so much more of a "happening" than it was this year.

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2 hours ago, KB8 said:

Generally speaking I think WWE's booking - when I actually try to pay attention, which, to be fair, is not often - isn't particularly good. Sometimes it's so shoddy that you actually wonder if they're deliberately trying to sabotage a guy like, say, Roman Reigns (for someone people talk about as being shoved down throats, he's only won just over half his PPV matches, which is sort of nuts. Though I get that wins and exposure aren't necessarily hand in hand). They absolutely do not get a pass for any of their ropey booking or writing or decision-making. But there were elements of those post-Mania crowds that were pretty unbearable, and on the whole I'm someone who thinks that if you pay money for a ticket you should be allowed to cheer or boo whoever the hell you like. I mean, forget the MOVES~ argument and all that guff -- a guy like Sullivan gets brought up and is clearly being positioned as a fresh act that they're intending to inject into things, and after about five minutes of screen time pockets of the audience are already shitting on him (I've seen him probably three times, btw, so maybe he sucks and actually can't wrestle, in which case I guess I'll shut my mouth).

I with you dude. I always scratch my head at this though. Roman, Rollins, Becky, it's been a mess with every one of them. Even people that they're behind they drive off the rails. It's wins and losses don't matter so nobody is above nobody in the pecking order. I mean Becky is still popular, and even the Rock would be taking pins from fucking Billy Gun, and it didn't really matter in the end. So, yeah wins and loses don't always matter but of course they fucking matter. It's frustrating as fuck.

Some guys need to follow Cena's example, step up.

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Basically wins and losses didn't matter with the Rock because he's the goddamn Rock and had more charisma than anyone in the history of the business and could overcome any loss. WWE took that to mean they can beat anyone and they can stay a top star because reasons. Just like the lesson they learned from Daniel Bryan was they feel the way to book a babyface is to make them lose constantly. 

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I think they had Roman lose a good deal to give off the impression he was not an office favorite or being shoved down people's throats.  Of course it didn't really help him in the end. Plus there were a bunch of segments where he got beat down.  Especially with Brock and Braun

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I actually think Becky has been booked pretty well as an ace the last while.  Even when she gets beat down she always fights back relentlessly and Is only restrained by multiple people.  She stood up to the McMahons for the most part (save the apology angle) and just no sold enough to make it work

 

compare that to Roman willfully giving up his Rumble win to fight Bryan in 2015 simply because hhh and Steph told him to.  For ...reasons???

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9 minutes ago, Strummer said:

Especially with Brock and Braun

And then they hurt Braun. Just because. Remember when the guy was like the hottest thing in the company. See also : Rusev. Damn...

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11 minutes ago, El-P said:

And then they hurt Braun. Just because. Remember when the guy was like the hottest thing in the company. See also : Rusev. Damn...

Turning Braun was my “fuck this” moment.  The only bits of Raw I have watched since was when Roman came back and when I heard Heavy Machinery was up.

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17 minutes ago, Strummer said:

I actually think Becky has been booked pretty well as an ace the last while.  Even when she gets beat down she always fights back relentlessly and Is only restrained by multiple people.  She stood up to the McMahons for the most part (save the apology angle) and just no sold enough to make it work

 

compare that to Roman willfully giving up his Rumble win to fight Bryan in 2015 simply because hhh and Steph told him to.  For ...reasons???

She has yes, but the bar's low. Tapping at the Rumble is still an strange one.

It was shocking how they botched Roman from the start. It feels like they're about to drop the ball with him this second chance too. He's return has been flat as fuck so far. I'd have him work with a fresh guy, smaller guy. Sami Zayn or even Bryan.

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9 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

She has yes, but the bar's low. Tapping at the Rumble is still an strange one.

It was shocking how they botched Roman from the start. It feels like they're about to drop the ball with him this second chance too. He's return has been flat as fuck so far. I'd have him work with a fresh guy, smaller guy. Sami Zayn or even Bryan.

Just fucking turn him on Seth. He'll probably be getting cheers by Summerslam.

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I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: It amazes me how great Seth seemed to look in that Shield six-man tag at Elimination Chamber or Fastlane, whichever PPV it was, but loses so much when he's by himself. The same could probably be said, in all honesty, for Dean Ambrose and Roman Reigns as well.

The Shield really was greater than the sum of its parts. Together, there's a magic than they haven't quite achieved separately. 

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2 hours ago, Badlittlekitten said:

She has yes, but the bar's low. Tapping at the Rumble is still an strange one.

extremely. I've hated becky's booking all year. Tapping at the Rumble then Ronda having to save her at Fastlane and hand her the WM spot to the fluke looking rollup win at Mania.

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