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Ricky Jackson

NXT Takeover: Toronto 2019

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4 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

I haven't kept up with NXT in a long while, haven't even seen the last 2-3 Takeovers, so this is a legit honest question. What's the main difference between Asuka's reign and Shayna's? Asuka had the belt for almost double the time and she didn't even put anyone over for it, yet I don't remember reading half the complaints about her title run compared to Blazer. Which is saying something because there was a very vocal portion of the fanbase that really didn't like Asuka's last few months as champ.

I want to have a go at answering this, since they are similar reigns and like I said, I love Shayna Baszler way more than is healthy or sane and I'm bowled over with every single in ring performance of hers so like, it's not her.

There are differences. The first worth noting is to repeat what someone above me said, that we already had the long, dominant reign from Asuka, and this one started not long after it. For over three years the women's title has been largely held by dominant champions and defended in matches where people assumed it wouldn't change hands. That is a long time.

Another difference is in how the two are presented. It's easy to forget now that she's just another main roster dork and more joshi workers have come in, but when Asuka came to NXT and started fucking sheilas up it was INSANE. It felt DIFFERENT. She felt different to everyone else, anyone who had come before her or anyone she was competing with. She was very much Other, almost like Brock Lesnar when he first came back to wrestling with the aura that he had. Her matches were not like other matches. Her appearances felt special. She was murdering folk for sport, and ACTED like she was murdering folk for sport. And during her reign, it didn't really hurt anyone to lose a title challenge to her. You were fighting The Other, the undefeated ace, and if you came close and gave her a fight, that was something. Plus, once she went over the year mark it became this historical, once-in-a-generation reign we got to witness too.

Shayna isn't really the Other. She's just a super dominant athlete, who comes off as streets ahead of anyone she faces. And now, that coupled with having dorks to do run in finishes with, it just feels like nobody has a chance. And when people lose to Shayna, they don't really gain much from it because she's not Otherworldly in the same way. So you have the untouchable aspect, without having that special feeling to make it okay that nobody could touch her. And again I say this as someone who is in creepy ass love with Shayna.

The other key difference is that Asuka was a face and Shayna is a heel. Sometimes we think we're too analytical to really be affected by things like that, but honestly, its just... nicer to sit through a strong babyface ace reign than a strong heel reign, especially one that comes with a lot of cheap run in finishes. It's perpetually disappointing, and that's not fun.

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5 hours ago, brocklock said:

I'd rather watch that horrific abomination of the near 50 minute HHH/HBK Hell In A Cell match than any of these Cole/Gargano matches.

Even before I knew what a "self-conscious epic" was, I knew that HHH-HBK match was a self-conscious epic.

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2 hours ago, FMKK said:

I'm not hugely connected to NXT but perhaps the difference is just that Shayna has come second doing a similar type of reign to Asuka and people are tired of it. It seems like HHH just doesn't know how to book conclusions. We all thought his too long matches, too long feuds and too long title reigns were ego gone wild during his reign of terror but maybe the guy just doesn't know how to do anything else...

To add to this. Her matches are also worse and more formula than Asuka's were during her reign. It also hurts that they didn't do anything to rebuild the division between the dominate reigns.

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9 minutes ago, Jimmy Redman said:

The other key difference is that Asuka was a face and Shayna is a heel. Sometimes we think we're too analytical to really be affected by things like that, but honestly, its just... nicer to sit through a strong babyface ace reign than a strong heel reign, especially one that comes with a lot of cheap run in finishes. It's perpetually disappointing, and that's not fun.

I actually think this is a key point and a greater point to the problems with WWE and wrestling as a whole. There is a formula to wrestling for a reason even when you are smart. Back in the day you would job the heel down the card and ship them out. But a heel can also just go out the next night and be an obnoxious asshole and the fans will want to see them get beat again. I think it also comes down to the fact that even as cynical as we are that deep down we still want to see the heel lose and the face win.

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4 hours ago, NitroFan said:

The NXT fanbase love this shit. Meltzer will give it 5 stars.

Interestingly enough Dave was rather critical (although he agrees it "wasn't bad"). 

 

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3 hours ago, rovert said:

Meltzer absolutely hated Cole/Gargano. You guys need a new talking point.

Fascinated to see his review, since he loved the last two.

I'm watching the match now, and it's... fine? The first fall was a series of moves and kinda dull. I liked the way the intensity ratcheted up in the second fall, but there was a bit too much meandering brawling. The third fall didn't do a great job of selling the length of the match, but it was fun and creative (can't believe no one had swiped the Rocco-Scorp finish in 25 years). Might have worked better if they'd just done the weapons cage match as a one fall, 20-25 minute match?

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1 hour ago, Boss Rock said:

Even before I knew what a "self-conscious epic" was, I knew that HHH-HBK match was a self-conscious epic.

I grabbed the show this morning and was watching it up until the main event and paused when they rang the bell.  There were 54 minutes left in the file. I opted to pass on that viewing experience.

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3 hours ago, Jimmy Redman said:

I want to have a go at answering this, since they are similar reigns and like I said, I love Shayna Baszler way more than is healthy or sane and I'm bowled over with every single in ring performance of hers so like, it's not her.

There are differences. The first worth noting is to repeat what someone above me said, that we already had the long, dominant reign from Asuka, and this one started not long after it. For over three years the women's title has been largely held by dominant champions and defended in matches where people assumed it wouldn't change hands. That is a long time.

Another difference is in how the two are presented. It's easy to forget now that she's just another main roster dork and more joshi workers have come in, but when Asuka came to NXT and started fucking sheilas up it was INSANE. It felt DIFFERENT. She felt different to everyone else, anyone who had come before her or anyone she was competing with. She was very much Other, almost like Brock Lesnar when he first came back to wrestling with the aura that he had. Her matches were not like other matches. Her appearances felt special. She was murdering folk for sport, and ACTED like she was murdering folk for sport. And during her reign, it didn't really hurt anyone to lose a title challenge to her. You were fighting The Other, the undefeated ace, and if you came close and gave her a fight, that was something. Plus, once she went over the year mark it became this historical, once-in-a-generation reign we got to witness too.

Shayna isn't really the Other. She's just a super dominant athlete, who comes off as streets ahead of anyone she faces. And now, that coupled with having dorks to do run in finishes with, it just feels like nobody has a chance. And when people lose to Shayna, they don't really gain much from it because she's not Otherworldly in the same way. So you have the untouchable aspect, without having that special feeling to make it okay that nobody could touch her. And again I say this as someone who is in creepy ass love with Shayna.

The other key difference is that Asuka was a face and Shayna is a heel. Sometimes we think we're too analytical to really be affected by things like that, but honestly, its just... nicer to sit through a strong babyface ace reign than a strong heel reign, especially one that comes with a lot of cheap run in finishes. It's perpetually disappointing, and that's not fun. 

That was awesome, thanks! @FMKK too :D

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3 hours ago, Boss Rock said:

Even before I knew what a "self-conscious epic" was, I knew that HHH-HBK match was a self-conscious epic.

I think that might of created the subgenre of self conscious self conscious epic. These Gargano matches over the last year definitely has Shawn and Hunter's finger prints all over them.

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God, Hunter and Shawn running the show after Vince dies is not going to be pretty. The soap opera reaction shots are going to be the new shaky cam.

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1 hour ago, FMKK said:

The soap opera reaction shots are going to be the new shaky cam.

To be fair, I'd make that trade since the shaky cam is literally vomit inducing. 

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21 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

I thought that match was dumb and boring as shit, but the crowd only got hotter and hotter with each new weapon introduced, so what the fuck do I know 

On TV it sounded like they got killed once they realized that the bag did not contain thumbtacks but tools. The worst looking barbed wire in pro wrestling history did not get them back in.

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22 hours ago, rovert said:

 

Meltzer absolutely hated Cole/Gargano. You guys need a new talking point.

Luckily Scott Keith gave it 6 stars and thinks it's the best match in WWE history, and I don't think he's being sarcastic 

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13 minutes ago, NotJayTabb said:

Luckily Scott Keith gave it 6 stars and thinks it's the best match in WWE history, and I don't think he's being sarcastic 

He probably thinks Fast &a Furious 7 is the best film of all time as well

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1 hour ago, Herodes said:

The type of person who not only enjoys Fast and Furious films but whose library of books only includes wrestling biographies and thinks Lost was a good show.

Kevin Smith films.

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5 hours ago, NotJayTabb said:

Luckily Scott Keith gave it 6 stars and thinks it's the best match in WWE history, and I don't think he's being sarcastic 

The future of wrestling discussion is in the safest of hands, I can see

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On 8/11/2019 at 10:30 PM, KawadaSmile said:

Wonder what changed

Meltzer wasn't exhausted by the G1 reviewing those matches I guess. You can make your "he's getting checks from AEW" now jokes too!

If you didn't like the match you didn't like the match. I've no issue with that.

But thinking Meltzer tricked people into liking it or the style in general is silly as is knocking the fans, especially those who were there live who did enjoy it. Likewise the stuff about that he can't work or doesn't know what he is doing. All that comes across as out of touch and elitist to me. Most of Gargano's matches have the crowd eating out of his hand with some of the loudest reactions in company history if not the loudest. Gargano has NXT's first million-dollar gate, the biggest NXT gate in the US and in Canada respectively. With a very poor Takeover win-loss record, a lot of questionable Creative and some really bad luck (Ciampa) meaning had to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

In something I don't advise wrestlers to do Johnny randomly lashed out at a friend of mine who buried the match completely last night:

Obviously, I still agree with Gargano here.

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I’m going to be the old man yelling at a cloud here, but: A professional wrestler should not be responding to “reviews” of their matches. He should be talking about how he’s going to get revenge for the loss/win back his championship/hurt the opponent who wronged him. Fuck this “putting on a great show” bullshit. 

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2 hours ago, Log said:

I’m going to be the old man yelling at a cloud here, but: A professional wrestler should not be responding to “reviews” of their matches. He should be talking about how he’s going to get revenge for the loss/win back his championship/hurt the opponent who wronged him. Fuck this “putting on a great show” bullshit. 

Right there with you. That's mark shit and way too many wrestlers come off like marks getting worked by the fans these days. Social media was one of the worst things that happened to wrestling. 

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3 hours ago, rovert said:

Meltzer wasn't exhausted by the G1 reviewing those matches I guess. You can make your "he's getting checks from AEW" now jokes too!

If you didn't like the match you didn't like the match. I've no issue with that.

But thinking Meltzer tricked people into liking it or the style in general is silly as is knocking the fans, especially those who were there live who did enjoy it. Likewise the stuff about that he can't work or doesn't know what he is doing. All that comes across as out of touch and elitist to me. Most of Gargano's matches have the crowd eating out of his hand with some of the loudest reactions in company history if not the loudest. Gargano has NXT's first million-dollar gate, the biggest NXT gate in the US and in Canada respectively. With a very poor Takeover win-loss record, a lot of questionable Creative and some really bad luck (Ciampa) meaning had to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

In something I don't advise wrestlers to do Johnny randomly lashed out at a friend of mine who buried the match completely last night:

Obviously, I still agree with Gargano here.

Who is this in response to?

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