The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[El-P]

You don't.

[gordi]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Fun fact : my mind is so polluted by pro-wrestling that I doubt I ever shaved my hair and not think, for a few seconds at least, about some hair shaving stipulations, like Chavo's in WCW or Jarret in WWF (which wasn't worth a shit since he never was shaved, really). Yep. 30 years of pro-wrestling do that to your head (in many ways).

I started shaving my head so long ago that my pro wrestling friends made jokes about me being a Russian. Then I moved away to Europe and when I came back to Canada in 2001 I got all the Goldberg/Austin/Howard Finkel comparisons. Now in Japan people sometimes call me White Mutoh (and sometimes also Stone Cold).

[gordi]

22 hours ago, Bix said:

The original idea was Brian, being Jim's friend, having a strong knowledge of old school wrestling, and having a good memory for what Jim's discussed on past shows/shoot interviews, would be the ideal co-host to keep Jim talking about the stuff he loves and out of angry ranting mode.

 

Then AEW launched and Jim's rants stuck a nerve with a specific subset of fans, resulting in the show's popularity exploding. So they're never gonna go back to the old, better format because it's been the much less lucrative one.

So, kind of like this classic episode of Newhart:

 

[War is Raw]

On 5/22/2020 at 3:58 PM, sek69 said:

Other than the name, I don't really see what's inherently racist about the Kabuki Warriors gimmick, and even the name I would consider more lazy than anything. 

Paige said Asuka came up with the gimmick. Asuka suggested "The Kabuki Girls" and Paige suggested "The Kabuki Warriors". At the time "creative had nothing" for Asuka and Sane so Asuka came up with new gimmick to get booked. Asuka said her inspiration was The Crush Girls (may have been mistranslated) but it's really Bull Nakano and Dump Matsumoto's tag gimmick when they were young. There is nothing stereotypical or racist about Bull and Dump.

Most of the time it's viewed as "not racist" if the talent came up with, or enjoys, it. Eddie Guerrero defended his WWE heel gimmick, and said it was based on real guys he knew in his neighborhood. Cryme Tyme...

100% sure Asuka and Kairi don't see any offense to it. Asuka was criticized about the language barrier and now speaks her native tongue. Old guys like Lawler and Corny see that as getting heat. Maybe a random casual fan tuning in thinks it's a step backwards. But fans love her and she can't be a heel no matter what.

I guess one could argue (not me) if it is a foreign heel gimmick, and if it had a place in modern wrestling, but the women never thought of that because it's normal to them. I recall fans online not liking the Rusev vs USA angle up until Cena beat him where fans sympathized with him.

 

[MoS]

My litmus test is to see if the gimmick is meant to make people laugh in derision. While Asuka and Sane are heels, they are honestly portrayed as awesome so I have no issues with it. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, War is Raw said:

At the time "creative had nothing" for Asuka and Sane so Asuka came up with new gimmick to get booked.

This is insane to even think about Asuka and Sane having nothing to do. Who are these fucking guys in creative, seriously ?

[Loss]

Vince. "Creative has nothing for you" is just code for "Vince isn't high on you", but they avoid that language to protect him and make someone else the fall guy.

[War is Raw]

Yes, this was when WWE wanted Wrestlemania would be a 3-way with RR vs Becky vs Charlotte. So Asuka- who had beaten Becky clean at the 2019 Royal Rumble for the SD title- was kept out of that main event scene so she could defend her SD title against that women's division. But she dropped the title so Charlotte could have gold in the 3-Way. Asuka was also cancelled from Wrestlemania 35. Then Kairi was called up from NXT in April to be paired with Asuka. WWE had problems figuring out how to get them to speak and assigned Paige. But they had no plans beyond that any real storylines besides being challengers for the Iconics on a Japanese tour. So they took a hiatus and came back as heels, although no one really boos them. Of course things have a way of working out in the end (Asuka is champ since Becky left.)

But yeah, Vince sees Asuka and Kairi as tough sells, so the writers had to scramble to help them and HHH had to stick his neck out to push them, especially considering Vince's views on Asian women:

Quote

Jim Ross on Gail Kim:

Vince said to me, “Do you want to hire this Asian girl, right? I don’t know...I just don’t know.”

I said, “Vince, there’s a lot of guys who like Asian women. There’s Asian porn sites. Asian women have a lot of sex appeal to guys, plus she’s really good.” 

McMahon then responded, “No! No! No way, get out,” as if he didn’t believe such a thing as Asian porn could exist.

WWE signed Gail Kim in 2002, but she left in 2004 due to a lack of wrestling opportunities. She returned in 2008, but left again in 2011, fed up with her lack of opportunity to wrestle.

 

 

[El-P]

To me the saddest thing is JR trying to sell Gail Kim, who's a fantastic worker, by mentioning Asian porn sites... That's appaling (that would be appaling about anyone, but it's not like her role was to be eye candy anyway like say, a Kelly Kelly).

[TonyPulis'Cap]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

To me the saddest thing is JR trying to sell Gail Kim, who's a fantastic worker, by mentioning Asian porn sites... That's appaling (that would be appaling about anyone, but it's not like her role was to be eye candy anyway like say, a Kelly Kelly).

Yep. Very much an indictment of the things wrong are that "...plus she's really good" is the fourth reason given for trying to convince Vince she was worth hiring.  

[PhilTLL]

Of course that's gross in any objective sense, but in 2002 WWE, women were used foremost as objects for men to ogle. 

[sek69]

I'm sure people still have to sell Vince on women in the company the same way today. I'd be willing to bet that's why he doesn't see Shayna as a star or why he missed out on Bayley so bad. If Vince doesn't want to fuck you, you can't be a star. The only way women who don't confirm to Vince's ideal can be stars is if they are big monsters. 

[southofheavy]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

This is insane to even think about Asuka and Sane having nothing to do. Who are these fucking guys in creative, seriously ?

Asuka vs Io is RIGHT THERE and books itself. 

[El-P]

10 minutes ago, sek69 said:

The only way women who don't confirm to Vince's ideal can be stars is if they are big monsters. 

And samoan.

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, the only thing distinctively ethnic about the Kabuki Warriors is their name. They're basically Japanese IIconics. It's for that reason that the gimmick has go-away heat with me, but that's neither here nor there.

[Big Pete]

It remains to be seen, but Cornette appears to be done with AEW after Double Or Nothing.

[MoS]

One can only hope and pray that is indeed the case

[Big Pete]

I really want him to cover his time in ROH circa 2009-12.

He touched on his relationship with the Bucks. Apologies for any inaccuracies, but apparantly the idea of this being an elaborate angle started in Global Force Wrestling, when Cornette was trying to be cordial in the locker room. The Bucks told the story and the IWC just ran wild with it, turning what was meant as a polite gesture into Cornette trying to earn a pay day which he says he doesn't need.

He then went back to their ROH days. In 2011, the Bucks contacted Hunter about joining the promotion. Cornette gave the OK with the understanding that they wouldn't join until their contracts were up in TNA, but they sought an early release so there they were. Cornette didn't have time to come up with any plans for them since he was in the thick of Haas and Benjamin, the Briscoes and the All Night Express, but he still found room for them on the card.

Anyways, those at Sinclair didn't want to fly in that many wrestlers and considering their spot on the card, the Bucks were getting paid too much to begin with. They were a prelim tag team, yet were making more money than the main eventers when you factor in additional expenses. Furthermore, they struggled to follow instructions and when they were told to ease up on the comedy spots they were caught flat footed.

Cornette went into detail about the pay scale and gave the example of the All Night Express. Despite Rhett doing most of the work, he was only getting paid $150 per shot, while Kenny King was on $350 despite being lazy and Cornette tried to rectify that discrepency.

Where I disagree with Jim is that he went couldn't figure out how the fans could take the Bucks seriously against the likes of the Briscoes, Haas and Benjamin, The Kings of Wrestling (who were basically gone by the time the Bucks came in, Hero worked a couple more shots while he worked on his elevated enzymes), American Wolves (who were being broken up, much to the chagrin of both performers) and hilariously enough The All Night Express, the over-pushed team ROH fans put up with.

I can understand the Bucks not fitting his aesthetic and being more fiscally responsible, but to say they're not on that level is just absurd.

[Laz]

To say Rhett Titus did more work than Kenny King is enough to disqualify Corny from ever having a say in a promotion ever again. Titus is on a shortlist of talent who never, ever should have moved beyond prelim/jobber status.

[cactus]

I'd like to hear him cover more ROH stuff too. Some of the stuff in the Double or Nothing review made me cringe. Brian Last going on how wrestling isn't meant to be fun, Corny whinging about how they wasted weapons on a women's match, it's starting to become too much for me. For every few good points he makes, he has to follow it up with a shit take.

[MoS]

It's funny he thought Young Bucks would not look believable against those teams, cuz I just saw them face off with one of Corny's favourite teams and it was not the Bucks that looked small there. 

[FMKK]

16 hours ago, cactus said:

I'd like to hear him cover more ROH stuff too. Some of the stuff in the Double or Nothing review made me cringe. Brian Last going on how wrestling isn't meant to be fun, Corny whinging about how they wasted weapons on a women's match, it's starting to become too much for me. For every few good points he makes, he has to follow it up with a shit take.

For all that people say about Corny on these shows, I think Last is the absolute dirt worst

[C.S.]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:25 AM, Big Pete said:

Cornette went into detail about the pay scale and gave the example of the All Night Express. Despite Rhett doing most of the work, he was only getting paid $150 per shot, while Kenny King was on $350 despite being lazy and Cornette tried to rectify that discrepency. 

Did Cornette say Kenny King was lazy, or is that your own commentary? If Cornette said it, referring to a black man lazy is not exactly the best look, whether he meant it in a racial way or not - and it's becoming harder and harder to give the wildly out of touch "it was a starvation joke" Cornette the benefit of the doubt on things like this.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

Did Cornette say Kenny King was lazy, or is that your own commentary? If Cornette said it, referring to a black man lazy is not exactly the best look, whether he meant it in a racial way or not - and it's becoming harder and harder to give the wildly out of touch "it was a starvation joke" Cornette the benefit of the doubt on things like this.

Based on their history, I don't believe Cornette's problems with Kenny King are racially based. I touched on this back in November in this thread. Of course, there are people who will attribute pretty much negative opinion Cornette has to racism/sexism/homophobia or whatever, but in this case I honestly don't think race enters into it.  Cornette has used some racist language for sure, and the Gangsta's angle pretty much speaks for itself, but I've never heard him say anything like "black people are lazy" or anything like that. When it comes to Kenny King, I think it pretty much comes down to the fact that King and Cornette had a handshake agreement and King went back on it.

[Laz]

Neither do I. Not when he praises guys like Rock, Ron Simmons, D'Lo Brown, Shelton Benjamin, and others. He's definitely got some outdated and backwards views, but I think most of the heat he has with King is because of how King left ROH and his general attitude.