WWE TV 12/02 - 12/08 DiCaprio is setting the world on fire!

[sek69]

24 minutes ago, Stiva said:

It definitely reeks of Heyman. If this was 1998, the program ends with Rusev piledriving Lana through a table.

They definitely seem to have the same kind of issues re: women. The only difference is Heyman could actually book wrestling at one point.

[Coffey]

3 hours ago, sek69 said:

Saw it mentioned elsewhere that it's kind of fucked up when you stop to think that one of their main angles is "woman files restraining order against her soon to be ex husband, but she's the heel and he's the babyface" considering how often that happens IRL and results in violence against the woman.

How about ex-wife & new black boyfriend file a restraining order against ex-husband & cops arrest the black guy instead? That happened last night. "We do things differently in Tennessee, pal!"

[WingedEagle]

Until last night the entire Lashley/Ruseve feud had been fast forward material.  Then Lana came out in that dress.  My god.  

Charlotte vs. Kabuki Warriors was shockingly pretty great.  I had zero confidence in their ability to lay out an interesting handicap match.  Not only did they do that, but they avoided any outside shenanigans and worked a clean finish to presumably build to a PPV match.  Best TV match in some time.

[El-P]

Funny that some years after the #womensevolution, the only notable angle they are running in late 2019 is all about a women getting totally sexually objectified and painted as a complete slut. (and for those who wonder, I do follow the angle on Youtube, it's fascinatingly terrible)

[Blehschmidt]

2 hours ago, Coffey said:

How about ex-wife & new black boyfriend file a restraining order against ex-husband & cops arrest the black guy instead? That happened last night. "We do things differently in Tennessee, pal!"

Maybe this is the most forward thinking, make a statement booking ever done by WWE trying to get people to see the injustice that runs rampant in society ....or maybe the angle is fucking terrible.

One of those two for sure.

 

[sek69]

Lashley shoulder checked the cop on the way past, so there was cause for the cops to arrest him. Problem is none of the announcers mentioned it so it looked like the cops were doing some Southern justice (non Godwinns version). 

[KawadaSmile]

Precisely. I mean, the angle still had those implications, but make your announcers draw attention to the shoulder check and all that.

[Tim Evans]

I usually don't listen to the commentary during shows but man Lawler was expecially bad last night. Between totally burying Tozawa and the line during the Kabuki Warriors entrance where he broke out the asian accent that was way worse than what Cornette did, it was bad. Joe and Vic are good together since I guess Dio is gone.

[KawadaSmile]

Lawler is pretty much a more energetic JR which means he almost openly despises the product, it's just as openly racist, and is winging it for the money, yet people would be willing to defend him because of like two good years in wrestling's biggest period.

[DMJ]

This could be moved to a more relevant thread, but as good as Lawler is as a wrestler is as bad as he is as a commentator. One of the all-time worst.

I've not just come to this conclusion today nor have I been screaming it for 20 years - it is just one of those ideas that I think I've always been partially sure of, but am now willing to say, full stop. During the New Generation years, the commentary in WWE was woeful but just because he may have been the "best of the worst" doesn't mean he was good. Plus, I actually think his prevalence on commentary hurt his matches and angles, even against Bret Hart. I never "got" that feud because, to me, as a 10 year old kid with no knowledge of Lawler's background, it seemed like former World Champion Bret Hart was feuding with a slightly pudgy commentator who told bad jokes. And unlike Bobby Heenan, whose family of clients was filled with heavy hitters who did the fighting for him, Lawler's prized combatants were an evil dentist and Hakushi (who was, admittedly, super cool, but kinda came-and-went).

Moving on from 95' and into the Attitude Era, Lawler's in-ring appearances for the WWE dwindled down and he became all about catcalls. His infatuation with women's breasts was not funny then, even to a now 13-14 year old DMJ, and it has not aged well at all in the time since. And while Jim Ross did make some legendary calls during this time frame, calls that would justifiably make his case for being the best pro-wrestling voice of all time, there's not a single match I can recall that I walked away thinking Jerry Lawler did anything remotely special or good. He has no 92' Royal Rumble performance like Heenan does. Was he even on commentator during Hell in Cell 98'? The only things anyone remembers are JR's calls. Ditto for every heel turn of that era or any time Vince McMahon did something particularly dastardly. Lawler's legacy as a commentator is "puppies." That's it. 

I'd argue that Lawler was actually at his best during the PG Era, basically just praising John Cena every week (Did he coin the phrase "Big Match John"?). He wasn't really a heel, he was no longer just objectifying women for 2 hours a night (though, he still did often find time for that), and because he had become RAW's "Not-So-Dirty Uncle," he had become wallpaper except when a heel needed to get heat and would berate him. He was fine in the role, but not iconic. He helped The Miz get even more over. He probably took an RKO or two somewhere in that timeline. So, when I read the post above and see the phrase "had two good years," part of me is left wondering, like, were those years 2007-2008 or something? Because it certainly wasn't 97-98. 

I know its a matter of taste. Jerry Lawler probably helped sell a lot of Diva calendars and DVDs in his time. But to me, even when I was a sex-crazed teenager with his hormones running wilder than Hulkamania, I did not tune in to wrestling to see half-naked women and was not entertained by a guy making corny jokes and "innuendos" that barely counted as innuendos. You could see half-nude women practically anywhere by then but especially on the internet (which, for those who possibly didn't know, was in fact aorund by the time I was 12 and was already filled with so much porn). And because that was Lawler's bread-and-butter, his few wrestling-related insights were always just a stop-gap before the next reference to a woman's body. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, DMJ said:

I've not just come to this conclusion today nor have I been screaming it for 20 years - it is just one of those ideas that I think I've always been partially sure of, but am now willing to say, full stop. During the New Generation years, the commentary in WWE was woeful but just because he may have been the "best of the worst" doesn't mean he was good. Plus, I actually think his prevalence on commentary hurt his matches and angles, even against Bret Hart. I never "got" that feud because, to me, as a 10 year old kid with no knowledge of Lawler's background, it seemed like former World Champion Bret Hart was feuding with a slightly pudgy commentator who told bad jokes. And unlike Bobby Heenan, whose family of clients was filled with heavy hitters who did the fighting for him, Lawler's prized combatants were an evil dentist and Hakushi (who was, admittedly, super cool, but kinda came-and-went).

I can totally relate to that. I mentioned on the JR Podcast thread that basically the Lawler episode reminded me that most of Lawler's WWE stint had been awful. I only appreciated the first Bret Hart feud from 1993 way after the fact, at the time, not having any notion of who Lawler was (and watching the show in French, without Lawler's announcing), "slightly pudgy commentator" was exactly how Lawler came off to me. 

1 hour ago, DMJ said:

Moving on from 95' and into the Attitude Era, Lawler's in-ring appearances for the WWE dwindled down and he became all about catcalls. His infatuation with women's breasts was not funny then, even to a now 13-14 year old DMJ, and it has not aged well at all in the time since. And while Jim Ross did make some legendary calls during this time frame, calls that would justifiably make his case for being the best pro-wrestling voice of all time, there's not a single match I can recall that I walked away thinking Jerry Lawler did anything remotely special or good. He has no 92' Royal Rumble performance like Heenan does. Was he even on commentator during Hell in Cell 98'? The only things anyone remembers are JR's calls. Ditto for every heel turn of that era or any time Vince McMahon did something particularly dastardly. Lawler's legacy as a commentator is "puppies." That's it. 

I probably wouldn't be so hard on Lawler from 95-97, but I definitely agree he was far removed from Heenan or Ventura, hell, even Heenan on Nitro was much better in getting the NWO angle over. And yeah, "puppies" is pretty much his legacy from the Attitude Era. When you add the fact he had "legal issues" as they said on the aforementioned podcast for allegedly raping 16 years old girls and his infamous taste for younger women in general, that has aged horribly (and honestly was already awful and annoying as fuck back then). 

Lawles is definitely an overrated figure in pro-wrestling folklore (and yeah, I mean overrated in general, I never ever bought into the post-DVDVR Memphis set narrative of Lawler being this all-time great worker either, I debated for countless hours about this back then; I settled on "very good", which came off as an insult to the Memphis-heads) and honestly a shady character that is getting multiple passes where most people would not. Maybe that's because he throws a great punch.

[sek69]

Lawler's an interesting case. His work in Memphis was usually anywhere from good to outstanding depending on who he was facing, and you can't deny anyone who could draw the numbers he did in the same towns every week. My first experience of him was the title unification feud with Kerry Von Erich where he had to do pretty much all the work both on promos and in the ring, and as someone who grew up watching WCCW he did his job getting over with me as a villain.  

The problem is Commentator Jerry is only going to be what Vince wants him to be. He was 100% heel when he came in and was feuding with Jake and Bret. He was horny Uncle Jerry during the Attitude Era when it was all about bra and panty matches and Playboy shoots. Now Vince wants him to go heel again and that's what he's doing now being Seth's cheerleader on Raw. It's been the running joke that Lawler pays zero attention to anything WWE when he's not on the job, so he pretty much runs on a combination of his own quick wit and whatever's being fed through his headset.

[Tim Evans]

Good episode of NXT tv tonight building up matches for the next two weeks. UE vs Lee/Ciampa/Dijakovic and Riddle/Ohono are worth watching. Excited for Garza/Lio next week and Rhea/Shayna in two weeks plus Cole vs the winner of Finn/Lee/Ciampa for the respective titles.  It was also good to see Kushida back from injury.

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, sek69 said:

Lawler's an interesting case. His work in Memphis was usually anywhere from good to outstanding depending on who he was facing, and you can't deny anyone who could draw the numbers he did in the same towns every week. My first experience of him was the title unification feud with Kerry Von Erich where he had to do pretty much all the work both on promos and in the ring, and as someone who grew up watching WCCW he did his job getting over with me as a villain. 

I agree.  I can't argue with anybody who criticizes Lawler's work as a Color Commentator, and I would never dream of trying.  And I would never try and justify or excuse the allegations about his personal life.  I don't know how many of the stories about him are true, and I really don't want to know, to be honest.  But as an actual Professional Wrestler, I don't see any reasonable or logical argument against the guy...and I was never even a big fan of Memphis Wrestling.  I just can't deny the skill the guy had and I'm not blind. He was a brilliant performer and was pretty much a genius when it came to the "less is more" style, psychology and getting the most of his opponents and feuds.  They should force a lot of the younger talent today study Jerry Lawler for a lesson on how to get over, stay over and have compelling matches and angles without having to kill yourself or do a million high risk moves. 

And yeah, you can't understate the greatness of that punch, either.

[KawadaSmile]

14 hours ago, Tim Evans said:

Good episode of NXT tv tonight building up matches for the next two weeks. UE vs Lee/Ciampa/Dijakovic and Riddle/Ohono are worth watching. Excited for Garza/Lio next week and Rhea/Shayna in two weeks plus Cole vs the winner of Finn/Lee/Ciampa for the respective titles.  It was also good to see Kushida back from injury.

Man, that Kushida video was spectacular.

 

Also worth noting is that Dakota Kai is going to be huge pretty soon. Her new look is incredible, and NXT deserves a lot of praise in altering wrestlers appearances in ways that benefit them. Look what they did to Io! And the main roster turned Kairi Sane, one of the most adorable people walking this planet, into an amazing heel. Incredible stuff.

[rovert]

52 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

Man, that Kushida video was spectacular.

 

Also worth noting is that Dakota Kai is going to be huge pretty soon. Her new look is incredible, and NXT deserves a lot of praise in altering wrestlers appearances in ways that benefit them. Look what they did to Io! And the main roster turned Kairi Sane, one of the most adorable people walking this planet, into an amazing heel. Incredible stuff.

It was. Jeremy Borash made that video. You can always tell as he loves drones and overhead shots.

WWE not just turning female wrestlers but also giving them a mature look is a fairly interesting developmental. WWE women's wrestlers having a career longer than 3-4 years or being employed past their early 30s is still a fairly new thing. Bayley is 30 and Dakota Kai is 31 you can't rock the girl next door type look forever. 

NXT was very good this week as it is usually. I wish it was a bit more pass remarkable. It is almost too efficiently booked. 

[sek69]

I dunno, Kairi still looks like the little sister that mom made the big sister take along with her when she goes out. Io on the other hand is amazing in her role so props to them for figuring out that she's awesome and letting her be awesome.

[The Thread Killer]

16 hours ago, Tim Evans said:

Good episode of NXT tv tonight building up matches for the next two weeks. UE vs Lee/Ciampa/Dijakovic and Riddle/Ohono are worth watching. Excited for Garza/Lio next week and Rhea/Shayna in two weeks plus Cole vs the winner of Finn/Lee/Ciampa for the respective titles.  It was also good to see Kushida back from injury.

I agree, I thought NXT was really solid this week.  I'm pretty much over the Dain/Dunne rivalry but that was still a very good opener and a smart way to start the show. I do hope Priest is back sooner than later. I thought Keith Lee came across really well in his confrontation with the Undisputed Era.  I think his promos are improving.  The Kushida video package was excellent. The Riddle/Ohno match was pretty good, although I think that rivalry has really run it's course (even though we got an extended break from it) because four matches seems like a bit much, especially since Ohno can't beat Riddle. I really liked the Cameron Grimes/Kushida match a lot...and most importantly the Main Event was excellent.  I had just assumed that Ciampa would be getting the next shot at Cole but now I'm not sure who is going to win that Triple Threat and the title shot.  Keith Lee (whoop whoop) has a ton of momentum right now and they might want to put the championship on him.  I wouldn't complain if they did.  I can't wait for the Baszler/Ripley match in a couple of weeks either, that has the potential to be very good.  And finally, Baszler has a challenger who has a very good chance at beating her.

[Slasher]

I don't care who wins the triple threat but whoever it is needs to win the belt from Cole.

[The Thread Killer]

Hey imagine if Keith Lee wins the #1 Contender's Match, and then goes on to beat Adam Cole for the NXT Championship?

And then, imagine if WALTER retains the NXT UK Championship against Joe Coffey at NXT UK: Takeover Blackpool II?

And then, since World's Collide in January is supposed to be an NXT vs. NXT UK show, imagine if the main event was Keith Lee vs. WALTER, Title vs. Title?

That would be cool.

[Mad Dog]

On 12/3/2019 at 12:32 PM, sek69 said:

They definitely seem to have the same kind of issues re: women. The only difference is Heyman could actually book wrestling at one point.

I think a lot of people owe Stephanie an apology for the Al Wilson shit they blamed on her.

[gordi]

44 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

Hey imagine if Keith Lee wins the #1 Contender's Match, and then goes on to beat Adam Cole for the NXT Championship?

And then, imagine if WALTER retains the NXT UK Championship against Joe Coffey at NXT UK: Takeover Blackpool II?

And then, since World's Collide in January is supposed to be an NXT vs. NXT UK show, imagine if the main event was Keith Lee vs. WALTER, Title vs. Title?

That would be cool.

Indeed it would. 

[sek69]

25 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

I think a lot of people owe Stephanie an apology for the Al Wilson shit they blamed on her.

She was still in charge of creative, if someone suggests a shit idea it's on her to veto it.  

I do think she did get way more hate than warranted, half from neckbeards mad that a wimminfolk was in charge of their rasslin and half from people mad at anyone named McMahon. Kind of like how every time WWE has a good show now it's because of Hunter and when it sucks its because of Vince.

[Alucard]

On 12/4/2019 at 5:56 AM, DMJ said:

basically just praising John Cena every week (Did he coin the phrase "Big Match John"?).

I believe that was JBL

[Mad Dog]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

She was still in charge of creative, if someone suggests a shit idea it's on her to veto it.  

I do think she did get way more hate than warranted, half from neckbeards mad that a wimminfolk was in charge of their rasslin and half from people mad at anyone named McMahon. Kind of like how every time WWE has a good show now it's because of Hunter and when it sucks its because of Vince.

I can kind of see why though. She came in on the heels of the best writing WWE ever saw and you could see the immediate decline in quality.