Loss Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 I think it's difficult to push guys under 25 in a non-territory system because they are usually stale long before they turn 30, even if they have more good years in the ring. They end up needing a change in scenery to stay fresh at that point. On the flip side, if you go too slow, you teach fans not to see the young guys at that level before pulling the trigger. It's a really tough thing to do now I think, especially when a good WWE run used to last 3-4 years and now a good WWE run lasts 10-12 years or more. Thinking about Orton and his age correlating to his push, he turned 30 in 2010 and still had some years on top ahead of him, but it seemed even by then that his best years were behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 That is true and that's the curse of the monopoly. If people going back and forth between WWE and AEW becomes normalised, I think that'll be a good thing. I can't imagine Vince accepting that however. Some sort of off-season and a distinct identity between their brands would have done a lot for someone like Orton. If you only see him for 8 months of the year and him switching to a different show would have major implications for how he would be presented, that would have kept him fresh for longer. As well as smaller things like changing up his gear and his music every few years. And his signature spots. I think there's probably still a way for them to bring in people like a Nakamura or a Matt Riddle and shoot them to the top instead of wasting time in NXT, which has become as much of a curse as it was a blessing. That would give the main roster a bit more buzz without necessarily having to push 20 year olds who are green. But yeah, more male sex symbols who are acknowledged as such would help for sure. I remember a good few months back Dave suggesting that they should operate their multitude of brands like a super fluid territory system where Undisputed Era could go up to Raw to work a three month storyline and then go back to NXT once it's blown off etc. That would be quite interesting but it would take more organisational skills and attention to detail than they're capable of. Honestly, WWE is broken on such a fundamental level that all of these things are just triage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy LaRue Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 The Shield had/has a large female fanbase. To the point FMKK made, they were on the main roster at 26/27 years old. Fans got to grow up with them, if that makes sense. Age is going to be an issue for WWE. Many of the big names in NXT are in the same age group as Reigns and Rollins, who have been on the main roster for nearly eight years. The current NXT stars may only get a couple of years of mainstream time before their clock runs out. If they make it to RAW or SD at all. WWE does have younger talent, as Kawada mentioned. Austin Theory is 22. Humberto Carillo is 24. Angel Garza is 27. Otis is 28. Liv Morgan will be 26 soon. Even Sasha Banks is only 28. They're on the main roster already. That's not counting anyone in NXT/NXT UK. Wrestling in general has an age problem. I think the median age across the board is 47 or 48. No new fans are coming in anywhere. WWE is certainly facing that issue, but so is everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 10 hours ago, C.S. said: Elvis being racist was thoroughly debunked though. Chuck D passing along urban legends as facts doesn't make it so. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shine-my-shoes/ For the record, Chuck D has publicly walked this back. I think it was on Talib Kweli's podcast. Great interview! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Wolfe Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Ultimately the booking and personalities are what makes and breaks a promotion, though. For all the talk about younger stars and a territory system (both great ideas that they would be fools not to implement), its the people running the promotion that are out of touch. The booking/writing/production are so poor half the time it doesn't matter who they put in front of the camera. Without real change they are doomed because the product is so shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Dale Wolfe said: Ultimately the booking and personalities are what makes and breaks a promotion, though. For all the talk about younger stars and a territory system (both great ideas that they would be fools not to implement), its the people running the promotion that are out of touch. Yeah, completely. Just to get an idea, watch the media interviews from Double or Nothing Post Match. Just watch Tony Khan and think this 37 years old guy is running the show along with CODY, Omega, the Bucks, basically. Young and forward thinking, not in the bubble. WWE is run by a 74 year old guy (twice the age of Khan) who has been stuck in the bubble all his life, surrounded by yes-men like Brucie. Heyman supposedly is the one trying to push younger talent. Think for one minute if he wasn't even there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 There are so many good wrestlers in WWE. I was just given an NXT match from 5 years ago on the Secret Santo thread over n DVDVR and the in ring stuff was absolutely first rate. The actual wrestling and the wrestlers were certainly not the problem. But I could not fully get into the match. All of the stuff around the match kept pulling me out. The unnecessarily frenetic and hyperkinetic camera work. Just let me watch the match! The commentary. When they were reacting to the stuff that was happening in the ring they were very good. But, there were so many points where they were obviously reciting prefabricated talking points with zero sincerity or enthusiasm. It was sometimes painful to listen to. The backstory to the match. They used to be friends! Then one of them turned heel on the other! This is personal! The fans. Can nobody cheer for the face and boo the heel? Chants can be okay in the right context, but can't we time them to match what's going on in the ring. Like, maybe, save "This is awe-some" for after an awesome thing has occurred? And so on. It was Sasha vs Becky. Tremendous heel performance from Sasha but the crowd barely reacted to it. The crowd wanted to get their shit in. All of that stuff kept pulling me out of it, and I truly wanted to just get into it and enjoy it. Then whenever I try to watch or even read about the current product there is just so much going on that keeps me from getting back into WWE. Never mind the F you booking. I'm talking about insane creative bankruptcy like having an interview followed by another interview followed by a run in to set up a main event tag week after week after week.having "the challenger has pinned the champion!!" happen again and again and again and again. It's obviously not the wrestlers that are the problem. The roster is stacked with talent. But it's like WWE is a big machine doing everything in their power to keep me and countless other pro wrestling fans from being able to just enjoy watching all those great wrestlers wrestle. But, they are still the biggest wrestling company in the world. I sincerely don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 18 hours ago, El-P said: Wow. This is SO embarrassing for the company. And Lacey fucking Evans of all people ? And really, when you watch Double or Nothing and you see guys like MJH (only 24), Jungle Boy (only 24) and Sammy Guevarra (only 26) absolutely killing it and shining all the way and look at what WWE has been doing with Ricochet (31) for instance, who a few years ago looked like he was a can't miss prospect. Honestly, apart from being a WWE-only fan, I have no idea why anyone would want to sign with that company when there's a 95% chance of them fucking you up. Lacey was just playing up to the cameras and playing off her background as a drill sergeant. But it does come across as terrible and backward. Being West Coast-based likely saved Jungle Boy and Sammy from being signed and coming under their umbrella. EVOLVE would be unlikely to fly either in. Sammy had a really bad rep, especially on the Texas indie scene for his immaturity and that would have stood against him. While MJF was courted he was told to wrestle two more years on the indies. And about a year into that AEW reached out. In general Triple H and William Regal are against boy-ish young men. Cole and Gargano go turned down initially for that reason. Hence in part, you have a bunch of mid-30-year-old men with beards on the main roster, NXT and NXT UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, rovert said: In general Triple H and William Regal are against boy-ish young men. Cole and Gargano go turned down initially for that reason. Hence in part, you have a bunch of mid-30-year-old men with beards on the main roster, NXT and NXT UK. Beards is the mid to late 2010's equivalent to the 00's crew cuts and awful tribal tatoos. I wonder what the next trend will be. I hope it's not gonna be neck tatoos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Tbf if that becomes a trend I will squarely blame Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 I remember someone posted a picture of a NXT UK six-man tag and I was floored about how both teams were exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 HHH should really make beard vs beard matches the signature blow off gimmick for shows in his orbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 22 minutes ago, FMKK said: HHH should really make beard vs beard matches the signature blow off gimmick for shows in his orbit. Genius ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Drew McIntyre, Seth Rollins, Ali, and Elias are all basically palette swaps of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawadaSmile Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 I'd take Ali off that list, but the other three are basically a Pokemon evolutionary line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 I missed the boat by putting my reply in the RAW thread from last week instead of this thread. D'oh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 5 hours ago, FMKK said: HHH should really make beard vs beard matches the signature blow off gimmick for shows in his orbit. Vince Russo would book a wig on a pole match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 30, 2020 Report Share Posted May 30, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 5:27 PM, Loss said: There will always be wrestlers for whom it's the right decision to go to WWE, depending on what they are seeking, much like in the 90s, when it made sense for some to go to WCW and for others to go to the WWF. The difference is that WWE used to be the best place to go if you were young and willing to work a busy schedule, because you'd easily exceed your downside guarantee and usually get a real shot at stardom. Now, I think it makes more sense for people like Styles and Nakamura who have put in so much time without ever making big money to sign as their bodies are breaking down. That used to be the type of wrestler better off in WCW. I think WWE has become the place you go when you are tired of the hustle and want to make some easy money for a retirement tour. I always said before AEW happened was you would only see the Bucks sign is if their t shirt money started to dry up and they were nearing retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 30, 2020 Report Share Posted May 30, 2020 WWE has become TNA. In more ways than one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 30, 2020 Report Share Posted May 30, 2020 18 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said: WWE has become TNA. In more ways than one. Old out of touch owner holding on to stars of the past past their expiration date? Sounds more like the AWA to me honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 I always thought Vince seriously overlearned the lesson of putting Hogan and Savage out to pasture when they turned 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 8 hours ago, Loss said: I always thought Vince seriously overlearned the lesson of putting Hogan and Savage out to pasture when they turned 40. It's funny to think that Edge is older then both Hogan and Savage when WWF was taking shots at WCW for having old guys on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 9 hours ago, Rocco said: It's funny to think that Edge is older then both Hogan and Savage when WWF was taking shots at WCW for having old guys on top. In general the internet shitting on WCW in 98-99 for having old wrestlers and now WWE has surpassed them on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Shows were built around Hogan in a way that isn’t at all the case with the part timers. It doesn’t mean there aren’t issues but it’s not apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 31, 2020 Report Share Posted May 31, 2020 52 minutes ago, Matt D said: I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Shows were built around Hogan in a way that isn’t at all the case with the part timers. It doesn’t mean there aren’t issues but it’s not apples to apples. Honestly I'm fairly certain the only reason they don't do that is either it's too expensive to keep them around full time like Brock or the old guys they would want to do that with can't physically do a full time schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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