Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

3 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

AEW would love having someone like Baron Corbin 

Nope. And neither does its audience. 

4 hours ago, joeg said:

@El-P Adam Cole absolutely passes the airport test, the guy looks like movie star and oozes cool.

Totally agree but :

"He's too short !" Vince.

And I'm pretty sure IRL the guys just looks pretty normal. I always thought of the "airport test" as basically being big and tall.

4 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

Danielson knows he is a big loss because WWE treated him like a very important asset since he had to retire. Going with that rumor makes no sense whatsoever if you think about his position in the company for the last 4 years.

I know, and of course it's ridiculous, but that isn't less insulting to hear.

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

AEW would and absolutely should go after Keith Lee and Chad Gable if they were ever made available.

Yep. No brainer, both of them.

[C.S.]

Corbin is a guy who would probably be better off going to Impact, but if AEW can hire and justify Jake Hager with a straight face, Corbin is a demonstrable upgrade.

[El-P]

18 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Corbin is a guy who would probably be better off going to Impact

NOOOOO !!!!!! Leave my beloved promotions alone people ! Don't fantasy book your shitty WWE guys in it ! I already have to deal with completely shitty W. Morrissey matches ! 

18 minutes ago, C.S. said:

if AEW can hire and justify Jake Hager with a straight face, Corbin is a demonstrable upgrade.

Hager > Corbin. Faint praise, I know. Corbin is the ultimate WWE-lite go-away heat guy. Plus Hager did not come straight from WWE when he was hired, he had been in LU and MLW before. 

[sek69]

Honestly Corbin seems like a guy that WWE is the best place for him.  I don't see him as the type that would want to work anywhere else either. 

[Coffey]

WWE weren't exactly booking Jon Moxley well during the end of his run there... and he turned out fine in AEW. At least he's not coming out in a hazmat suit, anyway... I think fans are a lot more forgiving nowadays. It's not about how WWE uses you on TV, it's more about how they fuck people over & fans like seeing them get a clean slate.

Ruby Soho's debut just happened & was cool as hell. Fans were chanting her name. She was a jobber in WWE. 

If AEW could get a Gable, or Cesaro, or Keith Lee.. the fans would welcome them with open arms, no questions asked. 

[Rah]

Throwing some more coal into the gossip train:

[Blehschmidt]

The guys I mentioned were Tozawa, Cedric, Gulak, Mustafa Ali, and Ricochet.

Gulak has enough friends in the company that I think he would be hired. He is a very skilled wrestler, and I think he could make a nice mid card hand for them. Not calling for him to be a main eventer or anything.

Tozawa is the exact same as Gulak, though I think he has a higher window. The dude is charismatic as hell and talented as fuck. If you don't treat him like a joke, and let him do what he can do, the fans will come around. Just don't try and start him at the top. Let him win the fans over by not doing stupid shit.

As for Ricochet, Mustafa Ali, and Cedric Alexander... I think they would all get the "Man these guys were so held down in WWE, look at them excel here in AEW" pass. Again, I'm not saying any of them are on the level of Punk or Danielson, but I think they are all potential and reasonable pick ups for the company.

 

I was also pushing for Keith Lee, and I don't care what WWE has done to him. You let Keith Lee come in and be Keith Lee to the full extent of his talent, and you have another main eventer on your hands. But the dudes clock is ticking at his age and size.

 

[strobogo]

Pretty Wonderful was a great team, Roma was very miscast as a Horseman but really thrived as a dickhead pretty boy heel mid card tag guy.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Coffey said:

WWE weren't exactly booking Jon Moxley well during the end of his run there... and he turned out fine in AEW.

There's a huge difference though. Mox was a cult favorite from the indies before he join WWE. And he was part of the hottest act in the company in the early 10's. Baron Corbin was a boring goon from day 1 in NXT and has always been a boring dull-ass uncharismatic worker who had go-away heat for the longest time.

1 hour ago, Blehschmidt said:

The guys I mentioned were Tozawa, Cedric, Gulak, Mustafa Ali, and Ricochet.

All of these guys would fit in AEW probably, but I do agree a stint in IMPACT or ROH to recharge their batteries and clean off the bad taste would help, especially for a guy like Tozawa. Ricochet had so much hype before he join WWE that he could show up in AEW tomorrow and be shot right up into the TNT title scene though. He legit looked like a can't-miss in LU (although he was upstaged there by Fénix already) and of course, well...

Is Gran Metalik still employed ? Talk about a guy who's career has been killed dead by joined the E. Mascara Dorada was so awesome...

1 hour ago, Rah said:

Throwing some more coal into the gossip train:

Both Kevin Steen & El Generico in AEW would rule so hard.

[Stiva]

Gable having a killer indie/Japan run and then landing hot in AEW for a hot run of Dynamite matches seems like it would be the ideal scenario for him.

Could see Gulak getting in as a midcard guy who wins on Elevation while he does stints at QTs school

[Blehschmidt]

An ideal scenario for Gulak would be if folks like Walter, Thatcher, Oney, and Burch were to leave and they formed some kind of grappley, Ring Kampf'esque stable where he could be part of a tag team or a heater for the stable leader.

[KawadaSmile]

Corbin's major problem was overexposure. I remember that period on Raw which it was him, Drew and Lashley just beating the faces every week, the same way. It was pretty dull.

He proved to be very fucking good in the ring during the KotR tournament and subsequent feud with Gable, and he is always 100% committed to whatever gimmick he's given. Happy Corbin is great.

Besides, having someone to represent the antithesis to your product is far from something bad. RVD throwing himself at Vince on ECW was very fucking good.

[El-P]

51 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

Besides, having someone to represent the antithesis to your product is far from something bad. 

If it's in character, no indeed, because the dynamic is fun. Like Foley turning anti-hardcore in ECW.
If it's in actuality, yes, it's terrible and should never be done. It's not "legit heat", it's go-the-fuck-away heat.

[KawadaSmile]

2 minutes ago, El-P said:

If it's in character, no indeed, because the dynamic is fun. Like Foley turning anti-hardcore in ECW.
If it's in actuality, yes, it's terrible and should never be done. It's not "legit heat", it's go-the-fuck-away heat.

But there's the thing - Corbin was, even in WWE, in-character, the incorporation of what people don't want. He was literally called the reason the product was stale at one point (not sure by whom, maybe Angle? Possibly more than one person), which is... stupid, but it's clearly pointing at the character, and not Corbin himself.

The catch is that all of the problems in his presentation are in fact faults of overexposure. He can absolutely pull an RVD or Foley and have an engaging character. He clearly can speak well and is unphased by a crowd shitting on him. He can have a great match. However, if you just have him beatdown all the babyfaces week in and week out, he's gonna annoy people. Drew, who is really fucking over now, was getting the same type of reaction as Corbin. He basically had to force a face turn calling himself handsome (which he is) and wrestling in a more appealing style. 

His feud with Seth generated good, legit heat! The problem is that it went for tooooo fucking long. Same with his feud  with Reigns.

One thing AEW knocks out of the park more than anything is that they give things time to breathe. They give things space. You don't need to see everyone in action every week. Just by virtue of that, you get all the positives from Corbin and remove all the negatives.

[El-P]

45 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

But there's the thing - Corbin was, even in WWE, in-character, the incorporation of what people don't want. He was literally called the reason the product was stale at one point (not sure by whom, maybe Angle? Possibly more than one person), which is... stupid, but it's clearly pointing at the character, and not Corbin himself.

It was Corbin himself. He was uninteresting both as a character and as a worker. Pushing him was yet another tone deaf decision by WWE booking, because no one was giving a shit. I know he got some love for improving in the ring, but the last time I checked, he was still a dull, boring worker with no charisma. Now if you add the overexposure because he's been doing it for years and years, it makes things even worse, but no one is gonna convince me that Baron Corbin was ever a good worker or an interesting character in any way shape or form. To me he's this generation's Randy Orton, only lesser in every aspect. No one wants to see a guy like this in AEW.

45 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

One thing AEW knocks out of the park more than anything is that they give things time to breathe. They give things space. You don't need to see everyone in action every week. Just by virtue of that, you get all the positives from Corbin and remove all the negatives.

I honestly fail to see what he is bringing to the table. He's not a good promo, he's not charismatic, he's average and dull in the ring. AEW has already way too much talent. It's neither here nor there since Corbin is probably a lifer, although I guess Bray Wyatt was supposed to be also, so... (but for all his faults, and although I don't need him in AEW *at all*, I at least can see the appeal).

[KawadaSmile]

It seems awfully convenient to put all the blame of a stale product - your own product, even! - on a single wrestler. They didn't take a hint for nearly HALF A YEAR that heel beatdowns every week was weak booking and the blame is on a single wrestler? Come on bubba. And the issue is not that you, El-P, don't like him, or think he is the one to blame. The issue is that WWE, through whoever had the mic, went out of their way to put the blame on a single wrestler. It's just counterproductive as fuck.

Compare that to the writing on SD now. Corbin has an actual story, he still is a smarmy fuck, but is in a context that is very entertaining. Happy Corbin is WIDELY more accepted than whatever came before. It's as if the quality of the booking matters.

[MoS]

He is fine as a goofy midcard heel. It's when he is endlessly programmed against someone like Roman that he becomes unbearable.

[KawadaSmile]

1 minute ago, MoS said:

He is fine as a goofy midcard heel. It's when he is endlessly programmed against someone like Roman that he becomes unbearable.

I think even as an occasional challenger to the top title he ain't the worst option. Some of his matches against Roman were certified bangers.

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

It seems awfully convenient to put all the blame of a stale product - your own product, even! - on a single wrestler.

Who talks about blaming a stale product on a single wrestler ? What ? I'm strictly talking about Baron Corbin as a worker. He's average in every sense of the word,that's pretty much it. He doesn't bring jackshit to the table in term of what a hardcore, state-of-the-art working promotion like AEW asks. Hell, he's boring and dull *for WWE's style*. It's not like there aren't great workers and great matches happening in WWE, and I'm speaking only main roster.

 

[KawadaSmile]

2 minutes ago, El-P said:

Who talks about blaming a stale product on a single wrestler ? What ? I'm strictly talking about Baron Corbin as a worker. He's average in every sense of the word,that's pretty much it. He doesn't bring jackshit to the table in term of what a hardcore, state-of-the-art working promotion like AEW asks. Hell, he's boring and dull *for WWE's style*. It's not like there aren't great workers and great matches happening in WWE, and I'm speaking only main roster.

Bubba, you quoted me on a post where I mentioned that.

Here:

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

But there's the thing - Corbin was, even in WWE, in-character, the incorporation of what people don't want. He was literally called the reason the product was stale at one point (not sure by whom, maybe Angle? Possibly more than one person), which is... stupid, but it's clearly pointing at the character, and not Corbin himself.

And that's where our opinions mostly disagree. Much of the heavy criticism he got online at the height of his unpopularity stemmed from him being singled out as the reason the product sucked ass. He's at worst just an average in-ring dude who can talk very well and is 100% into whatever storyline he's given. An older MJF, if you will.

[Blehschmidt]

If Corbin showed up in AEW, It would damage the good will the fans have toward the promotion. So far they have avoided doing that, and the people trust them to make the right decision. If they bring in a Bray Wyatt, who the fans generally like, and it doesn't work, that good will may give them a pass. But you bring in a Corbin or Jinder Mahal, or someone with Go Away heat, and they are going to lose that good will.

 

You may like Corbin, and he may not be as bad as everyone makes him out to be. But Corbin in AEW absolutely wouldn't work. Unless he went and performed miracles in New Japan first or something.

[El-P]

You brought up the thing about him being blame for the product being stale, not me. I just pointed at that Corbin *is* a dull, boring worker. Corbin himself, not "the character Corbin". I really don't remember nor care what was the talk back then. Then again, if WWE booked a dull and boring guy on purpose thinking it would be "legit heat", then it's really stupid. It worked with Foley in ECW because 1/ Foley was a cult hero to begin with and 2/ there was a meta aspect to it. And really now, I've seen some of King Corbin's stuff, he was just as dull and boring to me.

10 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

He's at worst just an average in-ring dude who can talk very well and is 100% into whatever storyline he's given. An older MJF, if you will.

You're out to lunch on that one. MJF is an all-time great promo and already a super solid worker, as showed by his match with Jungle Boy a few months ago which was terrific.

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

If Corbin showed up in AEW, It would damage the good will the fans have toward the promotion. So far they have avoided doing that, and the people trust them to make the right decision. If they bring in a Bray Wyatt, who the fans generally like, and it doesn't work, that good will may give them a pass. But you bring in a Corbin or Jinder Mahal, or someone with Go Away heat, and they are going to lose that good will.

This. And yeah, Jinder was actually another guy I was thinking about when talking about Corbin. 

Hell, Christian Cage's announcement hurt AEW's trust at that very moment, because it had been oversold. And as showed by the lack of heat at All Out, it's obvious that despite the obvious tremendous respect and love the fans have for him, they don't see him at Omega's level. And that's a guy who had the great rep and two "big fish in small ponds" stint in TNA and WWECW, which differs from just being a plain WWE guy. Gotta read the room.

[KawadaSmile]

1 minute ago, El-P said:

You brought up the thing about him being blame for the product being stale, not me[1]. I just pointed at that Corbin *is* a dull, boring worker. Corbin himself, not "the character Corbin". I really don't remember nor care what was the talk back then. Then again, if WWE booked a dull and boring guy on purpose thinking it would be "legit heat", then it's really stupid[2]. 

[1] Yes, bubba, I know. When later I mentioned how convenient it was to single out a wrestler and said "you" and "your", it was referring to the Fed.

[2] Yes, it is stupid. And it's what they've done.

 

MJF does nothing for me, man. I'm not gonna say he sucks ass, which he doesn't, and he is a very good heel and very good talker - which means he can easily do the most important thing in pro wrestling, make people spend money to see the show. He's very young too, which means he can improve on any given area he's lacking (he's sometimes too much of a tryhard, and sometimes he's lacking in the ring - even JR pointed out on commentary that he "seemed lost" at All Out). He does have a very high ceiling. He just ain't for me. 

[KawadaSmile]

13 minutes ago, El-P said:

Hell, Christian Cage's announcement hurt AEW's trust at that very moment, because it had been oversold. And as showed by the lack of heat at All Out, it's obvious that despite the obvious tremendous respect and love the fans have for him, they don't see him at Omega's level. And that's a guy who had the great rep and two "big fish in small ponds" stint in TNA and WWECW, which differs from just being a plain WWE guy. Gotta read the room.

I thought that was more because he was seen, at that moment, as a TNA guy rather than an AEW guy. He was the "foreigner".