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WWE TV 05/18 - 05/24 The Last Dance was fucking incredible

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Random trivia: Dennis Rodman had 26 offensive rebounds in the '96 playoff series against the Orlando Magic. 

The entire Orlando squad had 39.

 

I believe Rodman's own documentary sheds some light on what happened during his years with the Bulls. They understood him better than the others. Zen Master Jackson is the man.

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Was Rodman a legit fan?  I can remember in 97 when he called WCW the "WWF" in some interviews he did. With Hogan sitting right next to him

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1 hour ago, Badlittlekitten said:

Axe throwing contests >>>>> basketball.

 

32 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Both are better than 2020 WWE.

 

Have you guys tried Marble Racing? 

Jelle's Marble Runs

This shit is the future of sports

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14 hours ago, DMJ said:

That's not "flashes of brilliance." 

But back to the topic at hand: Dennis Rodman. MJ put up with his shit because MJ cared about winning and having a guy that could get in the opposing team's head and contribute 15 rebounds a game consistently helped them set regular season win records, which meant home court advantage in the Playoffs, which helped them win Championships. If that guy had been Anthony Mason or Dale Davis, he would've wanted them on his team, but getting the best meant you had to put up with his shit, and Rodman was the best.

You didn't read what I said.  I said "flashes of his incredible hustle".  I never said anything about his rebounding being "flashes".  The dude's hustle and general agility was what got him attention in the first place while in Detroit.  The dude was like a spark plug and a sign of life on a team that was frankly slowing down because Rick Mahorn is a slow down thumper and Laimbeer and Mahorn in the middle leads to good returns but everyone else was going to adapt.  That's what made Rodman's coming out party so good.  The dude was lightning quick and knew how to rile up a home crowd better than anyone past or present in the history of the NBA.  The dude was skilled at rebounding, the absolute best for a long period of time, nowhere in my post did I say that his rebounding skills were over-exaggerated.  sek had said that people were in awe of his presence, THAT'S what I was saying has been over-exaggerated with the benefit of historical hindsight.

But I had some other things I wanted to talk about in your post that I'll get out of the way too:

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The Spurs not getting to the Finals had much more to do with the competition in the West in the 90s. They were competing against some very, very good Rockets, Jazz, Suns, and Sonics teams.

The Spurs were odds-on favorites in the West 1995, with an exception being the Suns.  The Spurs pretty famously shat the bed in the Western Conference Finals after David Robinson disappeared during the middle of the series (Avery Johnson earned the entire team's respect for holding a team meeting and chewing out Robinson for dropping the ball.  That kinda became The Admiral's problem for most of his career)  The Rockets were nowhere near as good in 1995 and were kind of just wavering until the Drexler trade turned them around, and even then he didn't help them as much as they were expecting.  They essentially captured lightning in a bottle by taking down a vulnerable and already Over It Suns team and a Spurs team that featured a missing Admiral and tons of in-fighting between coach Bob Hill and Rodman.

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The Mailman

The only person on your list that I believe had any sort of a chance against those 98-98 Bulls, with his problem being he struggled to deliver late in the game more than not.  I know the Pippen "I guess the Mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays" story is cute, but it's also true to his actual reputation at the time!!  He was considered a guy who couldn't get it done.  The Lex Luger of the NBA?  Or would that be Elgin Baylor. :D

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Sir Charles

He had his only chance in 1993.  He's mentioned in recent times on one of the TNT Inside the NBA shows that when he lost the title in 1993, he knew privately it was never going to happen again.  By 1995 his body was beyond done and the dude was playing basketball in almost constant pain with a backing crew that was the same as they were in 1993, that being older and with more confidence than any reason to show it.  They could've had the chance if Kevin Johnson could stay healthy but that was never going to happen. :(  Ran out of gas to two Rocket teams.  In 1994 that Rockets team was real good, in 1995 they were more an angry Rockets team and if the Suns could've kept their cool (they had a 3-1 lead in that series) they could've taken that series.

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Kemp/Payton

Shawn Kemp was an athletic freak of nature and Gary Payton was the best defensive guard we had seen since Dennis Johnson.  However, both their maturity levels (which they thankfully have admitted now) were nowhere near the level they needed to be to lead a team and win a title.  Maybe the least surprising thing about the '96 Finals is Chicago taking a 3-0 lead.

I will argue that Jordan's Western Conference competition for the first three titles was far more competitive than the last three.  In the early 90s in the West you had a Blazers team that just needed to learn to keep its composure (picture an entire team of James Harden-level complainers and you have those Blazers) if they wanted to win, a Suns team that even pre-Barkley was super scary to deal with, an even younger and more athletic Jazz team with a strong 1-2 scoring punch in Jeff and Karl Malone, and a Spurs team that had Rod Strickland before he burnt out.

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As I noted, my Cavs were a consistent playoff team in the 90s for awhile, but look at our roster. We weren't threat to anybody.

Ya'll got hosed, especially after losing Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance.  The 1992 Cavs were a pretty damn good threat and the peak of that squad.  The 1992 Bulls were scary good and you got six games out of them!!

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I believe Rodman's own documentary sheds some light on what happened during his years with the Bulls. They understood him better than the others. Zen Master Jackson is the man.

Phil rules because he figured out what Chuck Daly and John Lucas figured out (Just Leave Rodman Alone and he'll do almost anything to win for you) but he also was smart enough to keep an eye on him without making it seem like he was keeping an eye on him.  Phil's psychology is dearly missed in this league today, even in his later Lakers year when he was clearly burning out on egos he was still one of the smartest guys in the league.  No one was going to get more out of Rodman than Phil.  He even convinced Rodman he could come off the bench when he needed to!!

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^ I definitely misinterpreted your comment about Rodman.

Every point/counterpoint you gave made total sense to me and I even learned a bit as I wasn't as aware of all the minutae in some of those series and years, especially in the western conference.

 

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20 hours ago, Strummer said:

Was Rodman a legit fan?  I can remember in 97 when he called WCW the "WWF" in some interviews he did. With Hogan sitting right next to him

And “Luthor” instead of “Luger”

Though part of me wants to give a “no prize” to Rodman trying to equate his buddy Hogan as wrestling’s version of Superman, so any “Lex” would get a “Luthor,” especially with a similar sounding last name like “Luger.” ;) 

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46 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Ember Moon suffering a possible career-ending injury in a 24/7 backstage segment is peak WWE.

Only middling WCW though.

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Meltzer in his Raw review put over Edge as being brilliant at mentally constructing matches, which makes no sense to me, because Edge's best matches were ones where he had a lot of props and shortcuts to make the match look good. The Edge-Orton WM match, in fact, showed Edge's mental limitations imo, because he clearly drastically miscalculated what would make a good match in the circumstances . 

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19 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:
Ember Moon suffering a possible career-ending injury in a 24/7 backstage segment is peak WWE.

I though she was part of the mass firing ?

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51 minutes ago, MoS said:

Meltzer in his Raw review put over Edge as being brilliant at mentally constructing matches, which makes no sense to me, because Edge's best matches were ones where he had a lot of props and shortcuts to make the match look good. The Edge-Orton WM match, in fact, showed Edge's mental limitations imo, because he clearly drastically miscalculated what would make a good match in the circumstances . 

Christian, on the other hand, really, really got it. He's one of the best ever at taking a bunch of signature spots and moving them around from match to match.

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2 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Christian, on the other hand, really, really got it. He's one of the best ever at taking a bunch of signature spots and moving them around from match to match.

Yeah I love Christian. Also, it's funny cuz one of the things that came to my mind when I heard Meltzer say this was "Boy is he mocking Matt D's mental smarts judging criterion with this."

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29 minutes ago, MoS said:

Yeah I love Christian. Also, it's funny cuz one of the things that came to my mind when I heard Meltzer say this was "Boy is he mocking Matt D's mental smarts judging criterion with this."

It all matters a lot less now than it did ten years ago because the world is larger and more scattered but yeah, Meltzer's Edge affection has always been baffling.

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The conversation is happening in two different ways, I think. Dave would defend Edge above Christian by saying his matches were more heated.

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On that point I will defend Edge a bit. (And I guess Dave) From like 2000-2004 when he was a midcarder/upper midcarder at best his matches tended to have a lot heat which wasn't exactly common for midcarders in his position in the company at the time.

and I guess a hot take? At times in 2005/2006 he was more over than his push. Without a doubt Lita helped a ton but people forget how red hot he was at that time and wwe decided to cool him off a bit before pushing him back up again

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Edge started really getting over with me in 04 when they brought him back on RAW and his big face return flopped and they did a really good job gradually turning him heel.  I was still watching pretty religiously back then so I remember the gradual shift and progression.  Benoit was a huge part of it, it started with them teaming and Edge going tweener.  I believe Edge himself has spoken on that and said it was kind of an on the fly change because he wasn't getting over as a face, and it totally worked and transitioned into the Foley thing, Lita, Rated R etc....but it all started with that failed face comeback that thankfully they adjusted to

Before that he was really getting over on SD as a babyface, which is why they brought him back on RAW as one, it just didn't click

I've always been a bigger Christian fan though.  Always better on the mic, always the better worker (IMO), really shined when given a chance to work singles.  Shit, I know his TNA run is largely forgotten, but go back and watch a lot of that stuff, he was frickin great and other than AJ Styles got the best matches out of Abyss and Sting during that time period. 

The biggest difference is, as much as I love Christian, Edge had an intangible "TOP GUY" to him that Christian didn't.  Christian could be one of the guys in the top mix, a top guy in his own right, and could have been booked so much better over the years in WWE than he actually was.....Edge had the booking and big matches, but he also delivered in those spots, and he could have been a big star in ECW, WCW, NJPW......same with Christian, but ya know

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Edge to me got worse with the years. Maybe it's because someone told him his nauseatingly bad facial expressions - and that nonsense he would do with pulling his hair and shit when he was trying to show he was "going crazy" or whatever - comprised great acting. He was fun as a midcard heel, and he had a genuinely great character in 2006, reaching his peak with the Cena TLC match. After that, there is some stuff here and there that I like, but mostly it's underwhelming matches and bad angles. That 2010 Kane feud was all-time bad. 

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I always assumed, based on his goofy in ring facials and hammy, over-the-top heel work that Edge had no dramatic ability, that he just couldn’t convey emotion realistically. I was shocked when he showed up on Vikings (one of my favourite shows) and he did a great job. I guess he reserves the over-acting for wrestling?

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Most of Edge's most notable matches were multi-man gimmick matches with a lot of moving parts. I'm sure it takes a certain kind of ring generalship to put those matches together and keep them from falling apart. Straight wrestling matches are another matter.

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In term of in depth analysis of both their respective traits and why their career went the way it went, it comes down basically to this :

_Christian was a great worker

_Edge was tall

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3 hours ago, El-P said:

In term of in depth analysis of both their respective traits and why their career went the way it went, it comes down basically to this :

_Christian was a great worker

_Edge was tall

for Christian you forgot "who wouldn't cut his hair" =P

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