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KawadaSmile

Is Charlotte Flair the most overpushed WWE wrestler of the century?

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1 hour ago, Stiva said:

FWIW, I can't remember seeing much resentment toward Charlotte until she got wedged into the Becky/Ronda program. That was a HHH-esque move if there ever was one.

To be fair, all the backstage stuff around that seemed less about her politicking and more about Vince wanting to "make" an extra star out of the first women's Wrestlemania main event. Didn't agree with the logic, but there was really heavy reporting on this and no one was saying Charlotte was demanding the slot.

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3 hours ago, Stiva said:

FWIW, I can't remember seeing much resentment toward Charlotte until she got wedged into the Becky/Ronda program. That was a HHH-esque move if there ever was one.

Even though I hated the move at the time, if the original plan was Charlotte vs. Ronda, it does feel sort of unfair to screw her out of that.

Plus, as much as a 1-on-1 match and feud between Becky and Ronda would've been more straightforward and less of a clusterfuck in terms of storytelling, some good did come out of Charlotte's inclusion - she added tons of heat to the match and Becky 2 Belts did feel special. 

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I've heard that Charlotte politicked Shayna out of winning the Rumble and then politicked into beating Rhea. So while the first few years were probably just the front office being high on her, I can buy that she's politicking now.

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Charlotte didn't add 'tons of heat' to that match, she killed it dead. In fact, the only time the crowd made any noise during the match was moment when Becky and Ronda finally came face to face and started trading shots .

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15 minutes ago, Boss Rock said:

I've heard that Charlotte politicked Shayna out of winning the Rumble and then politicked into beating Rhea. So while the first few years were probably just the front office being high on her, I can buy that she's politicking now.

WWE is clearly not all-in on Shayna to begin with though.

As for Rhea, I don't buy for a second that she was ever winning that match.

If Asuka couldn't even beat Charlotte to keep her winning streak, there's no way Rhea from developmental was winning. 

8 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

Charlotte didn't add 'tons of heat' to that match, she killed it dead. In fact, the only time the crowd made any noise during the match was moment when Becky and Ronda finally came face to face and started trading shots .

Having the match at midnight is what killed it dead with the crowd. Can't blame Charlotte for that. The fans were rabidly booing her during the build.

I don't necessarily think she should have been there, but that doesn't mean we ignore the few positives she did bring just to accentuate her negatives.

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She didn't bring any positives. They had lightning in a bottle the night after the rumble when Lynch confronted Rousey. The crowd went batshit. The hottest star in the all of wrestling coming face to face with the monster badass on a year long undefeated streak. THAT was the match. Flair did nothing but dilute it and ultimately cool it off. 

I'm not blaming Charlotte for that at all.

I agree about Shayna. They've punted on her multiple times now. Vince was never gonna get Shayna Baszler.

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2 hours ago, C.S. said:

Even though I hated the move at the time, if the original plan was Charlotte vs. Ronda, it does feel sort of unfair to screw her out of that.

Someone else got more over than her. To me, she just had to suck it up.

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Heel Charlotte has been one of the best acts on the roster since she turned a few years back with the big Sasha feud.  She's pretty cringeworthy as a babyface character and her toeing the line as seems to be the case lately doesn't do it for me either.  But when she's obnoxiously cocky and powerhousing smaller women I think she's a terrific performer.  One can easily argue that she's been part of the best main roster match for Sasha, Bayley, Becky, Rousey, Trish, Asuka and others.  

Perhaps she's been more aggressive in asserting her role/push in recent months, but her name isn't McMahon.  At the end of the day she's a voice and not a decision maker.  Like every other significant booking decision in the company the credit or blame goes right to the top.

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40 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Someone else got more over than her. To me, she just had to suck it up.

You're not wrong.

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Pretty amazing that about a month and a half from now will be Charlotte's, Becky's and .Sasha's five year anniversary on the main roster. Think of all that's went down in that five years. Don't think it's unfair to say Sasha's run has been a bit of a disappointment considering the expectations around her at that time

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The idea behind that was that they'd be able to claim for years to come that two women -- two who were going to be around for a long time -- could be promoted as the first-ever woman to headline Wrestlemania instead of just having one star at that level. The other stuff about Charlotte changing finishes I have never seen reported anywhere except this thread.

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The rumors of Charlotte politicking have only surfaced recently. They seem to be more about making Charlotte look bad, not based on actual happenings.

Charlotte doesn't have to do anything to stop Shayna from moving up the ladder. It's clear someone in the main office isn't keen on Baszler. She'll be 40 soon and isn't WWE's definition of beautiful. The entire attitude around her is short-sighted, because she could be a dominant heel champion for several months, then put over an upstart baby Liv Morgan with some planning. But so far, there's no indication they're doing that.

Charlotte is a mixed bag. She's talented and has good matches. She doesn't miss much time due to injury. She carries herself like a star and represents WWE well in public relations. But of the four pillars they've built the women's division around, she's the least popular. She sells almost no merchandise, which is often used to see if someone should get top billing. Alexa Bliss was a better fit in terms of popularity alongside Sasha, Becky and Bayley.

She can check out of performances when uninterested. She's Orton-esque in that respect, though Charlotte is 'on' a lot more than RKO. She's now in the habit of not selling signature moves for her opponents. Whether she's doing that on her own or it's a creative mandate, it's not doing anyone besides Charlotte any favors.

Putting the NXT's women title back on her would be fine if she was only on NXT for a few months. But they have her going around to all the shows and it's overkill. She's not popular enough for that. Also, it diminishes what could be the purpose of her being champ. Charlotte could help elevate the division. That's not happening. It's not her fault, the booking isn't there. But it's weighing what was NXT's best feature just six months ago.

Charlotte being part of WM 35's main event made sense in WWE wanting to make two stars from working with Ronda. They were pushing the first-ever women's main event narrative, may as well maximize it as much as possible. However, it split attention and neither Becky or Charlotte got to where WWE probably saw them being.

Charlotte's presence in the WM match had meaning until Ronda turned heel. Charlotte wasn't needed after that, but there was nothing else to do with her at that point. They had already compromised the SD women's division for the main event, to give Charlotte another reign and have Becky Two Belts at the end of WM.

It'll be interesting to see where the rest of her career goes. She's 34 and engaged. Don't know if she wants children like Becky. But I don't see Charlotte wrestling full-time five years from now.  So it becomes a question of how fast can they get her to equal her father's championship reigns, then have her put over whoever is in line after that.

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3 hours ago, Loss said:

The idea behind that was that they'd be able to claim for years to come that two women -- two who were going to be around for a long time -- could be promoted as the first-ever woman to headline Wrestlemania instead of just having one star at that level. The other stuff about Charlotte changing finishes I have never seen reported anywhere except this thread.

To me, that was a choice to cool off a potential megastar so they could have two nice little WWE stars instead. Of course, the rot had already set in with the Becky push when it became all about Stephanie McMahon and HHH and then Vince and a worked injury and getting arrested etc. instead of building up to the match that was naturally over with the fans.

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Bayley is what killed Sasha's career. Sasha was on fire in 2016 with the Charlotte series, then Bayley came up and stole all her thunder, won the title, got the WM win, etc. Then when bayley was briefly injured, Sasha shines again in 2017 with the Alexa feud but then it's right back to paired with bayley, always as the sidekick. They finally split them up, Sasha turns heel and has the showstealer with Becky but then no, Bayley turns heel too, gets all the title reigns and Sasha goes right back where she was as not even the brand split could separate them. Their eventual/upcoming feud or whatever will be a huge case of who cares at this point, as they will desperately try to recapture the lightning in a bottle from 2015. 

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sorta mildly agree with what you said, but I also think you're overstating how detrimental the on-again/off-again thing with Bayley has been and how "on fire" Sasha has been since coming to the main roster. Like most everybody, the booking hasn't been helpful to Sasha - but, for her, I'd argue its been particularly messy. 

Her position since the call-up has always reminded me of what Bret said in Wrestling with Shadows about his position in the fall of 97'. I don't recall the exact quote but he basically says, he got all this heat by turning on the fans, but then they moved it all to Shawn (I think this is in reference to how Shawn screwed Taker at SummerSlam 97') and now, with Austin and Taker as the babyfaces, Bret was basically a guy the fans didn't really hate as much as Shawn and could no longer cheer

Banks had been the top heel in NXT and really established her character as the arrogant, cocky "Boss," but upon getting called up, that straightforward character seemed to get forgotten as Charlotte was the clear Alpha, Becky Lynch and Bayley were the underdog babyfaces, and Sasha was...well...she wasn't actually a dominant "Boss" (that was now Flair), was no longer the girl talking down to the fans and getting heat (that would be Alexa Bliss), but was also not somebody everyone would naturally root for like Bayley or even steampunk-era Becky. 

They had her win and lose championships left and right - which did, at the very least, give her some credibility as a capable worker - but it did her no favors in the character department as it just made it seem like she could win or lose any night. It also meant that, because she'd already won multiple championships, each win became less meaningful than the last. Its hard to sell an emotional "boyhood dream" storyline when you reach the mountaintop in your first year on the job. Even recently, when she came back from an extended break, they had her almost instantly in the title picture (which made sense) but lose the actual matches (which made less sense). That has nothing to do with Bayley. Losing to Becky, even in good matches, killed her momentum. Its been like that in almost all her programs.

I'd also add, personally, that I think the lack of focus on who her character really is has resulted in her becoming one of the least consistent promos on the roster. There have been times when she just looks lost out there. I would be too if my gimmick was being "The Boss" but my win/loss record made it clear that I wasn't on the same level of Becky, Charlotte, or Ronda. Nikki Bella was booked stronger than Sasha ever was too. Its kinda hard to get that character over when you're at the same credibility level as Nattie and Carmella. 

So, yeah, I'm a fan of Sasha and think she has a ton of talent, but the WWE's inability to make her the star she should be has very little to do with Bayley.

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Triple H fucking sucks, man. Biggest Flair mark there is, there was, and there ever will be.

https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/triple-h-believes-losing-charlotte-flair-helped-rhea-ripley-s-character?utm_source=TW-FightfulWrestling&utm_medium=Fightful Wrestling News&utm_campaign=dlvr.it.organic

It's easy to justify Rhea losing with "her character's growing" when it's the only way you book faces.

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Hey, Trip helped more people than anyone else ever in his career too. By beating them. So he knows what's up...

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This works if the character actually grows. Hangman Page loses to Chris Jericho, expresses his feelings of inadequacy, distances his himself from his friends, starts giving less of a fuck - that's character growth (or at least evolution). WWE never allows this to happen. Faces lose and they just have to be like "Can't let it get me down, I'll get them next time." That's not growth, it's just a reused cliche.

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Charlotte returns to NXT, beat the top face for the title, beats EVERYONE in her path, and (likely) leaves without putting anyone over.

Such good booking. 

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33 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

Charlotte returns to NXT, beat the top face for the title, beats EVERYONE in her path, and (likely) leaves without putting anyone over.

Such good booking. 

It really helps Rhea's character though...

 

 

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Triple H also had his epic feud with Rock blown off when Rock pinned..... Vince McMahon. It's funny cuz Ric Flair made everyone look great at his own expense, which ultimately really hurt JCP,  and his daughter is firmly on his way to residing firmly on the other end of the spectrum. 

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I assume Rhea finally overcomes and beats Charlotte at Summerslam for the Raw title. Bryan Alvarez has the same idea as me. 

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5 hours ago, rovert said:

I assume Rhea finally overcomes and beats Charlotte at Summerslam for the Raw title. Bryan Alvarez has the same idea as me. 

That's what *should* happen, but at this point I'll believe it when I see it. 

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