NXT TakeOver: WarGames - Two Matches Beyond

[SirEdger]

5 hours ago, C.S. said:

Unique style that stands out, but he can only work his kind of match. With that said, I agree he'd be good as the #3 guy in a stable. I wonder if he was originally pegged for the McAfee group before the infinitely superior Pete Dunne was able to return. 

Lumis vs. Grimes (and I'm not exactly a fan of Grimes, who looks like he belongs in the NWA wrestling Thomas Latimer and Royce Isaacs in front of 25 fans) and Ruff vs. Gargano vs. Priest (so far at least) have been far more interesting to me because they have good character work, story, and stakes.

Good rasslin' alone will never, ever impress me because that's the bare minimum requirement and something I already expect from anyone in WWE or even NXT (TV). In this case, the jury is out on Thatcher, who is great with someone who can wrestle his style or adapt to it, but completely out of his element in any other scenario.

That was supposed to be Ridge Holland but he broke his leg in that freak post-match accident. 

[sek69]

Looks like Candice might have broken her arm on the spot where Shotzi did a swanton off the ladder to her holding a chair. It looked weird when it happened, as if Shotzi kind of forgot when to jump/wasn't sure of the distance and it looked like Candice had to wave to her to hit the move.

[NintendoLogic]

8 hours ago, Migs said:

The MLW one a couple of years ago had the babyface team win the flip, and then some chicanery to flip it back.

Also, ROH won the coin flip in the ROH/CZW Cage of Death, but that was a setup for Danielson turning on Joe in the middle of the match.

[urbanecowboy]

I went to WarGames last year and while it was exciting in the moment, I didn’t leave feeling like I’d seen anything special. That’s how I feel in general about these new WarGames matches. I could watch the first one, ‘91 and ‘92 over and over and still have excitement. But these modern incarnations feel shallow. Even more so than the not-so-good WCw ones. 

[NintendoLogic]

As several have pointed out, War Pigs is an antiwar song, so using it as a WarGames hype song is like thinking Born in the USA is a feelgood patriotic anthem.

[Migs]

21 minutes ago, urbanecowboy said:

I went to WarGames last year and while it was exciting in the moment, I didn’t leave feeling like I’d seen anything special. That’s how I feel in general about these new WarGames matches. I could watch the first one, ‘91 and ‘92 over and over and still have excitement. But these modern incarnations feel shallow. Even more so than the not-so-good WCw ones. 

Doing two in a night is a real downer in that regard. '91 and '92 were the fourth and fifth War Games on tape (since there were two on '87) - they still felt special, and of course in '92 it was a blowoff to an angle well suited to the match. "We do War Games because of the calendar" became an issue for WCW too, and doing two in a night makes it worse.

[Tenese Sarwieh]

55 minutes ago, urbanecowboy said:

I went to WarGames last year and while it was exciting in the moment, I didn’t leave feeling like I’d seen anything special. That’s how I feel in general about these new WarGames matches. I could watch the first one, ‘91 and ‘92 over and over and still have excitement. But these modern incarnations feel shallow. Even more so than the not-so-good WCw ones. 

The women’s WarGames from last year was amazing but I understand your point. WWE doesn’t get what made the essence of WarGames, much like other concepts they didn’t create. 

[cm funk]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

As several have pointed out, War Pigs is an antiwar song, so using it as a WarGames hype song is like thinking Born in the USA is a feelgood patriotic anthem.

Yeah, all you have to do is listen to the lyrics.  I find it hilarious that WWE used it, but not surprising.  Bob Dylan just sold his catalogue, maybe they should have used Masters of War

I don't have much interest in NXT atm and don't plan on watching this show.  As for the NXT War Games matches I remember really liking the triple threat between Undisputed Era, Sanity and Strong/AOP.   IIRC that was the first one and I liked having 3 three man teams as a modern twist.  I remember Ciampa coming back at the last one and doing a stupid move off the top of the cage.  Honestly other than that first one they blend together for me

[urbanecowboy]

1 hour ago, Migs said:

Doing two in a night is a real downer in that regard. '91 and '92 were the fourth and fifth War Games on tape (since there were two on '87) - they still felt special, and of course in '92 it was a blowoff to an angle well suited to the match. "We do War Games because of the calendar" became an issue for WCW too, and doing two in a night makes it worse.

I don’t like the open-roof, I don’t like the possibility of  pinfall decisions, and I don’t like WarGames being a date on a calendar. That’s all it was in WCW most of the time and that’s all it is now. NXT at least WANTS to do them and wants to make them creative (WCW had no real interest in that in the later ones). As with all of nxt, I appreciate that they’re trying to do something, but what they are doing isn’t for me. 

[El-P]

Tony Schiavone has said that he hated the submission or surrender rule, because it always came off anti-climatic and visually lame, and this is something I was so glad to hear because it was always by N°1 criticism with the concept. 

The yearly gimmick PPV has always been a totally dumbfuck idea. I guess since they were doing the Royal Rumble (which is a totally different beast) and to a lesser extent Survivor Series, WWE figured it would work the same way for big dangerous gimmick matches, expect it doesn't for a number of reasons. It has only got worse now that the women have to do the exact same thing as the men, always, because #womenrevolutionthankyouStephanieinnovatoroffeminism, as it waters down the gimmicks even more.

[KawadaSmile]

The NXT fellas have been killing each other lately. 

Thatcher's ear EXPLODED (and he shouldn't have lost), Candice broke her arm, Johnny busted his lip, and Fish had an elbow lasceration. All this to diminishing returns.

The reason Halloween Havoc was a success is that it kept things fresh and fun. Having 45 minute matches in which everyone has to do a reckless dive is not something fresh or fun.

[Mad Dog]

36 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

The NXT fellas have been killing each other lately. 

Thatcher's ear EXPLODED (and he shouldn't have lost), Candice broke her arm, Johnny busted his lip, and Fish had an elbow lasceration. All this to diminishing returns.

The reason Halloween Havoc was a success is that it kept things fresh and fun. Having 45 minute matches in which everyone has to do a reckless dive is not something fresh or fun.

Yep. The main events have just been tiresome for a long time now. There's also a reason they reigned the style in back in 2002. 

[DMJ]

I'd argue that the War Games from 94' - 98' still made more sense storyline-wise than any of the ones we've seen in NXT.

In 94', it was the culmination of the Rhodes Family vs. Stud Stable feud. In 95', as lame as it was, the Dungeon of Doom was a "dominant" heel stable feuding with Hogan and his allies. From 96' through 98', you've got the nWo involved. 

The Women's editions haven't had any storyline reason to exist. Its just your 4 babyfaces vs. your 4 heels. The men's side of things is barely any better. Pat McAfee is feuding with Undisputed Era so he pays to have 3 guys join his side would make more sense if the guys he hired were, y'know, imposing monsters like Authors of Pain or even people known for their brutality and killer instinct. I like Orcan and Burch and Dunne just fine but none of them jump out to me as being "the muscle" one would hire if they unlimited resources.

Also, to me, that main event "exposed" a bit too much. I get that McAfee is a natural athlete, but man, the guy went through a table, took a superplex, and kicked out of a Panama Sunrise in what was historically the most feared, most "dangerous" match ever created. Its a bit like Shane McMahon holding his own in the Hell in the Cell. In a regular match, a non-wrestler should be at a disadvantage and should have to cut corners and cheat to even put up a fight against a trained pro-wrestler. In a cage match, a non-wrestler shouldn't be able to last 2 minutes. 

Its hard to buy into a War Games or Hell in a Cell being this "demonic structure" when the matches come off as something a guy wants to do just to cross it off his bucket list.

[El-P]

6 minutes ago, DMJ said:

I'd argue that the War Games from 94' - 98' still made more sense storyline-wise than any of the ones we've seen in NXT.

In 94', it was the culmination of the Rhodes Family vs. Stud Stable feud. In 95', as lame as it was, the Dungeon of Doom was a "dominant" heel stable feuding with Hogan and his allies. From 96' through 98', you've got the nWo involved. 

Nothing can possibly be as terrible as the 98 edition. Three teams. Stevie Ray. Warrior bullshit. Can't possibly be worse than this.

[Blehschmidt]

War Games 94 was awesome!  93 was pretty terrible, and everything after 94 sucked....but 94 was awesome.

[cm funk]

97 was great.  As a Flair and Horsemen (especially Benoit at the time, sigh) mark it elicited genuine anger from 15-16 yr old me.  It worked to make the "cool heel" nWo loathsome and I couldn't wait to see the comeback....

They didn't follow it up for shit, but I still remember where I was and how I felt watching it, and that's something you can't say for a lot of modern wrestling

[aloniv]

15 hours ago, El-P said:
Tony Schiavone has said that he hated the submission or surrender rule, because it always came off anti-climatic and visually lame, and this is something I was so glad to hear because it was always by N°1 criticism with the concept.

The women's match had a pin in between the rings and Shirai had her feet on the ropes during the pin which should have stopped the count just as it did in the falls count anywhere match on last week's Raw. In fact the wargames match, which is supposed to be the blowoff match, was just used to setup a new challenger for Shirai (the men's match was also the first time Pat's new group faced Undisputed Era, so it was the first match rather than the blowoff).

The submit or surrender rule at least makes sense - two groups of wrestlers hate each other and the only way to win is to render unconscious a member of the opposing team or to make him or her submit. This also makes the match the blowoff of the feud as the winning team conclusively beat the losing team. A pin is a less impressive finish - especially if several wrestler pile up on top of the pinned wrestler (pretty much all the wrestlers would be pinned if two wrestlers would lay on top of them so it's hardly an impressive finish). Also, the older matches were not hardcore weapons matches. If a weapon entered the match, it's because the manager or valet found a way to smuggle it into the cage (e.g. Paul E's phone at Wrestlewar 92 was smuggled into the ring by Madusa).

[DMJ]

11 hours ago, El-P said:

Nothing can possibly be as terrible as the 98 edition. Three teams. Stevie Ray. Warrior bullshit. Can't possibly be worse than this.

For sure. I didn't mean to imply the War Games 98' match was good, just that, from a storyline perspective, it made sense to have that match as the company was still mired in the nWo storyline, which was based on long-running feuds between rival factions. I guess Undisputed Era represent the Four Horsemen/nWo in that they are the perennial heels (or faces?) that people band together to fight, so maybe its just my bias against Adam Cole that makes me not like the modern versions.

[NintendoLogic]

My biggest problem with WarGames is the fact that the match can't end until everyone is inside the cage. The opening minutes when it's one-on-one are fine, but once the ring starts filling up, there's too much going on to keep track of and no real reason to care about any of it.

[aloniv]

NintendoLogic: That problem barely existed in the earlier wargames matches as the competitors entered every two minutes instead of the 3 minute intervals today. 3 minutes is just too long as it means that after the first 5 minute period you need to wait an additional 15 minutes until all the competitors have entered for a 4 on 4 match (as opposed to an additional 10 minutes for the 2 minute intervals in a 4 on 4 match).

The reason the wargames matches seem to be 45+ minutes today is because the match beyond (the match after all competitors have entered) is essentially another full match, as opposed to a short match in which a fresh competitor (a late entrant) beats a member of the opposing team who was an early entrant or a short match in which one competitor takes advantage of some miscommunication between two members of the opposing team to secure the win (e.g. Sting winning via armbar on Eaton after Zbyszko accidentally hit him with the ringpost).

[SirEdger]

On 12/8/2020 at 12:58 AM, cm funk said:

97 was great.  As a Flair and Horsemen (especially Benoit at the time, sigh) mark it elicited genuine anger from 15-16 yr old me.  It worked to make the "cool heel" nWo loathsome and I couldn't wait to see the comeback....

They didn't follow it up for shit, but I still remember where I was and how I felt watching it, and that's something you can't say for a lot of modern wrestling

The reason the 1997 one worked so well in the grand scheme of things is because basically, the Horsemen got Horsemen'd by the NWO as they did to them what historically, the Horsemen had done to their adversaries; for once, it was someone who turned on the Horsemen to join another stable, not the other way around. It made for an interesting dynamic to follow up afterwards to see how the Horsemen would react to Curt Hennig betraying them after Arn Anderson had offered him his spot as The Enforcer of the stable, now that he was forced to retire.