The grand and pathetic journey of the Undertaker at WrestleMania

[El-P]

So it pretty much invalidates the fact that they were conscious of the Streak, because otherwise they would not have booked Taker in a tag-team match. OR, they did get conscious of it and they used the pretext of Jones sucking to take him out the match at the last moment.

[Loss]

WWE also blamed it on the Iraq war just starting, which always felt pretty valid to me.

[sek69]

I love how this thread pretty much confirmed that like most legendary things in WWE, they just kind of lucked into it. What started off as a showcase for their new zombie gimmick that Vince was obviously really into ended up with them going "oh shit, we accidentally booked a cool Mania undefeated streak, let's go with that". 

Then of course they had no exit plan and ended up blowing it all on someone who didn't need the rub. 

[MoS]

They would acknowledge the streak here and there, but the first time it was a focal point of his match was the Randy Orton match at WM 21. Which incidentally also kickstarted his mini-streak of great matches at WM (I know a lot of people are down on the Henry casket match, but I thought that was a strong match with a Taker tope for the ages)

[Strummer]

Also with 19 Vince/Hogan was given the most tv build up and in reality was promoted as the true main event of the show which many at the time cited as the reason for the low number.

Dave has said Vince matches surprisingly didn't draw well. I believe Superbrawl 99 did a better buyrate than St. Valentines Day Massacre.

the Bret/Vince Mania didn't do that great either

[El-P]

12 minutes ago, Strummer said:

Dave has said Vince matches surprisingly didn't draw well. I believe Superbrawl 99 did a better buyrate than St. Valentines Day Massacre.

the Bret/Vince Mania didn't do that great either

I for one am glad. Vince injecting himself into the scene as a "pro-wrestler" at the Rumble and then at St Valentines was a part (a big part even) of killing my WWF fandom back then. Hogan vs Vince was one of the most ridiculous and putrid vanity matches I've ever seen, and by no mean I'm a Hogan fan.

[Ricky Jackson]

Vince is one of my least favorite wrestlers ever. I know he was 50-something when he started, but I always thought he moved around, and looked, awkward as hell, and the progression from chickenshit in way over his head to facing Undertaker as an equal (whenever that was, 2003?, and winning to boot) is some of the least believable shit ever 

[ohtani's jacket]

I remember enjoying St. Valentine Day’s Massacre, but I hated it when Vince won the title. 

[Coffey]

5 hours ago, sek69 said:

I love how this thread pretty much confirmed that like most legendary things in WWE, they just kind of lucked into it. What started off as a showcase for their new zombie gimmick that Vince was obviously really into ended up with them going "oh shit, we accidentally booked a cool Mania undefeated streak, let's go with that". 

Then of course they had no exit plan and ended up blowing it all on someone who didn't need the rub. 

The conversation about Vince McMahon, Jr. & the legacy of his WWF after he passes is going to be truly legendary to both witness in real time & read opinions about, especially after the fact. I can't think of a more polarizing person in professional wrestling. Hard to argue about his success as a promoter but really, WWF has done two big things: the cable TV expansion where they pretty much just bought out all the talent (which Vince got WWWF/New York from his dad which gave him the means to do so, really) and that WCW shot themselves in the foot when they had WWF in real trouble/danger. The last twenty years or so, they've done... not much. Which is part of the reason why I think WWE feels so stale. They had guys on top, like John Cena. They did the WWE Network, which is a big deal. But really, the biggest things since WCW died were the Saudi Arabia deal & the FOX Smackdown deal. Neither of which made their shows better.

The biggest detriment to WWE imho is the change to focus on the brand instead of the talent. Be it due to paranoia of big stars leaving him again or whatever, it really hurts WWE as a whole when no one is really over & everyone is 50/50 booking with constant stop/start pushes. Also, if you're so scared of your big stars getting bigger than WWE & leaving, like The Rock did, why do you then give so much to a part time guy like Brock Lesnar?

[El-P]

WrestleMania XX (2004) – Undertaker vs Kane

Because of all Taker’s opponents we needed to see twice, they choose Kane... This is a complete revival match and angle as they return the Dead Man gimmick, complete with Paul Bearer looking really unhealthy and the entrance from Mania 14 with the druids carrying torches. This is basically the final look for Taker, the long leathery coat & hat with MMA gloves, although he’s still dressed at Diesel once the match starts. Kane wears no mask (insert random joke about Covid there) so he’s ugly as fuck and his « shocked » acting consist of shaking his head a lot (like he's confronted with the result of last's year election or something).

Complete nothing match, Taker does a few of his typical run-of-the-mil stuff while Kane totally screws up a back bodydrop, does a shitty big boot and his hilarious « clothesline from the top rope » where he has landed on both his feet before his hand barely makes contact with Taker. Also, once the excitement of seeing Taker back in his old self is done, the crowd couldn’t give less of a flying fuck about this match, especially when Kane is on offense. The only thing that awakes them is Taker going for the rope-walk which is gonna get countered this time into a chokeslam attempt before a battle of the choke, which is always super thrilling to witness, really... Oh yeah, and for the first time in years, we get the zombie sit-up, which gets probably the biggest pop of the actual match. Also, Kane apparently can't kick out of the Tombstone anymore now, he's a total JTTS here... No idea why this was even taking place, it’s 2004 and this was a bad match (and just as heatless) 6 years before already.

Complete nothing match not even accomplishing anything except re-introducing Taker as the old Dead Man, which reeks of character reboot for nostalgia purpose (yes, we're deep in the 00's and the past is already looking more appealing to the WWE). Waste of Mania time, especially for Mania 20 at the MSG. Kane sure was a safe worker though, in that it was always a safe bet you’re gonna get a shitty, boring match with him. I reiterate, I had not watched him in years and he’s even worst than I remembered.

4-8

[Mad Dog]

I may not be remembering this right. But wasn't there some VHS tape in the late 90s that mentioned his streak. I feel like I had seen some mention of it there first.

[El-P]

Chapter 6 : Who can beat the Streak ?

WrestleMania 21 (2005) – Undertaker vs Randy Orton

The most interesting thing about this match is that the legendary status of Taker, and Taker being undefeated at Mania, is the focus of the angle with Legend Killer Orton. So in essence, this match is the very first where it’s clearly all about beating the Streak. Classic entrance with druids, torch and gregorian chants, Taker now has this makeup all around his eyes, does the revulsed eyes thingy after he removes his hat to the sound of thunder, the whole presentation is now pretty much fixed until the end, with only minor changes.

Orton dressed in just short tights and boots, sporting tribal tattoos, coming down the ramp to the sound of generic as fuck alternative metal sound, not exactly oozing charisma : he's the picture boy for 00's WWE aesthetics. There’s something to be said about his offense, he’s deeply rooted in the 80’s/early 90’s style : back body-drop, dropkicks, using a sleeper countered into a side-suplex (like he’s Jeff Jarrett in WCW) and even much later in the match doing the whole punching the guy in the face while standing on the corner as the crowd counts, which btw is mostly typical babyface style stuff. Hell, at some point Taker has him in a dragon sleeper (yeah, wtf ?) and they do the old bit of lifting the hand twice before he breaks the hold. Again, total babyface 80’s shit. So, as far as psychology goes, it’s pretty bad when he's supposed to be this heel Legend Killer, supposed to be a legit threat to the biggest unbeatable legend at Mania... and he's basically working like Sam Houston on the undercard of a JCP house show. 

They sure work a lot of pinfall attempts including early ones, but nothing Orton does has any urgency not brutality to it. He’s just doing « ok » old-school pro-wrestling, and by « ok » I mean his execution is not even that great. Bad ring-placement to bump off the rope-walk and very vanilla bumping in general (the corner bumps in particular look really soft and not crisp), nothing interesting in term of actual offense. Meanwhile, Taker does his whole bit, which now include some of Kevin Nash's spots like the damn Snake Eyes, the classic quick punching sequence and usual middle-match spots like the legdrop on the apron while the guy is halfway outside the ring. Occasionally Orton displays some decent reactive spots, but it’s really, really not compelling nor interesting at all and like I said before, the guys doesn’t ooze charisma, it’s really hard to look at him then and think he had been a world champ already. When he acts all shocked that he did not break the all-mighty Streak with a *powerslam*, that’s just plain lame...

The ending basically is a retread of the Flair match, with Daddy Orton doing the cast shot after a ref bump for the one big nearfall, bigger than the RKO which came earlier from a chokeslam counter, basically the one big Orton spot of the match, once again demonstrating he was a total one-move wonder. The Orton Jr. Spot came after a totally screwed up Last Ride fail/counter (no idea if they just fucked up the spot or fucked up what was supposed to be a counter but it looked quite shitty), so ironically that’s also kinda like in the Flair match. Tombstone reversal spot for the win, Randy really never looked in danger of doing anything to Taker, he came off « ok » at best while Taker was carrying the heavy load in term of dynamics and spots.

Not a bad match, the finish worked very well for a crowd who really wasn’t very much into it before the RKO. Pretty good but nothing special, kinda dull. Yeah, so, a Randy Orton match apparently.

5-8

[pmo]

TBF Orton had not fully turned.  He was still mostly a face coming out of leaving Evolution.  He had shown hints of a heel turn but IIRC he didn't fully turn until after this match.  So that might be the explanation for the babyface offense    

[NintendoLogic]

I distinctly remember Orton going full-blown heel during the buildup to Mania by RKOing Stacy Keibler (who was with him in storyline for reasons I don't recall). Something about how he saw doubt in her eyes when he asked her if she thought he could beat Taker. I also remember him RKOing Jake Roberts at some point.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I distinctly remember Orton going full-blown heel during the buildup to Mania by RKOing Stacy Keibler 

Yes, it's showed in the pre-match video, and he really comes off as a full fledge heel all along, including the swerve angle with Daddy Bob Jr.

[MoS]

12 hours ago, El-P said:

and even much later in the match doing the whole punching the guy in the face while standing on the corner as the crowd counts, which btw is mostly typical babyface style stuff. Hell, at some point Taker has him in a dragon sleeper (yeah, wtf ?) and they do the old bit of lifting the hand twice before he breaks the hold. Again, total babyface 80’s shit. So, as far as psychology goes, it’s pretty bad when he's supposed to be this heel Legend Killer, supposed to be a legit threat to the biggest unbeatable legend at Mania... and he's basically working like Sam Houston on the undercard of a JCP house show. 

 

Wait, weren't you just arguing that it is unfair to shoehorn faces and heels into acting in a particular way, and that they should have the freedom to work in whatever way they wish? FWIW, many heels do the corner punching spot; fans chant along cuz fans like chanting

[El-P]

10 minutes ago, MoS said:

Wait, weren't you just arguing that it is unfair to shoehorn faces and heels into acting in a particular way, and that they should have the freedom to work in whatever way they wish? 

As soon as I posted the review, I KNEW this one was coming !  Talk about terrible timing to make such a point, ah ah ! (the Taker reviews have basically been written last month, I had a good laugh when I re-read this today after I went ballistic on "BUT YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT !" yesterday)

But anyway, yeah, I'm for more freedom as long as it makes the match better. Here the main issue is that his offense is really dull whatever he does, it's just not conducive to making things exciting and building a sense of drama or threat. Apart from the RKO and the Daddy Orton spot, I never bought for one second Orton was doing any real damage to Taker.

[MoS]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

As soon as I posted the review, I KNEW this one was coming !  Talk about terrible timing to make such a point, ah ah ! (the Taker reviews have basically been written last month, I had a good laugh when I re-read this today after I went ballistic on "BUT YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT !" yesterday)

But anyway, yeah, I'm for more freedom as long as it makes the match better. Here the main issue is that his offense is really dull whatever he does, it's just not conducive to making things exciting and building a sense of drama or threat. Apart from the RKO and the Daddy Orton spot, I never bought for one second Orton was doing any real damage to Taker.

Okay, so if your issue with Orton is that he executed these face moves boringly and they didn't enhance the match, I can see that. I like the match more than you, but yeah, Orton is really bland in general, and he seems to be unable to show any kind of urgency in his matches. Like the exact opposite of people like Steve Austin and Riki Choshu, where anything they did seemed like the eye of the storm. 

Also, if you have these reviews written out, why are we not getting them more quickly?   

[El-P]

2 hours ago, MoS said:

Like the exact opposite of people like Steve Austin and Riki Choshu, where anything they did seemed like the eye of the storm. 

Yeah, pretty much. Sometimes sheer intensity and urgency goes a long way even though you're not doing a whole lot. Choshu is the best instance of this probably, yes.

2 hours ago, MoS said:

Also, if you have these reviews written out, why are we not getting them more quickly?   

I don't want to spam the board with a barrage of review, plus I wanna let people comment or react or discuss about whatever if they want to.  I do re-arrange them in the light of the whole story now, plus sometime I get infos on the thread itself (like opponent never going for a nearfall during the zombie period, which really I did not remember and could not get out of just watching the Mania matches). I initially wanted to spread this out until Mania, but I don't think I will.

[Boss Rock]

Somewhat of a side note, the build for Taker-Diesel had the awesome wax replica in a casket bit. He figures Taker's inside and wisely grabs a hammer, only to find the replica. Diesel's reaction is perfect. Doesn't comically overreact in fear, he just slams the lid shut and walks away. Not trembling in fear but seriously disturbed in a "Nuh-uh, I'm outta here!" way.

[El-P]

WrestleMania 22 (2006) – Undertaker vs Mark Henry

The casket gimmick is never conducive to good matches because the dynamic is so tedious. I mean, pushing a body in a big box outside the ring and trying to shut the lid, that’s about it. Grand entrance for the casket (ya know, druids, torches and gregorian chants). Taker’s sole evolution this year is that he’s wearing tights all over, no more Diesel pants.

I was pretty curious to see what Henry would bring to that match, most probably the biggest of his career thus far (I mean, Taker at Mania ?). The answer is : pretty much nothing. He’s barely above King Kong Bundy in 1995 level. For a guy whose entire gimmick is that he’s a beast and strong as hell, 95% of his offense here consists of very weak looking random punching and chocking. And yes he does catch Taker on a flying bodyslam, which is a spot Taker *never ever does* against *anyone else*, so there goes the forced counter gimmick spot aka You Can’t Powerbomb Kidman... which Henry follows by going for the pin. Either he really went for it and in this case he’s an idiot, either it was planned so that his character would look like an idiot.

And indeed, the match is extremely tedious even with almost zero casket bullshit at play, as they end up both inside of it once and they do a goozle contest which is about as exciting as it sounds. Henry counters the Old-School once with a punch in the gut, which is a first, but eventually has to eat it. Taker doesn’t do much either, really, but Henry’s plodding, totally unimpressive offense and demeanor really makes the whole thing a whole lot of nothing. Hey, here’s another interesting new trope/spot, as Henry *also* climbs the corner to punch Taker in the face (like Orton the previous year), which allows Taker to do a... sorta... Last Ride... from the second floor really (the announcer calling it a Last Ride was funny as hell as Henry never was above Taker’s pecs level), Henry being very sloppily dropped almost on his neck. As much as it made sense when Trip did it at X7, it has now been used as a shortcut and a cliché spot that doesn’t need to make sense, it's just the way the powerbomb is set up now, because it is.

The big spot of the match to distract from the fact it’s not being good at all is Taker doing his out of control plancha outside, clearing the casket and aiming for Henry. Yeah, doesn’t make much sense and doesn’t save the match either, as impressive at it looks. Tombstone, Henry in casket. Zero drama, Henry displaying jackshit in term of being a huge menacing monster as his offense was truly pathetic, Taker never ever in danger of even thinking about losing.

Compete fail, and it did not even need to gimmick to fail, as it was a complete nothing match anyway.

5-9
 

[Matt D]

Then there's this casket match:

 

 

[Boss Rock]

Grave Consequences is also the casket match done right.

[Ricky Jackson]

Mil Muertes vs Fenix Grave Consequences from Lucha Underground season 1 is by far the best casket match I've ever seen 

[El-P]

Thanks @Matt D, I had never seen that one, that's right up my alley !

Yeah, totally third the love for Grave Consequences. Casket matches basically became fun when they got worked like chaotic garbage brawls with the casket only being one element of it. Lucha Underground had all the awesome visuals to boot, so it was pretty much the best thing ever when I watched that.

As far as this one goes, I'm willing to bet I'd enjoy the Kama one from 1995 better... I loved Kama back then. And no, I did not figure he was Papa Shango until he stopped wearing a shirt.