The grand and pathetic journey of the Undertaker at WrestleMania

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, Strummer said:

As for Shane in 2016 I think you have to account for the fan base being so sick of the HHH and Stephanie characters at that point. The .Authority had dominated tv for 3 years at that point and I think a tease of something different got people interested. Of course it meant nothing as the stips were never adhered to and the .Authority would still be on tv for the next 2 years.

Yup. A no small amount of people actually thought that Shane showing up meant that a) The Authority of Steph and Trips (that was like 3 years running in one way or another as a TV act) was done and b) He was going to "take over" the company for real and for some reason it was going to be way better.

When you take those two things into account and you add the fact that it was Mania season, it's not that hard figuring out why dude meant so much for Mania doing well (and ratings, for while, IIRC).

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Shane, for some reason, has always been thought of as the 'good' McMahon, the 'cool' McMahon. I'm not really sure where that originated from. Probably just his willingness to take crazy ass bumps. 

As an aside, I was at the Raw when he made his return prior to that Mania, and the pop was absolutely ridiculous. Probably the biggest I've ever heard live.

[PeteF3]

The last time I watched the Love Her or Leave Her Match at SummerSlam '99 against Test, it still held up. Has he had a good match since?...probably not.

[Strummer]

There were some people who liked the AJ match at WM 33 but other than that probably not 

[Boss Rock]

I liked it a lot, but A.J. is one of the greatest of all-time.

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, but Shane had a better match with AJ at Mania than Shinsuke Nakamura. You have to give him that.

[MoS]

6 hours ago, Yo-Yo's Roomie said:

Shane, for some reason, has always been thought of as the 'good' McMahon, the 'cool' McMahon. I'm not really sure where that originated from. Probably just his willingness to take crazy ass bumps. 
 

I have never understood this. The worst of Steph is worse than the worst of Shane, but Steph's highs destroys his highs, and 2014-16 run aside, her work was much better as a chickenshit heel in the attitude era than Shane-o-Mac doing his stupid dance steps and going toe-to-toe with Rock

[joeg]

10 minutes ago, MoS said:

The worst of Steph is worse than the worst of Shane

I think you hit the nail on the head. That and Shane has mostly been a babyface on TV while Steph has mostly been a heel on TV. And everything written on one of the dirtmags or said in a shoot interviews has been mostly negative about Steph and positive about Shane. For 20 years the public persona of Steph was that she's a cold hearted bitch and the public persona of Shane is that he's the guy you want with you in a foxhole. WWE went through a lot of trouble to create these public personas. I think that has a lot to do with the public opinion of the two of them. 

[Coffey]

I liked Stephanie McMahon a lot back in the days of the Love Triangle between her, Triple H & Kurt Angle. That got squashed quickly. I liked her feud with Trish Stratus too, which led to her taking a Stone Cold Stunner as it intertwined with the feud between Steve Austin & Triple H. I thought Stephanie was really cute back in the Wrestlemania X-Seven days, too. Although that hideous angle with a comatose Linda McMahon that Vince McMahon was making out with Trish Stratus in front of didn't do anyone involved any favors. I was also a huge ECW mark so when I saw Shane McMahon "steal" the Rob Vam Dam Van Terminator, I was pissed! 

Yeah, I think I like Stephanie more than Shane, it's just that Stephanie wore out her welcome by never going away during The Authority era & Shane kind of went awhile for quite awhile, so people had time to forget him getting on their nerves with his shitty punches & that awful Mean Street Posse mess. 

Vince McMahon is obviously better than both & Linda McMahon is obviously the worst of the lot. I'd say Vince, Steph, Shane, Linda. 

 

[El-P]

 

On 3/12/2021 at 4:53 PM, Blehschmidt said:

I don't have much to add, but I am having a shitty day, and I read that last review on my lunch break, and it's the first thing all day that's made me laugh, so Thank for that @El-P!!

On 3/12/2021 at 5:26 PM, Ricky Jackson said:

Oh yeah, this was the review I've been waiting for since day one of this mission. Hilarious stuff here.

Well, I guess I did my job right then !

21 hours ago, Robert S said:

At first I read this as Shane being the spoiled brat and Vince Jr. being the failure as a businessman who only ended up being rich thanks to Vince Sr. Which, if you think about it, might not be that far from the truth either. If you read Vince Jr.'s Wikipedia bio you might think that he was a successful promoter before buying (if you want to call that deal that) WWF, but he bankrupted at least one earlier business he founded. And we all know, how all Vince's non-wrestling businesses went later on (Ico Pro, WBF, WWF New York, XFL twice and I am sure others I cannot currently think of).

I absolutely did not think about it but it actually makes all the sense in the world.

[El-P]

WrestleMania 33 (2017) – Undertaker vs Roman Reigns

This was the mercy killing, in more ways than one. It was also the match that should have followed the Brock Lesnar one, when Taker was in much better shape than he is there, as he truly comes off old and broken down. That actually plays into the work and the amazing post-match which really renews with the Mythical quality of the character (as opposed to the Brock post-match which turned him into a mere mortal), but the match itself would have been much better if Taker had been in the same shape he was two years before. If there’s a match to show to display Roman Reigns qualities as a worker, it’s this one, as he’s gonna work around Taker’s limitations with great care, despite being absolutely shit on by the audience although in that case, it’s less damaging for him as he’s literally putting Taker out to pasture, which can only be a heel posture. Anyway, this is really the last true Mania match for Taker, with a big match feel that hasn’t been felt since the Brock one, and honestly judging by the crowd reaction, hasn’t been felt since the Triple H ones.

Taker has grown back his hair long, to get the old-school look. Well, it’s more the "look old" now, really. Speaking of Old-School, I believe it’s the very first time there’s not even a tease of it (hey, maybe since the Snuka match !), if anything else it truly shows it’s the end. Snake Eyes/Big Boot really is the only true classic medium spot he does, as Roman is busy pinballing for him and doing what Taker can’t do anymore : be quick and fast and snappy. Not for to long though because Taker can’t follow up, so there’s this huge spot outside with Roman spearing Taker through a table, from there it allows Taker do basically be half-dead, which he was (and I don’t mean the early zombie gimmick either). They’ll soon transition into what is now a given, Roman kicking out of the Tombstone. Hearing the announcers acting shocked is the most ridiculous thing ever, it’s only been the 8th consecutive year now. A straight Tombstone is not a finisher, hasn’t been forever now. So, that part is quite the ridiculous WWE pseudo-nearfall and drama, as is Taker kicking out the of first spear. Like, doh !

Roman beating on Taker, who looks gassed as all hell, ends up on the corner for the good old trope of the Last Ride set-up (really Roman ? REALLY ?), for a powerbomb with no power, Taker puts everything he has left to lift Roman a bit higher than the last few years and basically lets him fall... Kinda sad. This is gonna turn into some re-enactment of the first Triple H match (they are working the same No Holds Barred gimmick BTW), as smokes and mirrors are a requisite at this stage, with Roman beating Taker with the chair and telling him to stay down. This is goint into a chokeslam onto the chair for an actual credible nearfall, that one did work. A Tombstone reversal is tried and it’s a very visible failure as they try twice and fumbles down, Roman eventually just does a Superman Punch to save the day. It also kinda depresses the crowd audibly. The *real* pathetic state of Taker at this point (there’s another instance where he’s totally out of place for the Superman Punches and Roman has to work around him, literally) plays into the match, as it is the story of a mercy killing, Taker doing the Michaels spot of grabbing Roman’s legs in a nice callback. Time to kick out of another spear and for Roman to sell the drama, which he does more than well honestly. This dynamic works much better than the Brock match honestly, as the inevitable finish actually was very well built.

So there, Taker has lost, and he has visibly lost it. The post-match is brilliant though, both the visual of Roman looking back toward the ring with the huge Mania setup enlightened by giant fireworks and of course Taker as an almost a spectral figure in full gear, taking off his gloves, folding his leather coat and taking off his hat for the very last time (not!), to the genuine emotion of the crowd, and then slowly leaving the scene and being sucked into the ground in the middle of the giant ramp. Just a perfect ending for the character after a match which, despite its shortcomings (Taker being visibly washed up and the kinda ridiculous forced drama induced by the first obligatory kick-out-of-finishers sequence, which at this point was no more than another trope and transition bit toward a bigger finish) worked pretty well, mostly (entirely ?) thanks to Roman’s performance.

Yeah, this match should have followed the loss to Brock for a last act, or at the very least followed a cool post-loss match with a huge star like, say, John Cena. But of course, we did not get that now, did we ?

13-1-11

[KawadaSmile]

Man I remember being so pissed that people shat on Roman as a worker because of that match. Good to know that public perception jas changed a bit.

All's good, though, as the opening RAW segment after that Mania is still one of the best ever.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

Good to know that public perception jas changed a bit.

I dunno about the public perception, but as you know I'm not a Roman fan and as I was watching this match live, I knew Roman was the one saving it from disaster.

Why am I not surprised you replied to that one first bubba ?  

[Kadaveri]

My favourite bit of stupidity about this match was criticising Roman Reigns for "not being strong enough" to do the tombstone. That's totally what went wrong there...

I watched this Wrestlemania with a bunch of non-fans who'd never seen an Undertaker match before. They seemed really into it as a "mercy killing" style story, more than the actual wrestling fans heh.

[KawadaSmile]

15 minutes ago, El-P said:

I dunno about the public perception, but as you know I'm not a Roman fan and as I was watching this match live, I knew Roman was the one saving it from disaster.

Why am I not surprised you replied to that one first bubba ?  

I mean I was looking forward to this one a lot. I'm not really a fan of the match, but the story behind it is fascinating. IIRC it did lead to Taker refusing to retire for some years, as he wanted to have a good performance to finish things.

But about public perception, it seems people are giving him his due more now. About time.

[Coffey]

3 hours ago, El-P said:

I'm not a Roman fan

Aww, I didn't know that. That kind of legit makes me sad. 

[El-P]

22 minutes ago, Coffey said:

Aww, I didn't know that. That kind of legit makes me sad. 

Awww, come on, like it's anything new. I was never impressed that much during Roman's many pushes of terror when it happened. Not that I thought he was bad, but certainly nothing special to me. Too "WWE main event style" patterned. The Superman Punch spamming annoyed me to no end. He seems to have hit his stride lately as a heel, good for him. That does not kept me from putting him over in that Taker match though.

[Boss Rock]

That image of Roman standing tall with fireworks going off in the night sky was pretty badass.

[El-P]

WrestleMania 34 (2018) – "Undertaker vs John Cena"

There’s this idea that Disney should buy WWE. Well, this "match" gives you pretty much the idea of what WWE would be under Disney. This is basically what we call « fan service ». Much like Disney has done with the Star Wars franchise (since we’re talking about brands here, really), from the atrocious (that last trilogy, especially the very last movie which is an embarrassment of epic proportions) to the « quite ok job of selling toys » with the Mandalorian. In other words :

Mania 33 : Undertaker the perfect send-off

Mania 34 : nevermind...

Yeah, I know it’s wrestling, but it still makes no sense whatsoever to have Taker back after the perfect ending. But you gotta do fan service. Ok. Yeah, sure the intro is still great. And fuck me if John Cena is not doing some of the greatest sell-job for Taker’s character. Yeah Shane McMahon you useless waste oxygen supply, JOHN MOFERFUCKING CENA is selling that’s he’s INTIMIDATED by the Undertaker. Anyway. That is actually what’s so depressing about this. Well, that and the fact that despite playing the hits for two minutes (fan service), Taker does about the most laughable flying clothesline he ever did (I mean, Kane would approve of it...) and really doesn’t look like « the best he's ever been » like this dumb fuck Micheal Cole says at the end. Yeah, the announcing really has reached a level of straight verbal lobotomy, it’s crazy anyone can still listen to this shit without going totally gaga.

But anyway. What’s so depressing about this is that THIS is the Taker vs John Cena Mania match we get. Why in the living fuck could they not have booked the ONE dream match EVERYONE ACTUALLY WANTED FOREVER BEFORE ENDING THE STREAK ? So there, John Cena vs Undertaker is a two minutes fan-service idiotic non-match one year after one of the greatest send-off and Mania closing ever. Well fucking done. And really now, this is not a match. This is pure fan-service. If this was a match, John Cena kicks out of the finisher as everybody as done, including that goof Bray Wyatt whom Cena had defeated a few years before (not to mention that other idiot whose name I won’t even write anymore). It’s just ridiculous. About as ridiculous as Disney bringing back a CGI Carrie Fisher to work some nonsense sequence. Might as well been a CGI Taker there.

So ok, I get it, people in the stadium sure were happy to see Taker and why the fuck not, but in the grand scheme of things it makes no sense and is a very frustrating reminder that we never got and will never get maybe the biggest dream match WWE could have booked for seemingly ten years now, and seeing how GREAT Cena is at little things like his amazing sell of the zombie sit-up (he basically stumbles and stop as he was running toward Taker), it’s a pretty safe bet that it would have been one of the best Taker’s Mania matches and one of the greatest big stadium spectacle ever. Instead we got fan-service years too late.

Fuck you WWE.

13-1-12

[Boss Rock]

I remember really liking this in the moment as it was the ultimate "dog catches a car and has no idea what to do with it". Cena had been angling for this match for months and now that he finally got it, he realized "Oh shit, I didn't prepare for this at all". But in hindsight, yeah this sucked. Not only was Taker coming back extremely dumb, but it was such a disservice to Cena. He deserved a hell of a lot better than this.

[flyonthewall2983]

Best thing about that match is Cena sitting out in the audience earlier in the show, and when he has his Clark Kent moment and leaves for backstage to the roar of the audience. But then it became Lucy and the football once the bell rang.

[El-P]

WrestleMania 36 (2020) – Undertaker vs AJ Styles

This is COVID-era, this is cinematic pro-wrestling, this is not really a match so I won’t even get into it, as it’s still fresh in everybody’s mind and it was quite the amazing spectacle and a great performance from everyone involved (that includes the production people) and really capped off the Taker’s arc in some bizarre, almost fan-fiction way (it’s only logical he came back as pretty much his own biker-self, the Grim Reaper had basically vanished if you don’t count his Disney-ish fan service bonus appearance the previous year), really characteristic of its times, and against one of the greatest pro-wrestler ever. Since he came back way too many times before and they screwed up with some really bad stuff after the end of the Streak, at least we got this to get very satisfying ending credits I guess.

This was very much Make Undertaker Great Again.  

14-1-12

[Ricky Jackson]

My prediction about halfway through (I should've posted it then) was 13-14, with me giving L's to Lesnar and Reigns. I understand why you were more forgiving on those. The Reigns match, with all the spectacle and post-match, is probably better than remembered, but it was at the end of an epic 7 hour slog that had me barely engaged by the main event. I doubt I'll ever rewatch to see if my opinion changes 

[El-P]

Well, let's be real for a minute. I put the third HHH match in the W because I find it funny as fuck. It's still a bad match though. I put the second HHH match in the W because it did work, but I don't really enjoy it. I could easily have put the Lesnar match in the L, so call me semi-generous on that.

Although I admit nothing touches the epicness of both Micheals matches, my two favourites actually happened back to back too and are the Batista and Edge matches. Two great matches, two totally different styles. The Batista match is a great bombfest, just the perfect spectacle for a Mania in a stadium. The Edge match is really smartly laid out, like, super smart (not sure what that says about Edge, I know he's pretty much hated around this part but the fact remains, it's easily the smartest laid out Taker match I've seen and it ain't Taker doing it). 

The Shane match like I said is some of the worst shit I've ever seen. The Big Boss Man match would be nothing, but the total garbage misuse of the gimmick and the post-match makes it offensive as hell. The Bundy, Gonzalez and Kane matches are terrible.

So yeah, it's a bunch of highs and a bunch of the lowest of the low. As long as Taker who doing the zombie gimmick, which he did to perfection, his matches plain sucked. So, "playing your role right" goes so far, but I've always been advocating that "playing your role right" was usually played as a card to defend limited or shitty workers. I can't say I was really impressed by any of Taker's performance until I guess the Batista match. He did a fine job carrying Flair & Orton (one because he was past his prime and without any confidence left, the other because he was dull as fuck). What struck me also is that he really never had an epic match until it became really a self-conscious affair that he *had to* and the context and setting put all the good cards in his deck. Him and Michaels did had two great, epic matches, in a style that really isn't the best to me because it is the apex of a self-conscious Mania epic. It did work, no argument at all and I have no issue calling both match great. But it has to be said it was a grand production from the get-go. It's also a time when Taker was working toward having that one great match a year, so if he failed, that would have been pretty much the entirety of his output for the year which would have been considered a failure. Four years straight, he had great matches. Then, he had a really forced epic and a really forced failed epic (the two Triple H matches, none of which I'd call great, the worst of the two being also the most entertaining), another excellent/great match in which he was totally carried by Punk. And then it was a bunch of nothing to awful matches/performances (until the cinematic, of course, but it "doesn't count").

Coming off this little project, I can't say I'm very impressed with Taker as a worker. I was always under the impression he was overrated whenever he was in the conversation for "great big man worker", but for sure his best output at Mania has heavily dependent on a context that really advantaged him on all fronts. And his negative output is actually pretty damn big and pretty damn low. Blame the gimmick, blame the opponents, the fact remains he almost never comes off as a great worker to me. A good one on average, for sure. A guy who became better at working big matches when he got past 40, but for a few years only because he was already shot. But for a long, long time, he just wasn't very compelling (his first really good match at Mania was more or less carried by Kevin Nash's heavy looking offense and charisma to me) and relied almost solely on a gimmick that was both awesome and pretty restricting in term of working good matches.

[MoS]

Taker between 2008-10 was actually fairly active, which probably helped him have such great wrestling conditioning in those epic matches