C.S. Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 So, avoiding GWE almost entirely ended up being a great decision on my part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Loss, I for one would have absolutely no problem remaining silent while you dispensed wisdom in a thread here. Hope you're doing ok - my four year old and wife are ready to kill each other daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 6 hours ago, BigBadMick said: Loss, I for one would have absolutely no problem remaining silent while you dispensed wisdom in a thread here. Hope you're doing ok - my four year old and wife are ready to kill each other daily. Ditto here, except my child is six. It's rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 13 hours ago, C.S. said: So, avoiding GWE almost entirely ended up being a great decision on my part? It was an amazing vehicle for learning more about wrestling history and different regions - opened a bunch of eyes to Puerto Rico (as more than just Stabbyville, anyway) & World of Sport, for instance. But it could bring out the worst in some folks on occasion and was a grind to get through if you took it really seriously. Note how much less activity the tag-team ballot got and how heavily biased it was toward 80s US teams - the people who joined the board for just GWE had all their energy taken up by the main ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 The end result showed that most of all, it was a pretty reactionary thing, very biased toward older and US stuff, very biased toward WWE (I guess 15 years of monopoly will do that), very biased against japanese women, lucha libre (which did better than in 2006 but not that great either, that being said the lucha libre fans did themselves no favors honestly with the goofy "lucha libre is the hardest pro-wrestling to get" argument which only gave bullets to some infamous lucha haters) and post 00's stuff that isn't WWE. I would hope a 2026 poll would balance itself with a much more open minded spirit toward the modern stuff, but considering the "pro-wrestling was better 20 years ago" mentality of many, I doubt it would be the case, sadly (or maybe in five years, people will complain that the zoomers can't work and that they miss the good old times of the 10's when pro-wrestling was good ). Fuck, I'd probably have a ballot with Omega, Okada, Tanahashi and Styles in the top 10 now, easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 I think GWE was a great project but my problem with it in hindsight is that we were ranking real people and not ranking their body of work. It's much easier for me to say a match is better than another match than that a human being is better than another human being. There are also a lot of legendary pro wrestlers I don't necessarily want to endorse as people. And I had trouble articulating that for a long time, but ... there you go. What I like about whatever wrestling exploration I've done since then is that there are no stakes. I don't have to ask if what I'm enjoying is really better than Terry Funk or whatever else. I can just enjoy it on its own terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, El-P said: The end result showed that most of all, it was a pretty reactionary thing, very biased toward older and US stuff, very biased toward WWE (I guess 15 years of monopoly will do that), very biased against japanese women, lucha libre (which did better than in 2006 but not that great either, that being said the lucha libre fans did themselves no favors honestly with the goofy "lucha libre is the hardest pro-wrestling to get" argument which only gave bullets to some infamous lucha haters) and post 00's stuff that isn't WWE. I would hope a 2026 poll would balance itself with a much more open minded spirit toward the modern stuff, but considering the "pro-wrestling was better 20 years ago" mentality of many, I doubt it would be the case, sadly (or maybe in five years, people will complain that the zoomers can't work and that they miss the good old times of the 10's when pro-wrestling was good ). Fuck, I'd probably have a ballot with Omega, Okada, Tanahashi and Styles in the top 10 now, easily. Aspects of wrestling are better and aspects of wrestling are worse, but I will say in their defense that the vast majority of people weren't going off of memory when saying these things. If someone thought old wrestling was better, in most cases it was because they watched old and new stuff and that's what they truly believed. I've watched a lot of 80s wrestling in recent months and I don't think it's fair to say it was "better". It's more that different things were emphasized in the presentation, which some might appreciate. To me, the best quality of 1980s wrestling more than the match quality is that it truly feels like it's part of the pop culture zeitgeist of the time. I would argue that was less true in the 90s than the 80s, less true in the 00s than the 90s, and less true in the 10s than the 00s. But yes, there are probably more 4*+ matches than ever. It's a matter of whether you care more about content (quality of matches) or presentation (booking and atmosphere). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 22 minutes ago, Loss said: Aspects of wrestling are better and aspects of wrestling are worse, but I will say in their defense that the vast majority of people weren't going off of memory when saying these things. If someone thought old wrestling was better, in most cases it was because they watched old and new stuff and that's what they truly believed. I've watched a lot of 80s wrestling in recent months and I don't think it's fair to say it was "better". It's more that different things were emphasized in the presentation, which some might appreciate. To me, the best quality of 1980s wrestling more than the match quality is that it truly feels like it's part of the pop culture zeitgeist of the time. I would argue that was less true in the 90s than the 80s, less true in the 00s than the 90s, and less true in the 10s than the 00s. But yes, there are probably more 4*+ matches than ever. It's a matter of whether you care more about content (quality of matches) or presentation (booking and atmosphere). WWE's endless and sometimes embarrassing thirst for mainstream approval only further proves the point here IMO. 80s wrestling just assumed it was part of pop culture as opposed to constantly clout chasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, Loss said: I think GWE was a great project but my problem with it in hindsight is that we were ranking real people and not ranking their body of work. It's much easier for me to say a match is better than another match than that a human being is better than another human being. Yeah, totally agree with that point. I'm not sure I'd be interested in doing that honestly. 37 minutes ago, Loss said: It's a matter of whether you care more about content (quality of matches) or presentation (booking and atmosphere). I dunno. There's so much toxicity about old pro-wrestling especially in the US (blatant racism, homophobia, sexism) that it can be awkward to watch these days honestly (and really, some of these aspects already bothered me when I was 15 years old). As far as pure aesthetics, I take the Lucha Underground setting over anything from the past. And I love the more out there stuff that has been done both in IMPACT (Wrestler House) and AEW (Stadium Stampede). I for one love the fact pro-wrestlers of today have embraced the cheesiness of the history of pro-wrestling and have a meta approach to it at times. So it's really not a matter of "more 4* matches" (which really doesn't mean much since ratings are very subjectives). Basically I'm more excited about what's to come instead of what used to be. And I do believe that the best matches of today blow away the best matches of yesteryear in every aspect : moves and psychology. Not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Most criticism of wrestling presentation is based on the idea that it should be a TV show that doesn't know it's a TV show. I think that's a better way to say it than it seeming "real". But the idea that overproduced segments, obvious scripting that doesn't sound like real-life conflict, etc. is bad. The best 80s wrestling TV is the simplest -- jawjacking leading to unscheduled brawls while everyone in the studio screams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Loss said: The best 80s wrestling TV is the simplest -- jawjacking leading to unscheduled brawls while everyone in the studio screams. Maybe. But that was the 80's. 40 years ago. The idea that pro-wrestling in the 2020's should be anything like the pro-wrestling in the 80's doesn't make much sense to me (which is why I did not care for the first version of NWA Powerr). It's like saying hip-hop in 2020 should be inspired by Run DMC and Eric B & Rakim. I mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, El-P said: I dunno. There's so much toxicity about old pro-wrestling especially in the US (blatant racism, homophobia, sexism) that it can be awkward to watch these days honestly (and really, some of these aspects already bothered me when I was 15 years old). You're not wrong, but is modern pro wrestling any better with the sex pests and Q anon dummies? I suppose it's better in the sense that there's more of a push to get that kind of garbage out of the business as opposed to back then, but when the biggest company around is still an alt-right beehive it's hard to argue things are all that different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 NWA Power was campy. It wasn't their intent, but that's how I saw it, with people seeming to boo on cue and the silly commercials. I don't think 2020s wrestling should look like 1980s wrestling, but I do think there should be a through line. New Japan seems connected to its own history and like it's the next logical step in their evolution, whether I love everything they do or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Just now, sek69 said: You're not wrong, but is modern pro wrestling any better with the sex pests and Q anon dummies? I suppose it's better in the sense that there's more of a push to get that kind of garbage out of the business as opposed to back then, but when the biggest company around is still an alt-right beehive it's hard to argue things are all that different. Of course there are still pieces of shit in the business, but probably "less" than before, and really you won't hear a crowd chant "faggot" at a heel nor an announcer say "She likes it !" when a babyface sexually assault a heel valet. And probably less racist angles and characters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Loss said: I don't think 2020s wrestling should look like 1980s wrestling, but I do think there should be a through line. New Japan seems connected to its own history and like it's the next logical step in their evolution, whether I love everything they do or not. AEW is definitely connected to pro-wrestling history, much more than any mainstream company ever was, really (I mean, before WWE "bought" a part of pro-wrestling history). Even IMPACT embraces their crappy TNA heritage (although in a very ironic way). I don't see any modern pro-wrestling that is just from nowhere with no attachment to pro-wrestling as it was. Even Lucha Underground was, despite the witches and killings and aliens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 I like AEW and want them to be successful. I love some of what they do more than other stuff, but I think competition is generally good for pro wrestling and I do see them as the fan-friendly group. When AEW strikes out, they seem to pick up on it and adjust in real time instead of doubling down and saying it's the fans who are wrong. That's their best quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Would it be possible for one of us that uses the Armchair Booking forum on a frequent basis to be assigned the powers to moderate just that forum? There are several threads in the Dawn of War forum that need to be locked. The folks you made the 1981 sub-folder for, are using the Millenium Project folder instead, so those two could be merged, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 I think it's possible, but I don't know how to do it in Admin CP, where I could give someone that authority without giving them authority anywhere else on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, El-P said: Of course there are still pieces of shit in the business, but probably "less" than before, and really you won't hear a crowd chant "faggot" at a heel nor an announcer say "She likes it !" when a babyface sexually assault a heel valet. And probably less racist angles and characters too. I think the big difference is that outside of WWE, there's a lot less pieces of shit running wrestling companies. It's refreshing to see a lot of the more well known indy fed promoters taking a stand against working with known garbage humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 minute ago, sek69 said: I think the big difference is that outside of WWE, there's a lot less pieces of shit running wrestling companies. It's refreshing to see a lot of the more well known indy fed promoters taking a stand against working with known garbage humans. After the Taker debacle the other week there was this talk about the locker rooms being much better today than they ever were in the past too. Of course #SpeakingOut showed that there was still a lot of issues, especially with the rise of women pro-wrestling in the US and Europe with all the grooming and creepy coaching stuff (as before it was basically wrestlers having sex with groupies, the whole "rat" culture itself was probably quite an ugly thing at times), but overall, there are less true carnies in pro-wrestling. Maybe that was part of its "charm", or maybe we all romanticized this aspect of pro-wrestling for way too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 17 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said: Would it be possible for one of us that uses the Armchair Booking forum on a frequent basis to be assigned the powers to moderate just that forum? There are several threads in the Dawn of War forum that need to be locked. The folks you made the 1981 sub-folder for, are using the Millenium Project folder instead, so those two could be merged, etc. That's what I was about to ask, since I just noticed the 1981 sub-folder too. I was the one who suggested Dr. Dunk to use the Millenium Project, since this was my project rather than creating another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Totally empathize with Loss here - part of me has always been uncomfortable with the push on this board for Lawler as the GOAT, as his particular offenses hit close to home for me. i'm sure some folks feel that way about Carlos Colon as well... EDIT: i also consider it rather damning that GWE only had one woman and one black wrestler in the top 50...and they were the same person! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, funkdoc said: i'm sure some folks feel that way about Carlos Colon as well... Back in the days, I made snarky comments about people stanning Invader 1 when he was the "new hot find" and I was met with agressive replies about me having houlier than thou attitude and such. I'm sure it would be *quite* different these days. Things have evolved quite a bit. And yeah, not only Lawler is overrated as a worker but the fact he seemingly still gets a pass because "he threw great punches" really remains a head-scratching thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, El-P said: And yeah, not only Lawler is overrated as a worker but the fact he seemingly still gets a pass because "he threw great punches" really remains a head-scratching thing to me. It will never not boggle my mind that Jerry liking young girls was a frequent punchline on WWF/E TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, sek69 said: It will never not boggle my mind that Jerry liking young girls was a frequent punchline on WWF/E TV. That's the same company (probably more like the same business) where the Terry Garvin school of self-defense was a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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