2026 Ideas

[El-P]

35 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 I like the idea of a list that grows and changes depending on viewing habits. I see it more as a personal statement than a carefully considered, well-reasoned ballot. 

26 minutes ago, elliott said:

I agree. 

Thirded. The "goal" for me will be to have the most satisfactory personal list I can at that point. I feel like the 2006 list was really up to where I was then. The 2016 list I was quite dissatisfied with (not to mention the overall results), as it was a mix of stuff from memory, canonical names, names thrown it despite the fact I had not watched nor enjoyed nearly enough to justify their high placement... (and really it wasn't a good time at all for me IRL, I remember I left the board basically a few months before and submitted a list at the last moment)

26 minutes ago, elliott said:

When I watch Jaguar Yokota is really blows up the idea that Jumbo was a best in the world contender until later in his career.  Watch Jaguar and Jumbo side by side and its clear who's operating at a completely different level. 

I mean, Jumbo was terrific in the 70's already. But at the exact same time, Jaguar was blowing *everyone* out of the water. She was like ten years ahead of her time in term of, well, everything (and no, I don't say that from memory, I'm slowly diving into the old stuff, some of which I've seen before, tons I haven't).

[elliott]

Oh I'm fairly sure Jumbo would still make my top 25. So I'm not dismissing him. Jaguar was just ahead of her time. She wasn't just light years ahead of Jumbo she was light years ahead of everybody. 

I also think the best stretch of Jumbo's career came when Jaguar was retired in 86-92. So its not a totally fair comparison.  

[elliott]

Oh, ha! El-P beat me to it. 

[concrete1992]

I think all this activity means we should jump start the timing for tomorrow. That’s all I’m saying

[Grimmas]

12 minutes ago, Shrike02 said:

I would never pretend to have much knowledge of joshi but this dismissive take on Jumbo is pretty absurd in my view. I'd say Jumbo was great from when he started all the way to 1992. Not many wrestlers have a comparable career with both peak and longevity.

It's not dismissive of Jumbo, it's a statement on how insanely great Jaguar was.

[Grimmas]

5 minutes ago, concrete1992 said:

I think all this activity means we should jump start the timing for tomorrow. That’s all I’m saying

I still have one more section of the pod to record, but I will put it out Friday. Patient

[El-P]

Damn, loving the new avatar.

[JerryvonKramer]

I will be much less invested in the actual finished rankings this time, the injection of youth and ribald hipsterism will almost certainly mean that some IWC indie darling will finish top in 2026, and that can't be helped.

 

But the flipside of that is that any attempt at even the pretense of objectivity will be dropped from my end and I will focus on getting the 100 that "feels right", which may well mean jettisoning all modern computer-generated video game workers from orbit. I'd also much rather try to see Bryan runs in context than watching his greatest hits matches.

 

That said looking at 2016 now, I feel like several 80s guys look too high on the final listings. Rick Rude at 77 and Curt Hennig at 55 both stand out to me. Maybe it's just my memory but these guys seem like they positively coasted into the top 100 compared to most others in the list who had extremely extended analysis. 

[Shrike02]

7 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

It's not dismissive of Jumbo, it's a statement on how insanely great Jaguar was.

That's fair. I find it interesting because I'm coming from the perspective that Jumbo is #1 until I find compelling reasons to rank someone above him. I guess I have to do a deep dive on joshi if such claims are being made and I feel they should be taken seriously or otherwise what is the point of this project for me. We're supposed to watch new stuff and this gives me a good reason to do so.

[elliott]

. 

8 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

I will be much less invested in the actual finished rankings this time, the injection of youth and ribald hipsterism will almost certainly mean that some IWC indie darling will finish top in 2026, and that can't be helped.

 

But the flipside of that is that any attempt at even the pretense of objectivity will be dropped from my end and I will focus on getting the 100 that "feels right", which may well mean jettisoning all modern computer-generated video game workers from orbit. I'd also much rather try to see Bryan runs in context than watching his greatest hits matches.

So awesome that you went from wondering if you'll participate to apparently deciding that you will (to everyone's disappointment) and then start bashing the project before it even starts. 

Great. Just what everyone was hoping would happen. 

[Matt D]

Re: Jumbo. I will say I don't find the "best guy in the best promotion" very compelling as an argument. For one, I'm not at all convinced 70s-80s AJPW is the best promotion even if it had big stars from all other facets. But even if that's true "Best guy in the best promotion" is an anti-argument that doesn't at all delve into his work and what made him the best. Engage with the text.

[JerryvonKramer]

2 minutes ago, elliott said:

. 

So awesome that you went from wondering if you'll participate to apparently deciding that you will (to everyone's disappointment) and then start bashing the project before it even starts. 

Great. Just what everyone was hoping would happen. 

If it is to everyone's disappointment, then I won't take part. Simple as that.

 

I am not bashing it though, it's just a reality given the ages of people taking part and the more de-centralised nature of the project this time round that it is going to tend towards a certain type of list. Do you think Rick Martel has a shot of finishing at 43 this time round? I strongly doubt we'll be seeing workers like that in the top 100. 

[Matt D]

I don't know if you can come home again given where you've been and where you still are; just saying.

But if you are going to try to come home, for fuck's sake, err on the side of kindness and respect as best you can. Focus on the arguments, not value judgments of people who may or may not be voting. Like I said, engage with the text.

[El-P]

10 minutes ago, elliott said:

So awesome that you went from wondering if you'll participate to apparently deciding that you will (to everyone's disappointment) and then start bashing the project before it even starts. 

Great. Just what everyone was hoping would happen. 

Not surprised in the least. This kind of attitude is what made last poll a chore for so many people. The next one has not been jumpstarted and already we have to endure the fucking bullshit about "hipsterism" (whatever the fuck that means ie nothing) and "video game generated modern workers" ?

I hope we get 20 something years old women voters from TikTok and they have Sasha Banks as n°1 and the 2026 GWE is basically a gigantic "Ok boomer" middle finger to the previous one. 

[elliott]

Preach it El-P 

[ohtani's jacket]

46 minutes ago, elliott said:

Oh I'm fairly sure Jumbo would still make my top 25. So I'm not dismissing him. Jaguar was just ahead of her time. She wasn't just light years ahead of Jumbo she was light years ahead of everybody. 

I also think the best stretch of Jumbo's career came when Jaguar was retired in 86-92. So its not a totally fair comparison.  

Steady on young fella!

Jaguar was a phenomenal pro-wrestler, who is completely overlooked these days, but she had contemporaries. Not only in Joshi, but look at some of the other talent from that era -- Fujinami, Hara, Marty Jones, Marc Rocco, Fit Finlay, Dynamite Kid, Mile Zrno, Franz van Buyten, Steve Grey, Jim Breaks, Jon Cortez, and God knows how many luchadores.

In Jumbo's defense, those were all lighter wrestlers. The primary comparison for Jumbo ought to be heavyweights, and the big tick he gets there is that he had a much bigger arsenal than a lot of his contemporaries because of how many suplexes he was allowed to use. Which is great if you like suplexes, but if you prefer mat wrestling then you're out of luck. I'm an outlier, but at this point I'd rather watch some worked BS MMA match between Inoki and a martial artist than watch Jumbo channel the NWA heavyweight style. 

But in all honesty, it probably comes down to Jaguar's glare vs. that dumb look of disbelief that Jumbo always has. 

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The primary comparison for Jumbo ought to be heavyweights, and the big tick he gets there is that he had a much bigger arsenal than a lot of his contemporaries because of how many suplexes he was allowed to use. Which is great if you like suplexes, but if you prefer mat wrestling then you're out of luck.

I've seen a few older Jumbo matches lately too, and what I will say is that the number of suplexes allowed him (at times; I need to see more to decide if this is endemic or just a couple of matches) to switch things up narratively and build to them in different ways. He could tease one earlier in a match, but then use a different one for a transition or to cement control for a time which let him pay off that initial one later. I'm much more interested in how he used the suplexes from match to match than the fact he had them, at least as it pertains to his earlier work before all the heavyweights started power bombing each other.

[elliott]

 

8 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Steady on young fella!

Jaguar was a phenomenal pro-wrestler, who is completely overlooked these days, but she had contemporaries. Not only in Joshi, but look at some of the other talent from that era -- Fujinami, Hara, Marty Jones, Marc Rocco, Fit Finlay, Dynamite Kid, Mile Zrno, Franz van Buyten, Steve Grey, Jim Breaks, Jon Cortez, and God knows how many luchadores. In Jumbo's defense, those were all lighter wrestlers.

Wait...Ashura?

I will make a real effort to watch the WoS folks this time around instead of looking at a few things here and there. I could see some of them being on Jaguar's level. I'm really thinking of her in comparison to fellow Japanese and US workers. Lucha is harder to say because we don't have as clear a picture of that era until 84 which is mid 80s not early 80s

My goals are:

 close any gaps completely on classic 70s-90s Joshi

 get a grasp of women's wrestling from 2003-present. 

50s US Golden Era

European stuff. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Indeed.

[elliott]

Wait...Ashura Hara looked like that in the 70s? You're blowing my mind right now...

Ok adding 70s and early 80s Ashura Hara to my list of stuff to watch for sure.  Big fan of his 80s and early 90s stuff. This is exciting. GWE 2026 Baby! 

[ohtani's jacket]

You haven't seen his pre-match getups yet. He looks like Rudy Ray Moore. 

[elliott]

WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW OMFG HAHAHAHAHA! Yessssssssss. 

[JerryvonKramer]

43 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I've seen a few older Jumbo matches lately too, and what I will say is that the number of suplexes allowed him (at times; I need to see more to decide if this is endemic or just a couple of matches) to switch things up narratively and build to them in different ways. He could tease one earlier in a match, but then use a different one for a transition or to cement control for a time which let him pay off that initial one later. I'm much more interested in how he used the suplexes from match to match than the fact he had them, at least as it pertains to his earlier work before all the heavyweights started power bombing each other.

Been a while since I watched 70s Jumbo (and it was usually tags, can’t recall singles ones off the top of my head outside of the Billy Robinson matches), but I’m fairly sure the template he was going for was Dory vs Jack Brisco style. It might be an interesting exercise to compare transitions in typical Dory or Brisco matches to transitions in 70s Jumbo matches. The more I think about it, the more he was essentially a US NWA-style worker who happened to be Japanese. I don’t recall any nifty matwork from him and it doesn’t seem like he picked up much on this front from Robinson. 

[Matt D]

3 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Been a while since I watched 70s Jumbo (and it was usually tags, can’t recall singles ones off the top of my head outside of the Billy Robinson matches),

Figured out where I noticed it last:

1/29/82: Nick Bockwinkel/Pat O'Connor vs Jumbo/Baba: I'm sure I saw this years ago but I'm much more familiar with Jumbo now. Here he looked far younger than what I'm used to even though it was just seven years. I liked him in this structure, where O'Connor and Bock really tried to grind down and he was able to come back by unveiling his different suplexes throughout the match. My favorite bit in the whole match was O'Connor trying to headlock takeover Baba, being unable to, and muttering "Ah, you try it." to Bock before tagging him in. Baba was a force here but they did a good job, by using holds and takedowns of never quite letting him be unleashed until it was time for it. Between that and the bullying of Jumbo, it was measured and meticulous, but all in a good, smart way.

[JerryvonKramer]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

"hipsterism" (whatever the fuck that means ie nothing) 

It means when you talk about guys like Flair, Funk, Jumbo, etc as “boring” picks because they came high in previous polls or because you’ve been there and done it and are more excited by shiny new things.