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2 hours ago, elliott said:

I'm sorry if that came across above as flippant, it wasn't meant to . And I don't want to dismiss the idea of advocacy. But our project is a little different than just some critic making a list and telling everyone what it is. Our project is more about the discussion. So the place for advocacy is in the actual threads. 

I also can't just ignore the fact that this dudes idea of advocacy is leaving off Bob Dylan but ranking 1st an album that sold 10 million copes. Its a bit like leaving Ric Flair off your list because of visibility/reputation/whatever insane reasoning that has nothing to do with greatness and then putting Chris Jericho #1. 

eh, classic-rockism is a real thing that i'd be glad to take down a peg if i get the chance, though i do agree i'd be a bit more on board if he put something like guyville at #1

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haha, I had a feeling this approach would not be well-received! 

17 hours ago, elliott said:

I'm sorry if that came across above as flippant, it wasn't meant to . And I don't want to dismiss the idea of advocacy. But our project is a little different than just some critic making a list and telling everyone what it is. Our project is more about the discussion. So the place for advocacy is in the actual threads. 

I also can't just ignore the fact that this dudes idea of advocacy is leaving off Bob Dylan but ranking 1st an album that sold 10 million copes. Its a bit like leaving Ric Flair off your list because of visibility/reputation/whatever insane reasoning that has nothing to do with greatness and then putting Chris Jericho #1. 

I totally get what you mean here, and the approach you've laid out will likely be mine as well. But I do understand where Erlewine is coming from -- it's not that he doesn't think the Beastie Boys are popular enough, it's that he thinks they belong in the canon of "greatness" next to Dylan and the Beatles. He can use his power to emphasize that, rather than reinforcing views about Dylan that are already accepted.  

Just to give an example: in my opinion, modern New Japan has been sort of underappreciated in these circles, despite being commercially successful and being regarded highly elsewhere. That may be because the style is contrary to what most PWO posters appreciate, which is totally fair. But I could see the rationale for someone voting Tanahashi #1 to make the point that they think he's an elite worker who belongs in the canon. 

For this particular project, though, I agree that the better answer would be to advocate for our favorites in the threads and let the list come out as it will. 

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10 minutes ago, kid dracula said:

haha, I had a feeling this approach would not be well-received! 

I totally get what you mean here, and the approach you've laid out will likely be mine as well. But I do understand where Erlewine is coming from -- it's not that he doesn't think the Beastie Boys are popular enough, it's that he thinks they belong in the canon of "greatness" next to Dylan and the Beatles. He can use his power to emphasize that, rather than reinforcing views about Dylan that are already accepted.  

Just to give an example: in my opinion, modern New Japan has been sort of underappreciated in these circles, despite being commercially successful and being regarded highly elsewhere. That may be because the style is contrary to what most PWO posters appreciate, which is totally fair. But I could see the rationale for someone voting Tanahashi #1 to make the point that they think he's an elite worker who belongs in the canon. 

For this particular project, though, I agree that the better answer would be to advocate for our favorites in the threads and let the list come out as it will. 

 

That would be terrible rationale for voting Tanahashi #1 and I really hope no one is thinking like this. If someone thinks he's the best wrestler ever, they should vote for him #1. But to vote for him to like send a message to 15 people on PWO or whatever is not the way to approach this project. 

Something I think folks should keep in mind...no one really cares what your final list looks like. Look at this thread:

https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/34096-your-ballots/

That's how we handled publicly sharing ballots last time around. Its just a sea of lists. No one is going to notice or care if you left off wrestler X or rated wrestler Y in the top 10. Obviously if people want to draw attention to their lists in various ways: podcasts, separate run down posts, whatever folks are more likely to notice. Folks really care about their own list and the final list. So any messages someone tries to send by voting someone particularly high or leaving them off will fall on deaf ears unless you loudly make the case elsewhere. 

 

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i think the point is more that the overall list can be a useful tool to share with your friends and such - it's a way of letting them know "these are the wrestlers worth going back to watch".  When people have limited time and need to pick & choose, that counts for a lot.

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20 hours ago, PhilTLL said:

In that "reacclaiming the canon" is always going to be a concern on such projects, and that much like in GWE his vote was being averaged with many others, it's a novel approach. We already know that Ric Flair and Blonde On Blonde were pretty damn good and important.

That's my feeling as well. I sincerely doubt more than a voter or two could be swayed to construct the bulk of their ballot this way. And if a small minority can justify it I personally would have no problem with it. I'm more of the mindset where the very bottom of my ballot might get some votes in this direction (also punitive for some) but largely it's not an interesting way for me to participate.

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On 6/29/2021 at 3:46 PM, kid dracula said:

I read an interesting blog post today from the rock critic Stephen Thomas Erlewine, talking about his ballot for the Rolling Stone list of the top 500 albums ever. His position is basically that the critic's role in casting their ballot should be advocacy over accuracy. His #1 was Paul's Boutique, and he left the Beatles and Dylan off his list completely (even though he doesn't dispute their greatness or importance.)

Does anyone think this approach has any merit?

Here's the post, if anyone's interested: https://sterlewine.substack.com/p/rolling-stone-500-greatest-albums?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy

I don't think you're quite doing justice to his argument. He's saying that accuracy is impossible because things like importance and influence are nebulous and unquantifiable. His secondary point is that a poll of critics has the effect of establishing a canon, and a canon dominated by classic rock seems wrong in a world where rock and roll is increasingly on the fringes of popular culture (remember when Billie Eilish revealed she had never heard of Van Halen?). There's a potentially interesting parallel between that idea and the question of how relevant traditionally revered territory guys are to modern wrestling. Someone like Ric Flair will always have strong backing, but I can easily see guys like Harley Race and Ted DiBiase taking a massive hit. But the important thing to remember is that this isn't a high-profile critical undertaking. To the extent that a wrestling canon exists, this project's impact on it will be negligible at best, so strategic voting for the purpose of sending a message is unlikely to accomplish much if at all. Also, as has been noted, the real value is in the discussion of candidates rather than the actual list. Assigning too much importance to the final outcome is probably the biggest mistake someone can make.

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My take is while I’m excited for everyone else’s thoughts on the discussion and would love some good back and forth, at the end of the day, the master list means nothing to me past “this reveal is going to be super fun”. It will mean next to nothing outside our circle, just like how the last one was torn to pieces for not having Undertaker higher by the r/squaredcircle community. The list that matters to me is my own. This is a collective project to expand our views and have us watch new and interesting workers and form our own opinion on things on the matter. It’s a journey we are taking together, and, honestly, the end doesn’t even have to be the end. Make your list for you, not to try to impact the end standings.

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Don't know if this is been asked... is anybody going to be using a BIGLAV type ratings system for the 2026 BWE? Should we come up with something similar

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On 8/22/2021 at 6:50 AM, joeg said:

Don't know if this is been asked... is anybody going to be using a BIGLAV type ratings system for the 2026 BWE? Should we come up with something similar

I hope not!

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On 8/22/2021 at 11:50 AM, joeg said:

Don't know if this is been asked... is anybody going to be using a BIGLAV type ratings system for the 2026 BWE? Should we come up with something similar

Yeah me. I'm not committing myself to ranking them exactly how it turns out though. It's more just a useful thought exercise/documenting what makes each wrestler great in a systematic way.

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No mention of whether they used BIGLAV or not, but here's the first 24 inductees into the International Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame, which will be housed in the Times Union Center in Albany, New York:

Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Terry Funk, Giant Baba, Ed ‘Strangler’ Lewis, Mil Mascaras, Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Frank Gotch, Danny Hodge, Great Gama, Yusuf Ismail (the Terrible Turk, circa 1890s), Paul Pons, Rikidozan, Martin ‘Farmer’ Burns, George Hackenschmidt, Evan ‘Strangler’ Lewis, William Muldoon, Satoru Sayama, Antonio Inoki, Stanislaus Zbysko and Tatsumi Fujinami.

I thought Londos was a lock for these things, but they seem to be honouring the "shooters" of the pre-TV era. Disappointed there's no Killer Kowalski (pretty sure I'll be the high vote on him here). The ballot committee comprised Robert Bryla (Chair), Nathan Hatton, Mark Hewitt, Koji Miyamoto and Jimmy Wheeler if that helps :D (Bill Apter is a consultant, and JJ Dillon and "Irish" Davey O'Hannon are honorary trustees).

 

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7 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

No mention of whether they used BIGLAV or not, but here's the first 24 inductees into the International Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame, which will be housed in the Times Union Center in Albany, New York:

Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Terry Funk, Giant Baba, Ed ‘Strangler’ Lewis, Mil Mascaras, Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Frank Gotch, Danny Hodge, Great Gama, Yusuf Ismail (the Terrible Turk, circa 1890s), Paul Pons, Rikidozan, Martin ‘Farmer’ Burns, George Hackenschmidt, Evan ‘Strangler’ Lewis, William Muldoon, Satoru Sayama, Antonio Inoki, Stanislaus Zbysko and Tatsumi Fujinami.

I thought Londos was a lock for these things, but they seem to be honouring the "shooters" of the pre-TV era. Disappointed there's no Killer Kowalski (pretty sure I'll be the high vote on him here). The ballot committee comprised Robert Bryla (Chair), Nathan Hatton, Mark Hewitt, Koji Miyamoto and Jimmy Wheeler if that helps :D (Bill Apter is a consultant, and JJ Dillon and "Irish" Davey O'Hannon are honorary trustees).

 

Famous shooters like Mil Mascaras and Tatsumi Fujinami :)

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5 hours ago, elliott said:

Famous shooters like Mil Mascaras and Tatsumi Fujinami :)

You're breaking my balls here, elliott :)....I'll try again:
I thought Londos was a lock for these things, but of the inductees from before the television-era ie the 1950s, they seem to be honouring the "shooters".

Tough crowd around here...;)

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Haha sorry. Its just a weird list becuase you're right about the old school shooters point and then there's like Mil Mascaras & Tiger Mask & Fujnami. Sayama at least did UWF and Shooto so you can kinda make an argument for him. And Inoki had the Ali fight and all the different style fights.  It makes the lack of Londos & El Santo even weirder when they would go on to add Hogan & Flair. Its just like I have no idea what to make of that list. Everyone should just let Steve Yohe make the HOF hahaha

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1 hour ago, elliott said:

Everyone should just let Steve Yohe make the HOF hahaha

I second that. What a font of knowledge. Here's "Yohe's 'Greatest 100 Wrestling Stars' Project" from WrestlingClassics in 2013 http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003916 for anyone who hasn't seen it (page 5 has the final results - Thesz, Londos, Hogan, Lewis ,Gotch are the first five).

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