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Negro Casas vs Terry Funk


Rah

Terry Funk vs Negro Casas  

27 members have voted

  1. 1. Terry Funk vs Negro Casas

    • Terry Funk
      19
    • Negro Casas
      8


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There are a lot of things going on here. Part of it is that there's an incomplete canon with lucha; part of that is due to footage, but there are other factors too. Some of it is that it's just harder to judge someone outside of singles matches, especially when you have so many other bodies in the ring and generally a singular focus to trios matches that doesn't exist in standard tag matches, for instance. Some of it is just the sheer amount of footage we have for Negro Casas spanning decades. There are holes certainly, but it's absolutely overwhelming, especially when you consider that so much of it is weekly and in front of the same crowd. I argue that people should watch everything Buddy Rose does over a span of 2-3 years in front of the same Portland crowd but while that MAY be attainable, you can't do that with Casas and since he's not the guy anchoring the territory, you probably wouldn't have to anyway. Part of it is that the trios were the week to week matches so it's hard to really make them akin to something. Part of me wants to say that it's like watching Arn or Bret due studio/prelim matches every week to build up to a PPV or house show match that we happen to have. That's kind of a tough comparison for a #1 contender relative to the footage we have for Daniel Bryan or Ric Flair or what not.

Personally, I think watching Casas in a trios match is always worthwhile because he is one of the most present wrestlers we have footage of. He also almost always does something I've never seen him do before, in every match. I usually point that thing out in my reviews. It could be a reaction, something for the camera. It could be a move. It could be a spot. It could be bit of selling. It could be a taunt. It could be using the ref or one of his partners or his opponent in a unique way. But if you spend an entire match with your eye on Casas, you'll see all sorts of stuff that you're happier for having seen and yeah, at least one thing will be something you've probably never seen him do before. Where I lack and where I struggle with him, as opposed to someone like Rose or Bock (or Bret, sure) is that I don't have a great sense of his career. I can drop in and out and be entertained but I almost always lack some level of context. I have the same problem with Jim Breaks who is another guy who is always on and engaged and creatively in the moment.

I think someone should get credit for playing a supporting role in a trios match, but I also argue that what Casas does that makes him special is actually more than that.

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It's a large amount of footage, and sifting through it to find the good stuff, or simply catalogue it all, takes time. Especially if you're trying to watch the other matches on the shows as well. The reason we don't have a laundry list of every Casas match worth watching is because no one has dedicated the time towards making one. I personally have never had an experience watching weekly lucha in real time. I have either focused on a particular period of lucha I like, or scanned match-listings for match-ups that look interesting (and not just singles matches, for the record.) I have been taking a weekly approach with 00s lucha and the Tenay stuff, but my progress is slow.

I will be quite happy when we get the full picture of Casas as a worker, but again, this is not how people watch Terry Funk matches (to the best of my knowledge.) It seems to me that most people just watch random Funk matches. Funk footage is scattershot. He didn't work in the same building week after week, or for the same promotion, but he benefits greatly from the mentality that "I can pop on any random Funk match and I know he's going to be entertaining." I know Funk's body of work was a sore spot in the last poll, and that his defenders have built up a catalogue of work and more of his matches have emerged since 2016, but I don't feel as though people have presented The Complete Works of Terry Funk either, so why can't we judge Casas the performer vs. Funk the performer without worrying about the matches? They're both similar performers, that's why the comparison was made. There's not a single thing that Terry Funk can do that Casas can't do and vice versa. The caveat I would add is that Funk did it everywhere, the world over, while Casas only shone in Mexico. 

I don't really agree with Matt's career point. I think you can clearly see the shifts in Casas' career from rudo to tecnico, and back again, and young guy to veteran, etc. Breaks doesn't have a huge career arc unless you factor in winning and losing belts, and his slow aging process. I do think that his act developed over time and that the Breaks we're familiar with is later period Breaks and very showy. I have some early 70s Breaks where he is clearly a heel but not doing the full blown Crybaby act with people throwing dummies at him. I have a feeling that period of Breaks came during the Big Daddy era where Crabtree was trying to shake things up. But it's all conjecture until we can get access to the footage. 

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8 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I don't really agree with Matt's career point. I think you can clearly see the shifts in Casas' career from rudo to tecnico, and back again, and young guy to veteran, etc. Breaks doesn't have a huge career arc unless you factor in winning and losing belts, and his slow aging process. I do think that his act developed over time and that the Breaks we're familiar with is later period Breaks and very showy. I have some early 70s Breaks where he is clearly a heel but not doing the full blown Crybaby act with people throwing dummies at him. I have a feeling that period of Breaks came during the Big Daddy era where Crabtree was trying to shake things up. But it's all conjecture until we can get access to the footage. 

That was more about me and how I consumed Breaks matches than the available footage. Also, don’t shortchange the fact that even here, you are exceptional (meant in the best way) in your knowledge.

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I'm admittedly in some ways using Casas to make a larger point about how AJPW and AJW (and to a lesser extent, the NJ juniors) being chronicled so well in the late 90s-early 2000s gives them an advantage on a project like this, in the same way that I think long-time WWF/WWE wrestlers benefit over people who peaked in WCW or the territory era. It seemed to me like the best way to counter that would be to do a similar undertaking for wrestling that isn't 90s All Japan or AJW.  If I'm the one complaining about it, maybe I should at least try to do it.

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@Cien Caras for trios matches can do all that. When a company is good, it's really some of the best week to week tv with trios matches building up stories to lead to a big match.

I watched too much lucha in the last 10 years, where it's nothing but lazy almost nothing matches with rare exceptions. You are right though, there is a lot of value in trios match.

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We can hatchet job quite a broad career retrospective of Casas. Copying this over from WKO - this is just his 2008-2018:
 

Spoiler

Heavy Metal/Negro Casas/Shocker vs. El Hijo del Perro Aguayo/Terrible/Texano Jr., CMLL 05/16/08
Negro Casas vs. Blue Panther, CMLL 08/03/08
Panther/Shocker/Toscano vs Villano 5/Niebla/Negro, CMLL 01/16/09
Volador Jr., La Mascara, & Sagrado vs. Negro Casas, Heavy Metal, & Felino, CMLL 02/08/09
Blue Panther, Marco Corleone, & Mascara Dorada vs. Atlantis, Negro Casas, & Felino, CMLL 03/01/09
Negro Casas/Heavy Metal vs. La Sombra/Volador Jr., CMLL 02/13/09
Negro Casas vs. Mistico, CMLL 03/20/09
Negro Casas vs. Mistico, CMLL 03/28/09
Negro Casas vs. Jushin Liger, NJPW 5/5/10
Negro Casas vs. Charly Manson, CMLL 10/15/10
Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 4/24/11
Diamante, Hijo del Signo, Negro Casas vs. Ángel de Oro, Rey Escorpion, Último Guerrero, CMLL 6/10/11
Felino/Mr. Niebla/Negro Casas vs. Blue Panther/Jushin Lyger/Rush, CMLL 10/28/11
Blue Panther, Shocker, Super Porky vs Felino, Mr. Niebla, Negro Casas 11/11/11
Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 1/27/12
Mr. Niebla/Negro Casas/Volador Jr. vs. Blue Panther/La Máscara/La Sombra, CMLL 2/4/12
Negro Casas vs. La Sombra, 2/20/12
Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 3/2/12
Blue Panther/Marco Corleone/Valiente vs. Felino/Mr. Niebla/Negro Casas, CMLL 6/3/12
Angel del Oro vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 9/2/12
Negro Casas vs. Guerrero Maya Jr, CMLL 12/25/12
Negro Casas vs. Valiente, CMLL 2/4/13
Shocker/Blue Panther/Mascara Dorada vs. Negro Casas/Felino/ Mr. Niebla, CMLL 2/12/13
Ultimo Dragon vs. Negro Casas, Toryumon 4/13/13
Negro Navarro vs. Negro Casas, Chilanga Mask 5/19/13
Negro Casas vs. Mascara Dorada, CMLL 6/2/13
Maximo/Rush/Thunder vs. Mr. Aguila/Negro Casas/Polvora, CMLL 6/7/13
Negro Casas/Valiente/Stuka Jr. vs. Virus/Vangellys/Fuego, CMLL 6/14/13
lack Metal/Pegasso/Tritón vs. Bárbaro Cavernario/Espíritu Maligno/kándalo, CMLL Puebla 6/24/13
Rush/Rey Escorpion/Maximo vs. Negro Casas/Terrible/Shocker, CMLL 6/28/13
Rey Escorpion/Negro Casas/Averno vs. Blue Panther/Super Porky/Rush, CMLL 7/12/13
Negro Casas/Mr. Aguila/Rey Bucanero vs. Blue Panther/Rush/Maximo, CMLL 7/14/13
Blue Panther/Máximo/Rush vs. Averno/Mr. Niebla/Negro Casas, CMLL 8/12/13
Blue Panther/Negro Casas/Atlantis vs. Black Terry/Negro Navarro/Solar, CMLL 8/16/13
Blue Panther/Rush/Super Porky vs. Averno/Felino/Negro Casas, CMLL 8/17/13
Rush/Terrible/Vangellys vs. Shocker/Negros Casas/Valiente, CMLL 9/3/13
Negro Casas/Shocker/Terrible vs. Marco Corleone/Rush/Vangelis, CMLL 9/13/13
Blue Panther/Brazo de Oro/Negro Casas vs. Black Terry/Negro Navarro/Shu el Guerrero, CMLL 9/22/13
Shocker vs. Rush vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 11/11/13
Negro Casas vs. Rush, CMLL 11/22/13
Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 12/13/13
Máscara Púrpura/Negro Navarro/Volador Jr. vs Negro Casas/Oficial 911/Súper Nova, IWRG 12/22/13
Negro Casas vs. Titan, CMLL 1/3/14
Blue Panther/Black Panther/Cachorro vs. Negro Casas/Puma King/Tiger Kid, CMLL 1/11/14
Blue Panther/Black Panther/Cachorro vs. Negro Casas/Puma/Tiger, CMLL 1/14/14
Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 1/21/14
Atlantis/Delta/Guerrero Maya Jr. vs. Negro Casas/Tiger/Puma, CMLL 1/26/14
Atlantis vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 1/27/14
Rush/Marco Corleone/La Mascara vs. Negro Casas/Shocker/Ripper, CMLL 3/28/14
Virus/Cachorro/Hechicero vs. Negro Casas/Cavernario/Dragon Lee, CMLL 5/23/14
Negro Casas/Shocker vs. Rush/La Sombra, CMLL 7/18/14
Rush vs. Negro Casas, CMLL 8/1/14
Negro Casas vs. Maximo, CMLL 1/11/15
Negro Casas & Shocker vs. La Mascara & La Sombra, CMLL 2/6/15
Negro Casas vs. Dragon Lee, CMLL 5/22/15
Negro Casas vs. Hechicero, Arena Coliseo Monterrey 4/24/16
Negro Casas vs. Dragon Lee, CMLL 6/26/17
Negro Casas vs. Aramis, Lucha Memes 3/11/18
Negro Casas vs. Soberano Jr, CMLL 5/11/18
Negro Casas vs. Virus, Lucha Memes 10/21/18



As you can see, it gets more detailed once there was more focus on weekly lucha. That's a litany of matches where Casas is doing some good stuff across a spectrum of styles despite being booked in with some terrible workers/programmes. Through a lot of this he injects this larger than life charisma while still factoring in these little touches (how his body and ego slowly breaks down across his feud with Rush).  I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that we can work between the cracks and conclude for the years there isn't a comprehensive list (or even much coverage) that, most probably, Casas was working at high quality. He isn't spoken of in as much detail, or as evaluated as much as Terry but that's an issue of fan interest more than Casas' output. Terry popped up in a lot of places that have extensive taping, viewership and, most importantly, discussion (some of which in real time).

I don't want to sound like Funk's case is benefited solely by this (a lesser worker would have been shown up) but it is certainly propped up by that - as with a lot of the other heralded greats (Flair/Bryan). Lou Thesz and Le Petit Prince are most likely not going to rank as high as they would if they had more matches available to us. Lucha guys have a massive mountain to climb if we are to think of someone as great because of how much output they have or how long their output is. For better or worse, there is a sentiment that singles matches are of higher calibre than trios and that does many a disservice, especially when their case could or should be made on a weekly basis as opposed to Great Match Theory (Virus and Black Terry). 

If Matt D, or anyone else, can go through a few months and shed some light on unknown Casas that would be swell. There are 1049 matches on Youtube from 1986 all until two days ago. Large swathes of it are trios with no direct endgame but it's all there and ready for us to view.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The apuesta is a disappointment. 

Do you think it could have been better if they had gone for a 2/3 fall structure instead of the single? It felt a little under-dramatic as far as (Casas) hair matches go.

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Absolutely. It had the potential to be an excellent match if they'd worked 2/3 falls. It seems a lot of the matches on that show were rushed. The tag title match was shorter than usual, but they still made it work. Removing the 2/3 falls robs you of the drama that comes from going down 1-0, making your comeback, etc. You basically have to go straight into a tercera caida style fall where hoping you get the ebb and flow right and produce some exciting nearfalls. Unfortunately, they didn't quite nail it. Casas wasn't aggressive enough, and they didn't really pace the fall in a dramatic or compelling way. 

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