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Ultimo Dragon vs Randy Orton

Ultimo Dragon vs Randy Orton  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Who's better?

    • Ultimo Dragon
      7
    • Randy Orton
      6


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#169 vs #198 from last time. Two guys with generally good reputations, except here, where their nominee threads were largely negative. Career WWE worker vs a guy who had successful runs in Japan, Mexico and the United States but flopped, literally and figuratively, in WWE.

Dragon thread
Orton Thread

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On first brush with thinking on this... Orton strikes me as a guy who is good when he wants to be but doesn't always want to be and Ultimo strikes me as a guy who always wants to be good but doesn't always get what he wants.

I'm not sure that will hold up under more thought. Neither guy has a real shot at my list, but gun to my head I probably prefer Ultimo in theory, but think Orton is a better wrestler.

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Definitely Ultimo. He's definitely not as a good as juniors/cruisers like Rey, Liger, or Otani, but he still has several matches that I enjoy. He's not a lock, but he still has a shot at making my ballot. Orton on the other hand is one of my least favorite wrestlers. Terrific mechanics but just so rarely can make anything he does interesting. Not sure if it's a lack of work ethic, blandness, or both, but he just doesn't do much for me.

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There are more Orton matches than Ultimo matches that I enjoy so I'll go with Orton.  I have no idea if Orton could make my top 100, but I am higher on him than most people and might one day try to make the case for him.  

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There has to be more high end Orton matches than Ultimo. And probably more decent mid card or TV matches as well. Ultimo is a guy I thought was awesome as a kid and then grew up and realized he was sloppy as hell and he was just a pure MOVEZ guy. Which can certainly be fun and definitely was for video games.

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What are high end Orton matches? VS Foley in Foley's signature match? VS Cesaro, Bryan, or Harper in great TV matches that succeed 85% because of his opponent? The Evolution VS Shield match? I really like all of these, none of them convince me Orton has better high end performances than Ultimo.

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Never thought of Dragon as a sloppy worker myself. But if you're going to knock Orton for being second best in most of his greatest matches then you have to do the same for Dragon, right? What even is his best performance, the 1996 PPV against Mysterio?

I think if I saw that a wrestler I really liked was matched up with Dragon, I'd be excited to watch it. If I saw a wrestler I liked matched up with Orton, I'd be curious but I wouldn't necessarily expect something good.

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I would say that or the 2015 match VS Sasuke off the top of my head. But Ultimo was absolutely a dance partner and not someone who brought greatness out of lesser opponents, I would never make that argument. At his best he was a better dance partner than Orton though for my money. It's an interesting comparison, now I can't help but wonder what a match between the two would look like.

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4 hours ago, Clayton Jones said:

What are high end Orton matches? VS Foley in Foley's signature match? VS Cesaro, Bryan, or Harper in great TV matches that succeed 85% because of his opponent? The Evolution VS Shield match? I really like all of these, none of them convince me Orton has better high end performances than Ultimo.

Orton Vs Christian over the limit 2011 would be my pick for a great, high end Orton match that’s not 85% down to his opponent.

Orton and Jeff Hardy’s HIAC match is one of my favourite Orton performances in recent years.

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That HIAC match is one I went into with minimal expectations, but it ended up being bizarrely great. That moment where Orton went after Hardy's ear lopes with a screwdriver was more memorable than the last 3 years of HIAC combined

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Rey vs Randy Orton, Smackdown 7th April 2006

It's my go-to match to show what a motivated Orton looks like. Sure, Rey was on a hit streak in 2006 but this match being great is mostly down to Orton

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10 hours ago, cad said:

Never thought of Dragon as a sloppy worker myself. But if you're going to knock Orton for being second best in most of his greatest matches then you have to do the same for Dragon, right? What even is his best performance, the 1996 PPV against Mysterio?

I think if I saw that a wrestler I really liked was matched up with Dragon, I'd be excited to watch it. If I saw a wrestler I liked matched up with Orton, I'd be curious but I wouldn't necessarily expect something good.

I'm not saying he's a Super Calo, but he has had a lot of nights where he seemed a stone's throw away from being a Super Calo

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Those are some good recommendations for Randy, I always forget about the Christian feud even though both guys bring it up constantly as among their best work. I have no recollection of that Rey match and I'm sure it's awesome. And I definitely haven't seen the Hardy match. I guess i just worked myself into a shoot and am going to add Orton to my guys under consideration, even though he's going to be a long long shot.

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My description of Orton is he has the good performances over a long time period that he basically is a lock for a top 200 if you are giving him a chance. Put putting him in your top 100 just... looks wrong. 

 

I still have him Ultimo personally. 

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I'm probably abnormally high on the Cena match at Summerslam 2007. Beyond that, though...yeesh.

There's a famous quote from Moneyball: "If he's a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good?" That's Orton in a nutshell. His swing is mechanically perfect, but his WAR is barely above replacement level. If you made a list of the top 100 WWE matches of the 21st century, how many Orton matches would be on it? Three? It almost certainly wouldn't be double digits. You'd expect way more from a guy who's been a pushed main eventer for two decades at a time when WWE has never been more loaded with talent and in-ring performance has never been more important. It'd be one thing if he rarely delivered a classic but could always be counted on to produce at a certain level, but he's also responsible for a fair number of outright stink bombs. Having bad matches with Bray Wyatt isn't something I'd hold against someone. What I will hold against him is having matches that are bad even by Bray Wyatt standards. As for Ultimo, he at least got over in multiple promotions and deserves some credit as an innovator.

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