Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only
Sign in to follow this  
elliott

Stock Rising/Stock Falling

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Troyvang said:

Rising: Kenya Kobashi

i realize he’s accepted as one of the greatest of all time, but I hadn’t watched a match of his prior to 6 months ago. He now may be my favorite wrestler to watch just with everything he does in the ring. I know this isn’t exactly new news to most, but it is for me, haha

Hey cool! Some of the first puro matches I saw had Kobashi and he helped hook me for life. What have you been watching?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tim Cooke said:

1980 - 1984.  Wasn't a great period for All Japan anyway but couldn't find anything that really moved me.  Could also be too hard on him right now as well.

This is textbook selection bias and a sample size issue. I'd wager when you contextualize the whole career from 75-92 the 80-84 period will remain the least exciting but there are still some excellent matches to be found. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't speak for Tim but I don't think its unreasonable to slightly fault a guy if you find nearly 1/4th of his career in the middle of what is theoretically his prime to be on the disappointing side. 80-84 isn't an insignificant length of time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, elliott said:

Hey cool! Some of the first puro matches I saw had Kobashi and he helped hook me for life. What have you been watching?

Kind of a varied mix, but matches with Hanson, Williams, Misawa and Takiyama stand out to me especially. Im just loving seeing all this new stuff right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Troyvang said:

Kind of a varied mix, but matches with Hanson, Williams, Misawa and Takiyama stand out to me especially. Im just loving seeing all this new stuff right now.

 

Have you watched Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Can Am Express yet? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kobashi/Kikuchi vs CanAm Express is special, man. Crowd is just going apeshit, Kikuchi is just an unbelievable underdog and Furnas is doing some inhuman shit through and through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its one of the first few Japanese matches I saw. The old Joined in Progress video thats just the last 10-12 minutes. No context whatsoever and that crowd pulled me in immediately and then the work hooked me forever. Still one of my favorites ever. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Shrike02 said:

This is textbook selection bias and a sample size issue. I'd wager when you contextualize the whole career from 75-92 the 80-84 period will remain the least exciting but there are still some excellent matches to be found. 

I've watched almost every Jumbo single match on tape.  Think I have seen probably 60-70% of his tags/trios match. 

This isn't selection bias.  This is saying a guy in my top 5 may go down to 10-11 because of a very underwhelming four year period.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rising:

John Tenta - wasn't on my ballot in 2016, but he's got a very good shot this time. Rewatching the Summerslam 90 match made me realise just how great it is, it's a proper big time main event even with it's non-definite finish. He's not going to be my highest superheavyweight (Vader, Henry and Blackwell are all currently above him), but he's a really great details wrestler, and that's something I always appreciate. He knows how to sell to maximise both his opponent's offence but also maintain his aura, where he's established that he's not easy to knock down, but he sells babyface offence like it MIGHT do. 

Steve Grey - had him too low last time (95), he's a great babyface fire worker, which is one of my favourite kinds of wrestler, and giving him a deeper dive is already proving I needed to watch more. WoS guys in general are probably trending upwards, and I want to have a deeper dive into Pat Roach, who I had at 86 last time, because I want to bang the gong for him in 2026

Falling:

Ric Flair - my #11 last time, and I felt that was because I couldn't really have him any lower, and that was me giving into his reputation. Already I look at guys I had below him (Funk, Bock, Steamboat, Misawa) who I think are better, and I can see him dropping into the 20s this time around

Kevin von Erich - look, I love Kevin. He's my favourite von Erich and I think he's awesome. Pure fight, all action, just a lot of fun to watch. But I had him at #24 last time, which is insane in hindsight. That's 4 places higher than Tito, and as a pure fire babyface I've got to admit Tito is better. I think I let my heart overrule my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/30/2021 at 8:29 PM, elliott said:

 

Have you watched Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Can Am Express yet? 

 

I have watched this one and absolutely loved it. I only really knew Can/Am from their brief WWF stint and they blew me away, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/19/2021 at 12:23 PM, Troyvang said:

I have watched this one and absolutely loved it. I only really knew Can/Am from their brief WWF stint and they blew me away, too.

There's a handheld match from June 1991 between these two teams that is amazing as well that I'd highly recommend. It doesn't have the magical crowd, but the work is at a high level. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnSXXP_uSQ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are going to feel somewhat weird, but watching through the late 83/early 84 Portland set has been... illuminating.

Stock Up: Nobody that really has a case to make this list. Brett Sawyer is good all over that set, and so is Fidel Sierra, but both are "wrestlers who probably end up in my top 200" then players for my top 100 as of this moment. Amusingly, Billy Jack Haynes was a real eye opener in that section, to the point were I think if he wasn't a headcase, he'd probably be remembered as the second best of the "meathead babyfaces" next to Hogan. 

Stock Down: Buddy Rose. It feels weird typing that, but there it is. That isn't to say I'm not high on Buddy, he still has a really good chance at my top 10. But his babyface work in 83/84 actively took him from someone I thought was a legitimate threat for my No.1, to a guy I have a hard time imaging stays in the top 5. I flat out think he wasn't a very compelling babyface, and what felt like it should have been an amazing time in Portland (Rip Oliver's Clan with The Assassin and Dynamite Kid against Buddy, Hennig, and Haynes) left me cold so much I literally am putting down the set and moving on to watch other stuff. It felt like the entire territory is melting down in what should be it's best run since Martel and Piper were around. I always thought the debate for me is who is higher, Bockwinkel or Rose. After watching a large portion of both guys work on tape, I think the answer is clear as day for Bock. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, El Dragon said:

These are going to feel somewhat weird, but watching through the late 83/early 84 Portland set has been... illuminating.

Stock Up: Nobody that really has a case to make this list. Brett Sawyer is good all over that set, and so is Fidel Sierra, but both are "wrestlers who probably end up in my top 200" then players for my top 100 as of this moment. Amusingly, Billy Jack Haynes was a real eye opener in that section, to the point were I think if he wasn't a headcase, he'd probably be remembered as the second best of the "meathead babyfaces" next to Hogan. 

Stock Down: Buddy Rose. It feels weird typing that, but there it is. That isn't to say I'm not high on Buddy, he still has a really good chance at my top 10. But his babyface work in 83/84 actively took him from someone I thought was a legitimate threat for my No.1, to a guy I have a hard time imaging stays in the top 5. I flat out think he wasn't a very compelling babyface, and what felt like it should have been an amazing time in Portland (Rip Oliver's Clan with The Assassin and Dynamite Kid against Buddy, Hennig, and Haynes) left me cold so much I literally am putting down the set and moving on to watch other stuff. It felt like the entire territory is melting down in what should be it's best run since Martel and Piper were around. I always thought the debate for me is who is higher, Bockwinkel or Rose. After watching a large portion of both guys work on tape, I think the answer is clear as day for Bock. 

 

This is fascinating to me because I thought the Buddy/Hennig/Hayes vs Rip Oliver & Friends was my favorite part of the set. I loved all of those matches. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somehow its been 6 months since we last did this. Figured with a year down it might be time for a check in. Who are some stock rising/falling folks for you at this point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stock Up:

Nick Bockwinkel: The guy just gets it and seems to get the best out of whatever situation he is in. The matches I watched recently that impressed me included a brawl with Hansen and the JYD matches in Houston. I had him outside the top 15 but feels like a top 10 lock today. 
 

Roddy Piper: I might have rose-colored glasses here but Piper just works for me, is never boring, and keeps me focused on the story of the match. You can send me a dozen counter examples and I will probably like those. 
 

Itzuki Yamazaki: Granted in my current shallow dive there seem to be only 50 candidates on the opposing side, but goddamn did the Jumping Bomb Angels rule. She is Great at garnering sympathy, conveying desperation, just a great performer. Tateno needs a nomination too. 
 

Sami Zayn: His recent work is really bolstering his case in my view. Spot on and entertaining. 
 

Gino Hernandez: He really special heel charisma and his really smart and creative. He’s standing opposed to Scott Casey and Kabuki and the crowd is just hating him. It looks like he could show some fire based on this clip that I saw against Tully. I never regret watching. 
 

Stock Down

Arn Anderson: This pendulum might swing back again, but I feel like Arn benefits from some factors that feel extraneous (promo, JCP bump) and his holes get overlooked. 
 

Steve Grey: I think he’s great, but I had him awfully high on my draft and realized it was too high when I did the preference revealer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stock Up:

Riki Choshu: One of my favourite discoveries in the last couple years with an aura matched by very few others. Someone who forced a change in style for both major puro promotions in the 80s. Mechanically, it's also impressive just how many great matches and performances he has with a relatively limited move-set. Could very well end up being my highest NJPW guy.

Jun Akiyama: Was great from his rookie year in 1992, and is still great as a veteran in 2022. That's 30 years with few breaks in between, and most of it being available to watch. I expect him to be flirting with the top spot come 2026

Yoshiaki Fujiwara: If we're restricting GWE to just input and individual performances, he's probably the best ever. The man's been wrestling like an old man for the past 40 years or so and is still capable of greatness depending on the setting and opponent/s

Mick Foley: Greatest hardcore wrestler of all time? Probably. The best wrestler during WWF's Attitude Era? Pretty much. Just consistently great across nearly 2 decades in all kinds of settings and opponents.

John Cena: I starting watching wrestling around the middle of 2007 and missed the best parts of his world title reigns, along with arguably the most vicious and versatile work of his career. Some guys just aren't appreciated as great during their time as an active competitor, and Cena might be the best example of that. Probably won't rank super high for me (I've always found him awkward in how he moves in the ring) but he deserves a spot in the top 100.

Pat Patterson & Sangre Chicana: These two are a special case where I've seen enough of them to know I love them, but not enough to feel confident ranking them alongside the greats who we have far more footage of during their peaks. Regardless, I'm fairly optimistic about both and look forward to any more tape of theirs I come across.

Stock Down:

AJ Styles: He'll still place highly for me, but it's clear looking back at his early 2000s work that his style just doesn't age well in comparison to the likes of Danielson, Low-Ki, Joe, Punk, etc. Also suffers from having stuck in a bad promotion for so long; while it is impressive to still be great in spite of bad booking and awful circumstances, he has contemporaries who didn't suffer like this for so long, and as a result, have a greater volume of quality work to their names.

Chris Benoit: This seems more a case of my tastes having changed overtime. Still a great technical wrestler, but his peak work just doesn't get me invested like it once did. Compared to someone like Eddie Guerrero, who has the emotion and character work to go with the work rate, and I definitely know who I'd rather spend my time seeking out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up:

Jun Akiyama: starting to look like a legit #1 contender for me. Peak longevity, consistency, adaptability, and variety candidate.

Andre the Giant: digging into his French footage is making me feel like I'm going to be a "how high is too high?" Andre voter

Yuki Ishikawa: climbing from top half candidate to top quarter. 

Devil Masami: has had a trajectory in my first year very similar to Akiyama, where she pops back up constantly and is always so damn good

Jack Brisco: great champion, great tag wrestler, great TV studio wrestler, great against Inoki

Psicosis: one of those guys that I didn't have a super strong idea what I was going to do with going in but I was hopeful. So far he hasn't disappointed me and falls into the "makes the most of every opportunity" category that I highly value

Kyoko Inoue: in kind of similar territory as Psicosis only I didn't really expect to rank her. Thus far though I'm realizing she has more depth and more high end matches than I was giving her credit for.

Mark Rocco: problematic for certain, by no means a lock, but Rocco at his best is an all-timer and has a compelling case to be made

Down: 

Aja Kong: Aja is great, I will vote her high, she's just not the women's GOAT I once thought she was

Mikey Whipwreck: kind of falls in that Psicosis/Kyoko territory but went the opposite way on my first round with him. Still going to watch more but I'm having a harder time seeing it

WALTER: man I love WALTER and would love to have him as a more modern guy who makes my list. But dude why you gotta chop the ring post so many damn matches. Why. I think his NXTUK time has helped but recycles too many sequences in general when watching with some scrutiny. Hopefully I feel differently next round with him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up:

Tiger Mask: I had already gone through a fair chunk of his career but seeing his short-lived UWF 1.0. stint has really brightened his case for me. Legit world-class striker and always seems to deliver his end of any match he's in, even when wrestling random World of Sport and American job guys. He hasn't really ever had a bad match that was because of him alone.

Yoshinari Ogawa: Legitimately half-carrying NOAH's Jr division at points from his singles and tag work. Every year has him somehow pull out a bunch of pretty solid matches out of his hat despite his neck injury and age. Looking at his older stuff, I keep finding great bit-part roles out of him despite being with guys who should theoretically just completely overshadow him. I think seeing him having a great exchange with a young rookie Kanemaru in a 6-man tag with the likes of Kobashi and Akiyama being around says a lot about how well polished a wrestler he is beyond the moves.

Kendo Kashin: His modern work is mostly dire but I'm actually half-shocked by how great he was when he gave a damn. He was never anyone I'd say would be full of hidden gems but his ability to play a prick spoiler heel that can steal matches away in a blink of a eye is a very entertaining gimmick for the time. Pair that up with a strong rookie career before the Kashin gimmick gets set up and a fairly good Muto-era AJPW run (when it matters) and I think there's a lot more discussion about the guy being on here than you think. It helps that he can carry matches that shouldn't be even worth a sniff into something half-decent. 

Masakatsu Funaki: A true master of the sub-10 minute match, but has shown with his current NOAH National stint that he can still go pretty great for his age, combined with a lot of simple, smart technical wrestling alongside some smooth, stiff strikes. It helps that his format is a breath of fresh air compared to the "epic" format that's grown stale immensely over the years.

 

Down:

Satoshi Kojima: While I still think Koji has a decent enough career, his limitations when it comes to structuring matches and carrying individuals become really clear after a while. He can't get truly great matches from good opponents, and he's always going back on his old, inconsistent selling days as more than a clutch than anything else. Him getting pumped up for a comeback is pretty cool the first time you've seen it, but he does this way too often to be of any novelty.  

Yoshihiro Takayama: This is mostly referring to his UWF work, which is.....kinda dire in places. He's consistently the weaker man of whoever he's wrestling with and unless he's paired with someone who can drag a great match out of him, his sloppy strikes and downright clunky motions at points make him someone who is mostly having alright but very middling matches, even all the way up to the post-NJPW/WAR invasion angles. Him getting jobbed out to Jado was a definite low-point, as was him getting legit potato'd by a angry Bad News.

Trevor Murdoch: Despite a fairly good title chase for the NWA title, his actual run was shockingly bad and he just struggled to get a actual good match against anyone in particular. His limitations are very overt and giving him the main event scene didn't help things at all. Maybe it's just NWA's mostly shoddy roster but there was definitely a lot of issues in terms of actually having a match that looked like it mattered.

Rusher Kimura: I still don't get the hype around this guy and watching more of his supposed "prime" just makes me even more confused. He's a good brawler for the time but his matches against some top-notch talent like Jumbo and co are almost always underwhelming and frankly boring in places. He's benefited from his reputation as a bloody cage fighter a ton but the matches that are still intact don't show anything that hasn't been surpassed a dozen or so times already. I feel like him being this legendary super performer is mostly because of hype and him being paired with guys like Mighty Inoue and Momota, who were actually fairly talented beyond their more-well known comedy leanings. Either way, I don't get it.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Clayton Jones said:

Up:

Jun Akiyama: starting to look like a legit #1 contender for me. Peak longevity, consistency, adaptability, and variety candidate.

Devil Masami: has had a trajectory in my first year very similar to Akiyama, where she pops back up constantly and is always so damn good

Love to see it. Devil is definitely a #1 contender. She checks any box you can come up with. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stock Up: 

CM Punk - How could his stock not rise? He's returned after 7 years away, in his 40s, to have a great run where he's not only a top star in a hot promotion, but one of the best workers on the show too.  

Jon Moxley - I have a GWE rule that if someone wins my WOTY, they're on my list, and so far in 2022, the year of the bloodbaths, Moxley is my WOTY.  The guy has been tremendous since returning from rehab.

Hangman Page - He had no shot for me of making my list six months ago, but since then he's just been on an absolute tear of big performances in big matches during what could be the defining run of his career.  4 more years of this and he'll be on my list for sure.

Bianca Belair - My favourite act in WWE, really enjoyed her feud with Becky capped off my a great match at Wrestlemania.

Ilja Dragunov - Been meaning to nominate him for a while, but I've been a fan of him since the wXw days and I think he's having one of the better title runs of anyone in 2022.

Alex Shelley - LOVE LOVE LOVE the Alex Shelley veteran run on the indies and Impact.  

Miro - Still a far way off being on my list, but I enjoyed 2021 Miro more than at any point of his career.

AJW Roster - I've been digging through some early 90s joshi for the first time ever in recent months so the likes of Kong, Bull, Hokuto, Toyota and Yamada have gone from not being on my list to likely all being on my list.  

Stock Down: 

Roman Reigns - I like Roman and I enjoyed the first year of the Tribal Chief run, but I don't think I've enjoyed a match of his since the Summerslam match with Cena.  I cannot ignore that he's had yet another terrible, derivative series of matches with Lesnar including another stinker of a main event at Wrestlemania.  I don't feel like what's coming down the pike in 2022 will turn me around on him soon.

Gunther - Not dipping by a huge amount, but I was someone that would have been pushing Walter for top 20 and I just don't think he'll be adding to that case as much now he's lost his aura a bit and working on the main roster where he's not gonna be a top guy on his brand anymore.

Sasha Banks - Even before the story of last week broke, I feel like Sasha had had a quiet six months for WWE and a tag team run with Naomi wasn't going to add much to her case.  Now she's in the doghouse who knows how long it'll be before we get to see big opportunities for her again in wrestling.

Almost every modern male Japanese wrestler - What can I say, clap crowd era Japan is the last thing I want to watch these days so they're all naturally moving down the list

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×