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NintendoLogic

2021 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

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Kurt Angle was always going to get in no matter what just on the fact that other wrestlers are going to vote for someone with his credentials. Dave pretty much said as much when saying older wrestlers especially liked Kurt because having a gold medalist in made wrestling seem more legit. 

 

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38 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Kurt Angle was always going to get in no matter what just on the fact that other wrestlers are going to vote for someone with his credentials. Dave pretty much said as much when saying older wrestlers especially liked Kurt because having a gold medalist in made wrestling seem more legit. 

 

Similar deal with Brock right?

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6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Similar deal with Brock right?

Pretty much, yeah. Having a pro wrestler go into UFC and win the title (and then come back to wrestling again) will win you a ton of votes. 

Funny enough I think Suzuki gets the same treatment. I won't argue he belongs in every HOF possible, but a lot of his appeal seems to come from being a MMA pioneer/legend who crossed over to pro wrestling. 

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1 hour ago, Loss said:

It's funny you say that because it feels like one of the problems the WON HOF has is that pretty much everyone who should be in was already inducted years ago.

That's probably true for the US, Canada and Japan (except the occasional historical candidate that gets reevaluated due to new information popping up), but other places? Mexico voters for a decade are complaining about the log jam due to having too many valid candidates that the votes disperse too much and I am sure that there enough European (and probably people from other less spotlighted regions of the world) people that belong in if the same level of information would be widely available as it is for NA and Japan and would get voted for if there would not be a generic "rest of the world category". With all the footage that has popped up for example, it is clear that there was a hot wrestling scene in France in the 1950ies and 60ies.

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See also UK fans having a collective fit every time Big Daddy gets passed over (which isn't helped by Dave constantly trolling them over it).

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1 hour ago, sek69 said:

See also UK fans having a collective fit every time Big Daddy gets passed over (which isn't helped by Dave constantly trolling them over it).

Hey! Do not group us UK fans into the same category. That's, like, racist or something. 

Trolling Big Daddy supporters is a lot of fun to be fair. I get why Dave participates in it all the time. 

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Also I'm surprised at the pushback on Don Owen. He always struck me more as a "why hasn't he been voted in yet" guy. Anyone who was able to promote for decades and be one of the last territories to give up the ghost seems like that would be enough for HOF status. Portland was never the sexiest territory, but they were pioneers with getting wrestling on TV regularly and was able to have pretty consistent business until the Vincedozer eventually came for everyone.

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11 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Also I'm surprised at the pushback on Don Owen. He always struck me more as a "why hasn't he been voted in yet" guy. Anyone who was able to promote for decades and be one of the last territories to give up the ghost seems like that would be enough for HOF status. Portland was never the sexiest territory, but they were pioneers with getting wrestling on TV regularly and was able to have pretty consistent business until the Vincedozer eventually came for everyone.

The man inherited a monopoly from his father, who stole it from Ted Thye, in a remote part of the country that no one cared about (sorry Oregonians). If you consider the context, it's actually not that difficult to have sustainable business for a long time. Anyway, despite the total lack of competition, he didn't have a single HOF-level year in all those decades of promoting. Factually. I see that as a negative. He's never top 5 or even top 10 for any of those years. So, literally, it's an induction for sustainable mediocrity. The wrestler equivalent would be to induct a guy or girl who wrestled for decades but was never a draw or a great worker. I'm not aware of any HOFers who fit that description. 

FWIW, I see no one disagreeing that he's the weakest promoter to make it into the hall. Dave has admitted that with his induction the bar has been considerably lowered. I also see no one offering me an alternative name when I ask if he's the weakest inductee in general. 

Anyway, what's done is done. Important to now limit the damage by getting every promoter ahead of him (long list) in as soon as possible. 

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Yeah, simply remaining in business isn't that much of an accomplishment when you're a member of a cartel that insulates you from any real competition. I see Owen as the promoter equivalent of Randy Orton: decades of mid-level consistency but none of the highlights you expect from a true HOFer.

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4 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Yeah, simply remaining in business isn't that much of an accomplishment when you're a member of a cartel that insulates you from any real competition.

I mean that would also imply no one who ever promoted under the NWA banner is HOF eligible because they would routinely send folks in to crush any outlaw promotions. 

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14 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I mean that would also imply no one who ever promoted under the NWA banner is HOF eligible because they would routinely send folks in to crush any outlaw promotions. 

Unless they had HOF-level years, which they did. Every single HOF promoter from the NWA era had strong years somewhere - Crockett Sr, Jerry Jarrett, Eddie Graham, etc, etc. Except Don Owen. 

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Comparing Owen to a wrestler who was never a draw or a good worker seems unfair. If Owen is such a bad candidate why did people vote for him? And since when did having a sustainable business model become mediocre? 
 

I’d also like to know how Rocco came so close to making it in. If Portland wrestling is considered mediocre then how can Rocco have a leg to stand on?

 

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If Don Owen is in the Hall of Fame for promoting Portland, shouldn't Buddy Rose be getting reconsidered for being the best wrestler and biggest star of that territory? He won't and I don't really think he should, but I also don't think Don Owen should be in the hall for longevity and the foresight to own the building they shot TV in. 

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Why shouldn't the Hall reward longevity? What exactly is wrong with surviving as a promoter for 30 or 40 years? Does this mean the Joint Promotions promoters, the German promoters, and the Paris promoters weren't successful because they ran smaller venues? How can the fact that Owen owned the building his TV show was shot in, and had one of the longest running television shows in wrestling history, be a negative?

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2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Why shouldn't the Hall reward longevity? What exactly is wrong with surviving as a promoter for 30 or 40 years? Does this mean the Joint Promotions promoters, the German promoters, and the Paris promoters weren't successful because they ran smaller venues? How can the fact that Owen owned the building his TV show was shot in, and had one of the longest running television shows in wrestling history, be a negative?

On the ballot Dave sends out he explicitly states that longevity, alone, is meaningless. Longevity only counts for something if you're on top and Portland was never a top territory. So, by the rules, you shouldn't reward longevity for the sake of longevity. 

Rocco is considered by some voters, Dave included, to be one of the great smaller wrestlers of his generation. I'm not sold on him either, but I see it. He ain't Don Owen. Owen is currently being discussed on Dave's board and Mike Sempervive, one of his biggest simps, can only defend him via ad-hominem attacks - that says ALOT to me. Again - I really don't want to sound like a sore loser. It is what it is and I hope to never repeat it.  

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All right, then. I can't understand Dave's mentality at all. In fact,  I do not understand why Okada was a slam dunk when business in Japan is rubbish compared to what it used to be. Okada was on top of a rubbish heap? Truly worthy. 

Obviously, some folks voted for Owen. Can anyone explain why? 

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31 minutes ago, Reel said:

Longevity and owning the building aren't negatives, but they're pretty much his entire argument. 

Dave's whole mentality seems to be that if you're a ball club that won a whole lot of games and some division tiles, you're not HOF worthy if you didn't win a championship. I get that for the most part, but when you times limited success  by 10, or 20, or 30, or 40, that's a long time to be in business. How long do we think NOAH, ROH, TNA or AEW will last? 

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Re why did people vote for him, Portland nostalgia from folks with platforms - Matt Farmer, Sempervive, Jim Valley, etc - helped Owen a lot. Without that, he doesn't get close. The tape availability, compared to other territories, helped too. He was a nice guy, well respected by the boys (Dave brought this up) due to the good pay days. Based on the categories (drawing power, longevity on top, in-ring quality, positive historic sig) I can't tell you why he's in. Love for folks who voted for him to rationalize it based on the categories.

Not sure comparing a mid-card solid, well liked guy, with a division title winner works. Owen was never a top-10 promoter remember. Maybe someone from the NBA who consistently makes the playoffs but never gets past the 1st round? Owen was a top-16 promoter sometimes. Do we have any NBA HOFers who fit this description?   

 

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Owen is in because he ran a territory people know about and have seen and we're getting to a point where that is enough for a good chunk of people. How many major territory promoters aren't in at this point? 

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Seen and love. 79-81 Portland TV is probably the best territorial TV from an overall (matches + ongoing stories/promos) perspective we have in any sort of week to week basis with some indication that such quality would track back a number of years. And he managed to give away high enough quality product to draw sponsors while still running the same building weekly.

Not sure how much credit he gets for that vs bookers or talent mind you. 

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2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

If they get into the HOF as All-Stars, then yes, more than you'd expect. 

Don Owen was never an All-Star though. In no year are you picking him, based on merit, as the promoter for your fantasy pro-wrestling all-star game. Maybe in his retirement year as a farewell type of thing, thanking him for the longevity, but that's it. 

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