Dave Meltzer stuff

[sek69]

They seem to think Ziggler is at that level on Smackdown, and while he's probably doing the best promos he's done in a while (ever?) I just don't buy him as a guy who can just be slotted in a main event/title program and have any credibility.

[Strummer]

Even Sasha's character at this point is just a theme song and sunglasses.

Is it time to put to rest the idea that Sasha is a great promo? I mean it's been over a year and she continues to struggle in that department. Looking at it objectively Charlotte has destroyed her at every turn. I will give her a slight pass because she seems uncomfortable as a face but it just isn't there yet

[Fando]

barely being on TV or having any mic time a year out of developmental will do that, too.

[Jmare007]

Jericho is not irreplaceable but they haven't given anyone else a chance to take on that role where they go up and down the card, just filling whatever slot is needed, turning as needed, going from main event to opening match as needed, because they have so much trust in their abilities. HHH seemed to see Tyler Breeze that way, but Vince obviously didn't.

 

They did that with Kane and Big Show for years, they just weren't able to make their characters as compelling as Jericho. Big Show could sometimes make things interesting though.

[Fando]

 

I would hesitate to call him a great worker, if only because he has the greatest single advantage any wrestler could have in modern wrestling, and that's the WWE road agents laying out his matches. We've seen too many times that it's almost impossible to have a bad main event match in WWE, unless Brock Lesnar or HHH (or, God help us, both) are involved.

 

Glad someone finally points an element that has been ridiculously overlooked when you hear that John Cena is a great worker. In today's environment, I dare say that the Warrior working modern WWE main events carefully plained out by agents would be considered a great worker too. Hell, he had one great match against Randy Savage, and we know how that one worked out. The modern WWE style is the most manufactured and self-conscious style of all time. And in essence, the "fakest" of all time, simply because it says the least about the workers involved.

 

 

How did this turn into bagging on the guy that's constantly calling the match loud as fuck in the ring for not being a great worker again?

[goc]

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

[Fando]

not only are great matches irrelevant, anyone can have them!

[sek69]

WWE matches by nature are going to be very similar since everyone's taught to work the same style.

[Cox]

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

That's not exactly what I said. I'm just saying it's easier to tell on the indies who is good because on the indies, wrestlers do not have matches laid out for them by agents. I think for a worker to be truly great, they should be able to lay out their own matches. WWE does not permit that, and it probably results in better big matches on a per show basis than any company in the world. It's to their benefit. But it's also harder for me to call Reigns a great worker or a better worker than say Styles, who has had great matches everywhere he's worked. I can like Reigns' matches (and Cena's) without calling them great workers. That is a title I would be hesitant to call most current wrestlers, and something I would reserve more for older wrestlers or a guy like Styles, who has shown he can work for a variety of different promotions and have a variety of great matches in different styles.

[WashingtonFB]

I don't get it.. I've seen plenty of bad main event matches from the company this past year. The style isn't really as conducive to great matches as you are making it seem.

[pol]

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

 

you can stop banging this drum now dude. we get it.

[goc]

 

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

 

you can stop banging this drum now dude. we get it.

 

That comment wasn't even about Reigns it was in response to El-P's shitpost about Cena.

[El-P]

 

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

 

you can stop banging this drum now dude. we get it.

 

 

Don't bother. This is a gimmick for him at this point. He's just trolling in a very uncreative way. Funniest part is that I've been using the term "indieriffic" as a super negative for years and really haven't pimped japanese stuff for ever it seems (apart from the occasionnal stuff for the GWE). So yeah, it's just a gimmick. Either that or he's just a bit…. well it's a gimmick probably.

[goc]

 

 

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

 

you can stop banging this drum now dude. we get it.

 

 

Don't bother. This is a gimmick for him at this point. He's just trolling in a very uncreative way. Funniest part is that I've been using the term "indieriffic" as a super negative for years and really haven't pimped japanese stuff for ever it seems (apart from the occasionnal stuff for the GWE). So yeah, it's just a gimmick. Either that or he's just a bit…. well it's a gimmick probably.

 

Please find all these times I've used "indieriffic as a super negative" because I'm not sure I've ever used the term at all and probably not more than once if I have. Not really caring for Japanese wrestling is not a "gimmick." I guess you're going to keep doing YOUR gimmick of 90s dude though and act like someone not seeing the inherent greatness of Japanese wrestling is some sort of heresy.

 

If I was really going to do a gimmick I'd watch a bunch of Japanese wrestling and then complain about how bad it is like your gimmick of watching modern WWE and bitching about how the style sucks.

[anarchistxx]

Not sure where this idea comes from that it is easy to have a fantastic main event match in WWE - most of them are no better than average, many are actively bad.

 

 

WWE matches by nature are going to be very similar since everyone's taught to work the same style.

 

Is that true nowadays? There are still the overused tropes of endless near falls, finisher stealing, announce table spots etc but if anything main event workers in WWE are working the style of indie wrestling circa 2006 which itself is a more flippy floppy version of puro circa 1997, rather than anything resembling the old identifiable 'WWE style'.

 

If anything, you get the worst of both worlds now, because none of them can build a solid foundation for a match and show some restraint and structure in the first half. So you just get a bit of aimless move trading and waiting around until they start doing the go-go-go indie spots and trading ever more ridiculous nearfalls.

[goc]

Not sure where this idea comes from that it is easy to have a fantastic main event match in WWE - most of them are no better than average, many are actively bad.

 

 

WWE matches by nature are going to be very similar since everyone's taught to work the same style.

 

Is that true nowadays? There are still the overused tropes of endless near falls, finisher stealing, announce table spots etc but if anything main event workers in WWE are working the style of indie wrestling circa 2006 which itself is a more flippy floppy version of puro circa 1997, rather than anything resembling the old identifiable 'WWE style'.

 

If anything, you get the worst of both worlds now, because none of them can build a solid foundation for a match and show some restraint and structure in the first half. So you just get a bit of aimless move trading and waiting around until they start doing the go-go-go indie spots and trading ever more ridiculous nearfalls.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head and is why I'm less interested in WWE than ever before. Give me the "boring" WWE style from 8-10 years ago where guys might actually bother with selling and structure over the constant bombs and 2.9 "dramatic" kickouts that we have now. It's why I like Reigns more than the rest of the main event guys because selling is his biggest strength and while he does over use the Superman Punch he's at least kept the Spear pretty well protected.

 

I knew things were getting bad when even Cena started doing that shit instead of making the new guys conform to his style. The Kevin Owens matches were pretty terrible especially viewed as a series when you see just how much of the first match they recycled move for move, sequence for sequence in the next 2 matches. Not to mention him agreeing to that idiotic Superplex/Falcon Arrow spot that Rollins did.

[El-P]

 

 

 

Because obviously it's impossible for anyone that never worked in Japan or the indies to be a great worker no matter how many good matches they have.

 

you can stop banging this drum now dude. we get it.

 

 

Don't bother. This is a gimmick for him at this point. He's just trolling in a very uncreative way. Funniest part is that I've been using the term "indieriffic" as a super negative for years and really haven't pimped japanese stuff for ever it seems (apart from the occasionnal stuff for the GWE). So yeah, it's just a gimmick. Either that or he's just a bit…. well it's a gimmick probably.

 

Please find all these times I've used "indieriffic as a super negative" because I'm not sure I've ever used the term at all and probably not more than once if I have.

 

*I* have been using indieriffic as super negative. You don't even read correctly. Seriously, give it a rest. Just ignore me. It's not like I really care about anything you say anyway.

 

(the irony is that we actually agree on some of the stuff we both say about WWE, as I didn't care one bit for the Cena vs Owens stuff after the first match and though Cena vs Styles was godawful for pretty much the reasons you mention)

[anarchistxx]

Part of the reason Reigns v Lesnar was such a brilliant match is because they showed some structure and built a story, albeit in a much more maximalist way than a main event from a decade ago. You have the fired up heir to the throne being schooled by the veteran monster champion, getting thrown all over the place and realizing he is in way above his head. He manages to summon the energy for a counter and gets a lucky ring post shot to bust the overconfident monster open, and dives on that advantage with quick, aggressive offense, desperately trying to put him away while in the ascendancy. There were no convoluted spots or ridiculous sequences of near falls, just plain old fashioned storytelling.

 

Just a shame the finish was so putrid - that was just the right moment for Reigns to go over. Because of the way the match was put together it was completely believable that he was able to slay the monster and take the throne.

 

So the run in finish was awful, not even getting to the fact that some bloke running down with a briefcase and demanding an instant title match at the main event of your biggest show of the year, while the incumbent belt holder was injured and out, is about the most ridiculous thing ever. Completely devalues the strap, makes it meaningless if you can win a stunt ladder match and basically cash in and win the title whenever you want. I'm amazed WWE fans have become so conditioned to Money In The Bank, as hideous a concept as it is. After the first cash in with Edge, which was shocking and brilliant, they should have changed the rules whereby you need to give the champion 24 hours notice. It is about the cheapest way possible to further their 'anything can happen in the WWE' myth, and such a cheap way to get heat and create a shocking moment.

[goc]

Money in the Bank was a cool concept for a one-time match but now that it's an annual deal it's just SO played out. It's a sad state of affairs that so many people thought fucking the fans out of a finish to a WrestleMania main event was actually something cool just because it'd never been done before. And now I'm not sure we are ever even going to get the Reigns/Lesnar rematch that seemed inevitable after WM 31.

[Alucard]

 

Even Sasha's character at this point is just a theme song and sunglasses.

Is it time to put to rest the idea that Sasha is a great promo? I mean it's been over a year and she continues to struggle in that department. Looking at it objectively Charlotte has destroyed her at every turn. I will give her a slight pass because she seems uncomfortable as a face but it just isn't there yet

 

 

I agree, felt like her character lost any edge as a babyface. I despised making Sasha and Bayley instant BFFs after their "heated rivalry" a year ago. Definitely agree with Charlotte destroying, she has been on fire lately.

[goc]

 

 

Even Sasha's character at this point is just a theme song and sunglasses.

Is it time to put to rest the idea that Sasha is a great promo? I mean it's been over a year and she continues to struggle in that department. Looking at it objectively Charlotte has destroyed her at every turn. I will give her a slight pass because she seems uncomfortable as a face but it just isn't there yet

 

I agree, felt like her character lost any edge as a babyface. I despised making Sasha and Bayley instant BFFs after their "heated rivalry" a year ago. Definitely agree with Charlotte destroying, she has been on fire lately.

 

Sasha is another casualty of crowds not understanding that if you really like a heel then wildly cheering for them and chanting their name is probably not a good idea. I knew a month after she got called up that it wouldn't be long before she got turned babyface due to the crowd reactions she was getting.

[shakla]

It feels like Sasha is using Mad Libs to do her promos. Inserting the same buzzwords. Also think she needs to tone down on saying insider stuff in character. Like "wanting to have a good match" or that time on Raw where she said her match at TakeOver "tore the house down" (despite losing). Her character seems more motivated to "have a good match" rather than win. That's fine backstage, but not on-screen.

[NotJayTabb]

It's the same "stealing the show" nonsense that made Ziggler such a terrible character.

 

Actually, that's one of the best things about Owens: his goal has always been to win titles and earn more money. It's an easily understandable character trait.

[anarchistxx]

It's the same "stealing the show" nonsense that made Ziggler such a terrible character.

 

Actually, that's one of the best things about Owens: his goal has always been to win titles and earn more money. It's an easily understandable character trait.

 

That would be fine if Owens actually wrestled that way, instead of the ridiculous, convoluted overkill his matches usually end up being. His ring work doesn't smack of someone who just wants to beat his opponent efficiently and get paid, it looks like someone trying to have a self conscious epic and draw 'this is awesome' chants from the smarks in the audience.

[WashingtonFB]

That's every WWE main eventer.