Dylan Waco

- The Brisco Brothers I've seen fewer of their matches then I have seen from PG-13 and while I like the Youngblood/Steamboat match a good bit, I am not a fan AT ALL of the North/South match that everyone loved from the WWF set. After that what is the case for them that we can back up for footage? I'll say flat out that if we had the footage they may have been incredible - but we don't have the footage. - The Valiant Brothers We don't have the footage. - Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat) Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle. EINHORN IS A MAN (i.e. Lafon IS Kroffat) - Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking) Not very good. - Powers of Pain (not joking) Not a fan and really don't know what they do well that would merit their inclusion here. - The Islanders (Haku and Tama) I actually really like the Islanders and hope we can uncover some solid matches of theirs for the WWF re-do. Don't like them as much as the SST as far as Pacific Islander teams go, but still. Having said that they were really Raw and unpolished. I don't mean that as a knock in general because that was part of the appeal and there are teams that have better reps who I think are worse. Still PG-13 was a more polished act, working at a higher level of difficulty, consistently working matches that had several gears to them, with clever spots of all types mixed in. I like the Islanders but they don't have that kind of depth. - Stevens and Patterson Is there ANY on tape? - Hall and Nash Not a good team in any way. Neither guy gave a shit at this point. I honestly can't think of a single Outsiders match I saw that was good. - Chavo and Hector Guerrero I like the Guerreros a lot but prefer PG-13 because of the fact that they were two guys doing different things but within an overall framework that fit. Guerreros were two guys doing similar things which is not "wrong" but not as impressive to me. - Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance) Kind of a disappointing team. Good stuff but of the makeshift WCW teams of that period I'm not sure they would rate very highly. - Ole and Arn Not a fan. They had some good matches but I hate Ole's forward moving all the time, no selling shit. I like Ole less than Brody which is saying something. - Doom (Reed and Simmons) Love Doom but there run was really short. Fuckers were crazy bumpers for guys their size and had some awesome bomb throwing sprints during their run though. - Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II Run was pretty short. - Windham and Rotunda Not a terribly good team. Windham is one of the best tag team wrestlers of all time (actually I'd put him on the short list of candidates for BEST tag wrestler of all time) and this might have been his WORST regular tag opponent. - Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club) Never was a big fan of the VC. Don't really see the matches to merit their entry into this conversation to be honest. - Hase and Muta I honestly trying to think what there big matches were and I'm drawing a blank. - The Beverly Brothers I fucking love Mike Enos and I wish this team would have gotten a better run because I suspect they were better than what there body of work says but there body of work does not say much.

I want to be clear here. I'm not saying they shouldn't count. I'm saying it is really hard for me to view them as tag teams in the sense that to me they are all independent entities that happened to team and have great matches. Some cases are less hard then me than others for reasons I can't fully explain. Hell I always had a hard time viewing the Outsiders as a tag team despite the fact that teamed more than they worked singles (or so it seemed) for a couple years straight.

Great team. Need a longer run for me to rate them ahead of PG-13 though.

I'll toss this out here - I would take the Smothers/Guido w Rich in their corner version of the FBI over a shitload of these teams as well and if they had been in any other promotion and had better opponents to work with I really believe they would have been one of the best teams of all time

I've covered the Bodies and The Steiners elsewhere (though I would also note that PG-13 are great faces and heels whereas the Bodies were only briefly casts in a face role IIRC and didn't really "work" for me there, plus I don't think there tag dynamic was as defined and interesting as what Wolife and Jamie did) so... Rougeaus. Maybe the all time team I don't "get." Perfectably respectable as a team but I literally don't think I like them as much as the State Patrol and I don't think anyone would argue for James Earl Wright and Buddy Lee Parker as being better than Jamie and Wolfie. They had a pretty decent schtick but I think PG-13 is the all time God of heel garnering schtick and the payoff once the action got kicking was really great too wheras with the Rougeaus it felt like "hey, we are French Canadian lol at us" and then...that was it. I could be wrong but going back and watching some of their stuff a few years ago I was not convinced that I was. If anything I think they are a really, really, really weaker version of a PG-13 type team. Quebecers I really enjoyed as you had a clear dynamic with the big fat motherfucker doing crazy shit and Jacques being the pompous bitch. They were a good team. I don't think they had matches that were as well put together though. Even something like the Jannetty/Kid title change which I love has some really awkward moments as Jacques was never a general and Oulette was really there for the big spots and wasn't going to control a match. Definitely an underrated team but I don't see them with the matches, style, or overall quality of PG-13 Blu Bloods. Probably the all time paper team. Where are the matches? No way they were better though they should have been

What.The.Hell?! Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights? EDIT: Some more teams to consider (NB. I have no idea who PG-13 are!): - DiBiase and Williams - DiBiase and Rotunda (Money Inc.) - DiBiase and Hansen - Jake and Barbarian - Sting and Luger - Arn and Zybysko - Austin and Pillman - Steamboat and Douglas - THE STEINER BROTHERS - Santana and Martel Looking at this list quickly and not going into as much detail but... Dibiase/Williams aren't really a "team in my mind" and I don't think they are better anyhow. Money Inc. wasn't really anything special. I'm not sure they are a top 40 all time WWF/E team and that is a promotion that is not known for it's tag teams. Dibiase/Hansen see Dibiase/Williams Jake/Barb I have no recollection of. Sting/Luger were actually a "fun" unit together but they were a special attraction and were basically a "bomb throwing" team in their biggest match with structure being irrelevant. I am a structure guy. Arn and Larry have been covered. Hollywood Blondes are one of the most overrated teams of all time. They are remembered fondly because of what both guys were and what they became. They also were a fresh act at the time that flirted (briefly) with the top of the card. There best trait was working the crowd and they were not on PG-13's level in that regard especially within the context of a match. Pillman was a MUCH better face and was on the downside of his working ability and Austin had yet to peak. I'm not sure they were even as good a team as Scorpio/Bagwell let alone PG-13. Steamboat/Douglas were a pretty good short lived makeshift team, but nothing special in the scheme of things. Steiners were a way better, more entertaining version of the Bulldogs. I still love watching the Steiners toss people around and do crazy as shit. WrestleWar 91 match with Ilzuka and Fujinami is one of my all time favs as is their match with the Nastys from HH 90. But they had one speed and one way to work and that was really it. They did not have the versatility of PG-13, didn't give a shit about tag structure or even really building heat, et. They were awesome at what they did, but I don't consider them a better team than Jamie and Wolfie. Strike Force were a respectable team. Not a single thing they did better than PG-13 in my view.

Can't tell if this is a troll post or not, but it's worth noting that some people would take Demoltion over a lot of people on that first list and I would take the Nasty's over several teams on that list by a LARGE margin.

Kawada/Taue is the one unit of the "big dog" AJPW teams that "feels" like a team to me. It's hard to explain I guess. I just don't see the identity of those guys as being wrapped up or even loosely tied into that "team." I don't mean that as a cop out either - it's just something that I've always felt. I would rate PG-13 pretty safely above both the PYTs and the DWBs who are both teams I like. To me they were just a more exciting team. It's a little thing but even watching a match they had last year I was amazed at how over they were, how well they worked the crowd (as faces), how much height and impact Wolfie got on his signature flip senton bump, et. I don't think the PYTs or DWBs compliment each other as well and Jamie and Wolfie do as you have both guys that are great at everything but who understand in the context of the team who has to do what (Ice is going to work more schtick, be more overtly comedic, be more of a cheapshotting heel - Wolfie is going to bump bigger, have flashier offense, come across "tougher.").

31. Hart Foundation I am sort of a weird one on the Hart Foundation because I think Neidhart was underrated but think the team is overrated (at least in some circles). For whatever reason they tend to be the team that is most fondly remembered from that era of WWF and they do have some matches I really like but it is remarkable how FEW matches they have that I really like. Again part of this was due to Heel In Peril shit but what can you do? Of my favorite matches of theirs (The Killer Bees MSG match from Bret's DVD and the Rockers sprint from SNME) I don't think either is as good as the top five of those ten PG-13 matches I listed and again that is a small sampling of PG-13. Thought PG-13 matches were always structured perfectly, thought they had better double team moves, thought they were far more consistent, et. I guess I don't "get" the Hart Fpundation as a top tag team. 32. The Rockers I could see this. Rockers were REALLY fucking great. WAYYY underrated. For my money the best WWF tag team of all time and they were fun in Memphis and GREAT in the AWA as well. One of the few teams that I think can match PG-13 offensively, double team/signature spot and otherwise. Also one of the few teams that I think can match them as bumpers. They were good heels in Memphis though we don't have full views of the matches to see quite how well that translated in the ring. If their was more peak PG-13 available I suspect you would see them with a resume as big but there isn't. I would say The Rockers are better based on what we have available. 33. Rose & Somers No. Really great team for their short run that had some really great matches where both guys were absolutely awesome. But there run was too short for me to seriously rate them on the level of or better than Wolife and Jamie 34. Inoki & Fujinami 35. Adonis & Murdoch Not buying either of these. First of all I don't like their matches together very much at all. Second of all fuck Inoki. Third of all I think Murdoch and Adonis reinforced the worst aspects of each other. I know this is blasphemy but I think I might like Adonis/Ventura more as a team though to be fair Adonis is more of the reason why I don't like North/South than Dick is. I just hate the way they structure their matches and love the way PG-13 structured theirs among other things.

21. Hansen & Brody Not buying it. I do think Brody was PROBABLY better teaming with Hansen than in any other setting, but it's still Brody and their are still moments where you just cringe at his shittiness. I guess Wolfie is the lesser worker in PG-13 (actually that may not be true) but his "lows" barely even exist and certainly aren't as identifiable as what you get with Brody. 22. The Funks Terry Funk is the greatest wrestler of all time and these guys had some fucking awesome matches because Terry Funk is the greatest wrestler of all time. Remember what I said about the Birds and Hayes? Well that can be applied to the Funks fifty times over. Dory really was a non-factor in most of their best matches and at times made otherwise good/great matches way worse than they otherwise should have been. When a guy is THAT big a detriment/non-factor I can't seriously argue that the team is an all time great team. 23. Hansen & Gordy 24. Tenryu & Kawada 25. Jumbo & Taue Need to go through the AJPW set and watch some of the early 90's stuff and all that jazz but again this is not what I envision when I think of a "team." 26. Owen & Davey I don't see how. I actually thought they were an insanely disappointing team to be honest. The most memorable thing that came out of their teaming was their Euro title match which was great and holds up well. But this unit was not as good as Owen/Yoko, let alone PG-13. 27. Faces of Fear Fun Nitro era team with no real standout matches off the top of my head and certainly not a team that had a body of work anywhere near as large as PG-13's despite the fact that they were in a major promotion with more exposure. 28. Harlem Heat Do people still think they were good? Do they have any really good matches? Stevie Ray is one of the worst wrestlers of all time. I honestly can't think of any argument for them being in the same universe as PG-13. 29. The Enforcers Short run with some really good stuff, but I don't think they have enough to rate above Wolfie and JC. They are a rare team that could stall/work comedy bits/had facial mannerisms on their level though. 30. British Bulldogs In my view one of the most overrated teams of all time. Part of this was due to the awful Heel In Peril tag style that was prevalent in the WWF when they were at their peak but that doesn't change the fact that for such a well regarded team they have a remarkably small body of work. Honestly I can't think of more than about three Bulldogs matches that even have big time reps which is telling considering where they came from. Cool spots to be sure, but I don't even think there spots were as good as PG-13's. Dynamite MIGHT have been a better rope runner than Wolfie or Jamie. Maybe. So there is that.

11. Footloose Really need to get far enough along in that AJPW set to look at this with fresh eyes but I would lean toward saying they were clearly better based on memories I haven't explored in almost a decade. They also feel like more of a "team" to me than the other AJPW teams listed above which I know will be weird to some people. 12. Can-Am Express Well they had better high end matches. Other than that...I don't know. Personally I prefer PG-13. I just can't get over the fact that I thought the CanAms were a HUGE disappointment everywhere other than AJPW. In ECW they had a pair of good matches with Mikey/Spike (talk about great teams no one talks about! ECW had several of them really) but by and large they seemed sloppy, lazy, confused, bored and out of place more often than not during that run. In the WWF they were slightly better but still disappointing. I know the MNW era didn't lend itself to long undercard tag matches but there were other teams from that era that actually managed to standout on some level working against weaker/less interesting opposition than what the CanAms worked. I have never been disappointed in a PG-13 run the way I was watching either of those two CanAm runs. I have no problem with someone saying the CanAms were better on the strength of their best stuff, but I would take PG-13. 13. Doc & Gordy I tend to think MVC is a bit fetishized and somewhat overrated. Honestly not sure on this one one way or the other. Though I'm sure AJPW fans will pipe up immediately a name ten MVC matches that ought to put them over the top. 14. Orient Express I love the Orient Express! But they weren't better than PG-13. Maybe if I could get a hold of more footage I could be convinced Diamond and Tanaka were better but I kind of doubt it. I thought PG-13 was as good in the two things that really made the Orient Express standout (bumping and offense) and better in terms of schticky stuff and building heat. 15. Hardy Boys Jerome thinks they are overrated, I think they are underrated but still think PG-13 was better. Hardyz best run may have been their "greatest hits" tour a few years back as their initial tag run was really just stunt show stuff and doesn't hold up for me at all. That second run had some really solid gems, though I'm not even sure they were the best team during that run. MNM may have been and Londrick may have been second. Either way I think PG-13 was a FAR more multi-dimensional team. 16. Dudley Boys I'm assuming this is Bubba/D-Von. Bubba and Spike were the best unit but only tagged briefly. Still Bubba and D-Von at their peak were a really solid team and have even showed flashes in recent years. The problem with them is they have A LOT of bad shit with weak, meandering brawling, annoying over the top no selling shit, et. in between the high end stuff. Nowhere near as consistent as PG-13 and on top of it I don't think there is any single area where they would be better. Hell peak PG-13 even worked the crowd as well or better than peak D-Von/Bubba and that is what the Dudz were known for. 17. Edge & Christian 18. Benoit & Malenko 19. Windham & Hennig I don't think anyone of these teams is even in the same universe. Benoit/Malenko is a better team on paper then they were in practice though they were hardly bad. Still I was asked to provide 20 PG-13 matches. I trotted out ten from what amounted to a period that was cumulatively about four months long IF that. I don't know if I could name 5 high end Malenko/Benoit matches period and I definitely don't think there best matches compare to the best PG-13 matches. Edge/Christian really don't have much going for them other than the fact that they are remembered fondly and took part in some memorable matches where people fell off shit that was really high in the air. I loved the West Texas Rednecks gimmick but Hennig/Windham are so far behind PG-13 it's comical. Where are their matches? What did they do better than PG-13? Their wannabe act wasn't even as good as PG-13's wannabe act. That's just a really bizarre team to trot out here and I think easily the worst one on the list in terms of trying to make a case for them being better than Wolfie and Jamie. 20. Freebirds Which unit? Jimmy and Michael aren't in the same universe but I doubt that's who you were referring to. As a trios I thought the Birds were at their best. As two man combos I don't think any unit was as good as PG-13 and that comes on the heels of watching the WCCW set and watching a lot of their AWA stuff for that pending set so I have a pretty fresh perspective here. I was surprised to see how well some of those AWA matches turned out but ultimately with the Birds it always felt like it was more about the individual performances than the team. On the WCCW set I thought Hayes in particular was a transcendent figure that really stood out as a singles guy and a focal point in tags that went behind just being "part of the team." That might be a weird point, but to me the Birds were more "three good guys working a in a unit" than a tag team.

Doing this in waves because my comp is shit. 1. Arn & Tully This was actually discussed at the DVDVR during the tag poll a couple years back and I think this is a case where the footage issue really favors Arn and Tully, but if PG-13 had a comparable amount of footage??? I just don't know. I like the Busters a great deal. There best matches are probably better than the best PG-13 matches. I do think the BB's were pretty disappointing in WWF though I'm not sure how much of that was their fault and you could say the same about PG-13 to an extent (though in their case it was inarguably not their fault). When you look at the particulars? I tend to think PG-13 had better offense, more interesting and compelling schtick and overall may have been more adaptable in the sense that "their match" was something they were able to effectively plug in to the TN indies and ECW, whereas the Busters really did not seem to fit quite right in the WWF. I have not watched non-WWF Arn and Tully in a long time barring a match or two. After Crockett Set would probably be a better time to really explore this but right now if you asked me "who's collective body of work would you rather have, PG-13 or the Tully/Arn" I would take PG-13. 2. Rock & Roll Express The RnR's were better. They had incredible longevity and Morton was pretty much the god of Southern tag wrestling. Even in SMW, years past their prime, they were a legitimately great team. I thought PG-13 worked really well with them during he SMW/USWA feud and the PG-13 v. RnR's match with Robert Gibson putting in an awesome heel performance on USWA soil is one of my favorite matches from the States in 95. 3. Fantastics I love the Fantastics. I own Will's Fantastics set and have watched the whole thing. Rogers is great and Fulton is underrated. I'd have a hard time at this point convincing myself they were better than PG-13. I think their low points were lower, they were not as dynamic (not really a knock as I would say Wolfie/Jamie were an extremely dynamic team in terms of offense, big bumps, building heat, et), their offense was not as good, and they were not as good at any single element as PG-13 was with stalling, schtick, comedy, signature moves, et. 4. Midnight Express Both Midnight incarnations were better in my view. I could go into why and may if asked later. 5. Jumbo & Tenryu 6. Choshu & Yatsu 7. Misawa & Kawada 8. Misawa & Kobashi 9. Misawa & Akiyama 10. Kawada & Taue All tough for me because I don't look at any of these units as "teams" in the traditional sense. I understand that's not fair given the amount of times they worked together but when I think of teams I think of units that had a collective identity to the point where when one guy was in a singles match it was a special circumstance or seemed outside of the norm. If pressed I would definitely rate Kawada/Taue and probably the three Misawa units higher. I haven't gotten far enough on the AJPW Set yet to really think about the other two teams. But this isn't really what I think of when I think of "tag team" despite the fact that I think 12/96 is the best match of all time.

Not really, no. Some other member (Kotska) made that qualifying distinction. Dylan, for the record, I'm not, nor have I ever implied that PG-13 wasn't a good tag team. They're just not top twenty material. There is a list waiting to be made that has a hundred good/great/excellent teams on it. PG-13 would be on the list. But they would never place. I understand this. The point was you trotted out a list and I figured that was a good excuse to you know - actually discuss PG-13 in relationship to those other tag teams and other tag teams in general. I tossed up those reviews because I had them easily at my disposal and they showcase my thoughts on PG-13 pretty well. I'm going to run through your list and some of the other teams people have mentioned here in a bit.

Interestingly as someone who was watched a lot of PG-13 and the Bodies recently, I really think PG-13 smokes the Bodies and have kinda been a bit disappointed by the Bodies. To be fair to them I went into watching a lot of SMW with a REALLY high expectation for the Bodies. I had remembered them being a blowaway great team, when in fact I just think they were a really fucking good team. I would rate them above a lot of the teams on the list in this thread, but not above PG-13 who I think put together there matches in more interesting ways and were IMO more exciting as a team.

Before I get into the meat of the list let me comment on a few things that have already been mentioned. First of all Ditch is right that a big part of the problem is that there isn't a lot of footage that has been widely circulated. I am confident that if we had the volume of stuff available and dispersed for PG-13 as we did for other more well known teams they would be very highly regarded. Second to Jingus' point about stalling/schtick/et. I think one of the things that makes PG-13 so great is the fact that they are masters of that style but NOT JUST THAT STYLE. I personally think they are the absolute best ever at that sort of thing as it never feels like overkill to me, always gets the crowd going and always builds the heat to a high point before they really start dropping bombs. And that is really the point. As Loss noted PG-13 had GREAT spots both individually and as a tag team. Seriously they worked the ga ga and then delivered with some extremely dynamic and fun moves which is something I think is really important for tags and one of the reasons I rate PG-13 above a lot of teams that have bigger reputations. I would put PG-13's signature offense above all but a handful of teams in wrestling history and that is NOT something you would reasonably be able to say about a team that relied purely on schtick. In other words they had their bullshit, new how to work it, but also could go balls to the wall with action in the ring.

Yep. Im at work, but when i get home ill run through every team listed and maybe add some thoughts on some other very good ones who have not popped up yet.

Role out the awa discussion khawk. Im mainly talking in ring as far as criteria goes, but the awa had some underrated teams.

That,s not exactly the statement i made but whatever, this is the thread to actually discuss them without the hyperbole or accusations of hyperbole. Ill get into the specifics more when i get off work tonight. Also we can rehash the spike argument in another thread. Ill just say that claiming that spike wasnt a top ten ecw wrestler is far more outrageous than saying he was

Bring it over to the other thread. Feel free to add more teams.

Matches I don't have reviews from from the two brief runs I have watched recently but can confirm were really great matches (SMW 95, ECW 97) PG-13 v. D-Von/Bubba Dudley Hardcore Heaven 97 PG-13 v. Mikey Whipwreck/Spike Dudley Orgy Of Violence 97 PG-13 v. Curtis Thompson/Jackie Fulton SMW Super Bowl of Wresting 95 Randy Hales promo before the match. PG-13 are so great at working schtick and @#!*% off people and they do that well here. Everything from bailing out of the ring, to calling time out, to being proud of each other for winning exchanges, escapes, et. Wolfie really does a good job getting in place for some big spots in the early going as well including a couple of really good criss cross spots. Really loved that another excessive criss cross spot led to the heels taking over and the spot with PG-13 getting chased around the ring and meeting in the middle to beat on Thompson on the floor again was unique. Thompson makes an awkward FIP given his size, but he was effective enough in that role and PG-13 are so good at working heat getting spots that you hardly notice the size disparity. Comeback press slam counter is really cool and Fulton's hot tag was really dynamic by the standards of Jackie Fulton. Cool spot with legsweep causing PG-13 to take each other out of the ring. Heels win with the hubcaps which was inevitable. Another good showing from PG-13. PG-13 v. The Thugz - SMW Volunteer Slam IV 5-19-95 Pre-match dueling Smothers/Ice mic work was unsurprisingly excellent. PG-13's pre-match ritual is so ridiculous it's a sure fire heat getter in and of itself. They haven't even locked up and Ice is flexing and strutting around the apron, jumping down argue with fans, graabbing the mic and @#!*% talking the infamous old lady, et. DWB runs over and hugs her which gets a huge pop as Dundee flips the @#!*% out. Wolfie armdrags Tracy and of course PG-13 go into a ridiculous celebration. Tracy wins the next exchange and of course PG-13 flip out. We are now nearing five minutes in and there have been all of two successful offensive moves and this is still awesome. Pace finally picks up with Smothers clearing the heels out with dropkicks and PG-13 dropping to the floor to call a timeout. Thugz taunt them by doing the Fargo Strut. Now Wolfie is talking @#!*% on the house mic. Ice gets bested in an armwringer exchange and ends up getting double chopped to a big a bump before retreating to his corner yet again. Holy @#!*% DWB's mocking of PG-13 dance is @#!*% hysterical. Ice gets into a criss cross with Anthony and ends up jumping into the arms of Wolfie to avoid a right hand. They both flee in terror, while Anthony makes the homophobic hand wave gesture and the crowd breaks out in a massive " @#!*% !" chant. Cool double drop down spot with PG-13 running into each other and taking each other out. Dundee grabs the mic and says the official is biased and they are leaving. Then he's calling Anthony "fatboy" and telling him if he doesn't play fair this time he's going home. Wolfie comes in and they end up working a pretty standard control segment, before Ice breaks it up with a knee to the back of Smothers, followed by an over the top clothesline bump. Smothers takes a crazy guardrail bump that almost knocks out the front row. Smothers is really good taking a beating here and I'm impressed as his ability to sell so convincingly for two guys that were being off the charts comedic just three minutes earlier. Crowd is almost frantic in their support for Smothers at this point as the heels are bringing out all the tricks to work him over and stir up @#!*% . Really cool spot with Ice getting caught in a desperation sunset flip off of a rope running spot but Curtis is distracted by Wolfie in the corner. This is followed up shortly thereafter by an ever better spot with Tracy avoiding a corner splash but getting caught by a running clothesline from the apron as he tries to make a full escape. Ice takes a huge corner bump on a really excellent teased hot tag as I was certain Smothers was going to get DWB in. Heels attempt the same spot with the missed corner charge/clothesline but Smothers ducks and they take each other out. Smothers catches Ice coming off the top but still can't fight to the corner. Finally hit hits a double DDT and then sells for a few seconds before making a huge leaping hot tag. DWB in and he is cleaning house. Bucksnort Blaster bu the ref misses the fall and PG-13 use the hubcap but Smothers breaks up the pin. Thugz use the hubcap for the pinfall. Randy Hales complains about the hubcap use post-match and Curtis reverse his decision. Besides the lame Dusty finish this was a tremendous Southern tag, with all four guys looking great. PG-13 v. The Thugz - SMW 8-10-95 Lots of pre-match antics and stalling from PG-13. In particular I enjoyed DWB @#!*% talking Ice into tagging in and then J.C. immediately going into karate pose/hiding in the corner/tagging back out to Wolfie. Wolfie gets a brief advantage with some punches but Anthony comes back with an atomic drop that sends Wolfie careening head first into Ice taking both of them out. Back in the ring Wolfie seemingly offers to show White Boy his dick and then tags in Ice who is yelping at Tracy demanding he tag in. Tracy does his back flip over the ropes and then dances a jig that equals or matches any of Ice's absurd strutting - then Ice tags Wolfie back in. Wolfie wins a lock up and PG-13 celebration culminates in him mooning Tracy. Smothers than hits a fireman's carry and Thugz return the mockery and Ice tags in again. Ice bails out of the ring but runs back to beat the count. Now he's doing the old "heel extends his hand act. Naturally he gets caught trying to kick Tracy and takes an atomic drop which is the first actual contact with anyone Ice has had in the match. Heels gain the advantage off of a rope running trip from Ice on Smothers. Tracy gets taken down and they work a cool hope spot with him getting kicked blindsided in the back coming off the ropes. FIP does not seem terribly spirited though I did like the comeback spot a lot and Tracy rolling through backwards for the hot tag was a neat touch. Finish with the faces winning via struggle over hubcap was okay. PG-13 v. Mikey/Spike - ECW FanCam 6-20-97 "You remember one thing, Custer surrendered, I didn't surrender nothing." Tremendous history lesson on North/South relations from Ice. Match is the same old from these teams, which is to say it was very good. These guys have a routine and you get the staples of that routine, including the double dive from the faces, the heels accidentally hitting each other over and over, the mid-match mic work, the JC can't slam Mikey spot, et. Some of the stuff in this was a little sloppier than in other matches early though it tightened up down the stretch. This one had the benefit of an especially nasty sounding Wolfie punch and a really good camera angle on the Wolfie rana of Spike into the turnbuckles. This also benefited from a heat section on Spike that was really well done and more varied then some of the others. I especially liked the tilt-a-whirl double team with J.C. refusing to cover Spike afterword and the spot with Spike getting bumped to the floor and Wolfie following up with a Macho Man style double axe to the floor. Wolfie hits a back body drop/elbow drop combo after a really good cut off clothesline that I've never seen before. J.C. grabbing the mic to @#!*% talk leads to a nice teaser fall from Spike. Hot tag seemed a little uneventful and the finish was the same dropkick/schoolboy combo from most of their matches, but I think the meat of this one stacks up as well or better than all the others. PG-13 v. MIkey/Spike ECW FanCam 6-27-97 Pre-match stuff with PG-13 is really great, especially Ice pointing to a mid-rope licking Spike and talking about how it proves that there really are people who " @#!*% their mothers and brothers and sisters." Ice actually has his own mic and refuses to take his shades off and is still @#!*% talking fans when the bell rings to the point where Mikey is literally cracking up in the corner. Wolife ends up beating on Spike, but Spike counters with a series of roll ups and then an arm drag followed by an arm bite. Criss cross spot ends with Wolfie getting kicked in the balls, Ice getting dropkicked to the floor and the double plancha onto PG-13. They do the bit where Ice can't slam Mikey, so Mikey slams him. Then PG-13 accidentally elbow drop each other about ten times before bailing to the floor. Ice ends up getting on the house mic and declaring that he will abandon Wolfie if that happens again and then they end up hugging. Spike comes in and gets his head taken off on a misdirection clothesline from Ice. Spike goes FIP. Really cool spot with Spike getting rana'ed into a turnbuckle headfirst. This prompts Ice to get on the mic and say 'that's how we treat our women in the South, just smack them in the face like the @#!*% that they are." Good powerbomb from Wolfie and a cool dropkick/russian legsweep combo. Spike hits a desperation double DDT and then gets a hot tag. Cool finish with Wolfie crotched up top to set up the diving dropkick/schooboy pin. PG-13 v. Mikey/Spike - ECW FanCam 6-29-97 Another in the awesome series and another that starts off with Ice @#!*% talking. Holy @#!*% Ice @#!*% talking the mutants for not having girlfriends was great. Ice leaves them by saying if they don't win he and Wolfie will "suck every dick in the building." The opening sequence in this with Spike and Wolfie is almost identical to the previous night but better executed and made much more entertaining by the fact that Ice is @#!*% talking fans on the apron in the background the whole time. J.C. comes in and finally decides to take off his sunglasses while dancing around like Elvis. They do the same bodyslam spot from the night before but it is made ven more awesome by the fact that Ice is threatening to anally rape ringside fans and Wolfie comforts his initial failure by saying "what are you talking about, you are the strongest man in wrestling history?!" The crowd chants "spit or swallow" and Ice literally launches into an analysis of this concluding with a line about "busting a nut" being the endgame other way. Spike goes FIP in a slightly different fashion from the night before and takes some really cool bumps. The crowd chants "you @#!*% up" for no real reason at all. Ice with his double stomp for a nearfall, then runs over and slaps the @#!*% out of Mikey. Spike takes the awesome rana into the turnbuckle spot again. Spike with the hot tag off the double DDT and ends up getting tossed onto his @#!*% head on the floor when all @#!*% breaks loose. Jason gets on the apron, but ends up backfiring and Mikey rolls up Ice. The crowd breaks out into a massive "suck my dick" chant at PG-13 almost as soon as the fall is counted. This was really similar to the match from two nights before, but the interaction between the wrestlers and the crowd was so much better that this was a MUCH better match. PG-13 v. Mikey/Spike - ECW FanCam 7-10-97 Pre-match J.C. Ice mic work is somewhat difficult to hear at times, but what is audible is typically awesome. Opening Spike/Wolfie segment was really entertaining as they kept having these weird spots that sort of looked like something was being miscomunicated, but kept resulting in @#!*% that made sense or was really cool like Wolfie's wipeout bumps to the floor off of a rope running exchange or Wolfie taking an attempted reverse rollup like a @#!*% spike piledriver. This all builds to a cool dive spot where PG-13 catch Spike only for Mikey to hit a leaping hilo onto everyone for the big bump. Ice and Mikey exchange starts off great with Ice being incapable of slamming Mikey so Mikey slams him. Ice can't knock Mikey down so Mikey knocks him down. Ice resorts to ridiculous karate posturing, Mikey bows, Ice bows, Mikey punches him in the face. Just lots of fun @#!*% early. Wolfie comes in and throws some punches before Mikey takes advantage again and they do the spot with Ice pouting on the floor and Wolfie consoling him with a hug. Mikey eventually loses control on a cool misdirection clothesline, but the really great stuff starts when Spike comes in. PG-13 takeover on Spike with a clothesline and from there it is just a ton of awesome, with Spike taking rana's into the turnbuckle, getting punched to @#!*% , selling his @#!*% off, et. Mikey is great on the apron desperate to get in. Wolfie ends up taking the great flip bump off the top to lead to the hot tag and Mikey is a great house of fire. Finish is Wolfie getting tossed crotch first off the top by Mikey onto the ropes and Mikey hitting a top rope dropkick onto Ice into a Spike schoolboy. I thought this was a great match when I saw it at the time and seeing it now nothing changes my mind. Watching Mikey work as the strong man/immovable object is really pretty insane but he was great at it. PG-13 were just incredible at incorporating all of the tricks of the trade and Spike sold better than @#!*% near anyone in wrestling at that point. Awesome stuff. PG-13 v. Mikey/Spike ECW FanCam 7-11-97 I did a virtual play-by-play of the 7-10 match and I'm not going to do that here. This is very similar to the match the night before, but I think where there was variation it was arguably better. For example I liked the double drop down criss cross spot more than some of the schtick PG13 worked in the first match and I thought Spike's flip plancha was a welcome addition here. I also really dug the Ice test of strength with Spike which was just as over the top as him not being able to slam Mikey, but done in a fashion that seemed near believable. The Woflie D/Spike follow up with Mikey coming through Spike's legs for a ball shot on Woflie and J.C. going for the same thing only to get poked in the eyes leading to him popping up and headbutting Wolfie in the nuts was pretty great (as was subsequent helium voice on house mic performance from Wolfie). Spike's FIP was a little weaker here because of the length and the lack of tension on the hot tag, but I actually kinda liked the hub cab assisted victory for th ebad guys. There are ten matches I've watched in the last year that I think range on the low end from good to great. Note that these matches reflect a month match stretch in 97 and a couple of months of secondary work (they were USWA guys then) in 95.

The smkelly "list" 1. Arn & Tully 2. Rock & Roll Express 3. Fantastics 4. Midnight Express 5. Jumbo & Tenryu 6. Choshu & Yatsu 7. Misawa & Kawada 8. Misawa & Kobashi 9. Misawa & Akiyama 10. Kawada & Taue 11. Footloose 12. Can-Am Express 13. Doc & Gordy 14. Orient Express 15. Hardy Boys 16. Dudley Boys 17. Edge & Christian 18. Benoit & Malenko 19. Windham & Hennig 20. Freebirds 21. Hansen & Brody 22. The Funks 23. Hansen & Gordy 24. Tenryu & Kawada 25. Jumbo & Taue 26. Owen & Davey 27. Faces of Fear 28. Harlem Heat 29. The Enforcers 30. British Bulldogs 31. Hart Foundation 32. The Rockers 33. Rose & Somers 34. Inoki & Fujinami 35. Adonis & Murdoch At least a few of these teams are teams I think are better but there are A LOT that I would and will dispute. Some I think are pretty laughable (Harlem Heat? Faces of Fear? I like Meng and Barbarian but come on), but some could spark some fun discussion. Not sure whether or not to go the route of one master post or to try and compare a few teams a day. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.

This felt like it deserved it's own thread and shouldn't clutter the other thread. Basically I think PG-13 MIGHT be a top ten all time team and almost certainly IS a top 20 all time team. Smkelly objected to this and rolled out a list that I will respond to. He also asked for a list of matches. It just so happens that I have watched a couple of short - but really great - PG-13 runs in the last few years and have several reviews written up on the matches and will post them here. Others should feel free to add their thoughts of course. I think this could be a fun thread and if it spins off into a more general discussion of great tag teams (forgotten, ignored and otherwise) we can amend the topic title.

Start another thread and I'll be happy to discuss the relative merits there without the crybaby nonsense if you like

Might be worth starting a separate thread to talk about all time great tag teams, but I'll just say that while I can understand your point MJH to me it has never been a problem and if anything their undersized nature has made them even more impressive to me.

(insert team here) v. PG-13 would have been great. Seriously, PG-13 is one of the greatest tag teams of all time. They're on the list yes, but not towards the top Are there ten teams better than them? Maybe but I'm not sure of it. Are there 20 teams better? I'd say almost certainly not. PG-13 deserve a retrospective at some point.