JewishJoshiStan

Philosophy, y'all: Do we put more into Thesz's ability to compel people that what he was doing was real than, say, Shawn Michaels' (because the historic importance of Kayfabe varies between the two)? My feeling is I might be unfairly biased in the direction of candidates like Lou or Verne Gagne simply because people really did think what they were doing was real. Then again...I hate that Shawn is so bad at producing the same effect....

I'll have more to say as I accumulate but: 1. He's a real possibility for me 2. I'm not as inclined to dismiss his goofball work as others are in here; to me it's part of his diverse case rather than the part to ignore (in part because I'm not the hugest Shoot-style person).

This is sort of my dive-in, both with this project* and archived Lucha. Past experiences with Lucha (during what seems to be Pierroth's peak period from this board, at least) have initiated me into the style of match I saw him do with Supremo, which to me is too much FIP ("TIP?" to be very enjoyable. It pops the crowd, but I can't really understand it in isolation. *I have done some isolated, rambling reviews before. I anticipate all of mine to be similar. I'll be reviewing mostly Wednesdays during my Winter break from teaching. Next tried the handheld vs. La Parka, which connvinces me I need to have a damn Park/Parka/Whatever weekend in lockdown or something until I understand that tradition...but that's mostly Parka's entrance. I will really need to revisit my mentality here, and see if I just don't like the "Base Technico" style in general...but Pierroth Jr. seems like a full-time "writhing face" to me here. I don't know man, this feels like looking for good live Sex Pistols performances. If there was something there...no one ever captured it. Apparently he was the rudo here which...I am so lost. Genuinely thought he was the Techniko vs. Supremo. Anyway, there's lots more (checking out Cien Caras and Konnan vs. The Killer and Pierroth now; the hell, Konnan was a Ricky Steamboat type in Mexico once?), but for time's sake I'm cutting him as a no-chance. Definitely going to have a Lucha deep-dive, possible nothing but for a full year. So a reversal before 2026 is not unheard of for me.

He seems to be holding his own with some great talents on the playlist titled "Mr. Wrestling 2: Best of the Masked Men" (even if I'm actively offended by the playlists' title). Probably worth diving into what little pre-mask footage there is, although I seriously doubt he makes my list. Fun fact: His career goes far enough back that he jobbed to The Great Antonio in 1960.

Cheers! Glad I bought you a cup of virtual coffee back in the day (my wife was tickled at the concept).

I'm torn because I find his WWF role to be a nasueating example of how talent was wasted. And I am currently working on getting the archived footage necessary to give the Johnny B Badd era a fair shot*. Anyone have links to good Youtube/Dailymotion so I can give them a good look? I'll say I think he's top notch in the terrible role of "the dude who kept Attitude Era fans from whacking off to Sable unfettered." *I refuse to pay for the WWE Network.

My current academic project is looking at Orange Cassidy vs. Hulk Hogan and asking (here is a rough sketch of the inquiry): "Are Orange Cassidy and Hulk Hogan doing the same 'thing?"" By thing I am indicating core artform, not genre. Obviously if we accept that they are both pro wrestlers (I don't know if I do) then their genre is fundamentally different-excluding the fingerpoke-but I'm not sure if that's the right question. Cassidy's provoking that question means I have to consider him for my 2026 top 100...assuming I decide he is in fact a pro wrestler.

Any recommendations for the comedy? I've enjoyed the Super-J and Michi Pro stuff so far but I also find those to be two platforms where I have a harder time differentiating workers.

I'm doing a little random nominee knockout lightning round here, and man alive do I agree with the above. Currently contemplating him more for my "Is he better than HHH" list than for a top 100 all styles all-time list. I fail to see what he brings to the table apart from rep. See Mil Mascaras (and I think Mil is better).

Everything written above makes sense to me, and yet on my utterly chaotic current worksheet he's #45. That's far more of an indication of how much more work I want to do on all of the nominees than how strongly I feel about him as an all-time great... ...but I'll share my notes from that worksheet anyway, with self-clarifications in bold. My only real takeaway from looking back here is that I don't feel like dropping him yet with about 4.5 years left on this project. Tell me I have until December 31st, 2026 at 11:59 PM. Please. Some observations from disc 1: Disc One Shane...by and large he’s a sympathetic mid-card pretty boy face here. Skilled but hadn’t really found psychology yet. From a Dynamic Dudes comp, I believe. And I do think any of the backlash that gimmick received had nothing to do with his in-ring skill (or shouldn't have). VHS ECW Big Ass Bash; here it’s obvious that in the verbal confrontation with Pillman that both were heat magnet motherfuckers. I last watched this VHS about two years ago and since had to dump it when I got married with five new kids...the heat he and Pillman generated gives me *chills* thinking about it. I honestly can't remember another back and forth on the mic that gave me the same reaction. My current thoughts: Critiques of him as the top heel in ECW miss that (on the mic as well as off it) he was everything HHH was *supposed to be* in the WWF at the same time. He's also so much better as a top heel than the heel people focus on as the great creative genius heel from ECW (Raven) that it's not even funny. I listen to his color commentary on Heatwave 1998 (also on VHS but I kept this one). He puts Taz over while still heeling like a Flair* and not a HHH (who was literally telling the babyfaces he "wasn't putting them over" on the mic around the same time; there's a promo on Raw after one of his matches with Cactus on a PPV in which he says this for reference's sake). I also think of the heat he got (Kayfabe out of a legit injury) for what happened to whichever Pitbull he injured and how little HHH got for the same thing with Austin at the Ventura Summerslam. It all comes back to HHH for me and (here I am directly ripping from Dylan's HHH comparison thread which I have ranted about to Daniel Makabe while stoned)...he was indeed far more qualified for HHH-ing than HHH ever managed to be. Did he accomplish more than Hunter, career vs. career...trying to remove all context? I mean, it's not a ridiculous question. My next goal is to go through some matches from his different stages, being currently constricted to Dynamic Dudes and ECW only. I'll say this...writing this makes me want to review his case. And with my Joshi/Lucha/WOS obsessions, that's saying a lot. *I personally find the Flair obsession fascinating, even if I promise to never make a case that it adds to his case for this list. I won't be arguing Warrior belongs on this list because I used to fall asleep listening to his Anti-Hogan rant...I just like falling asleep with the comfort that I'm not *that* mentally unstable.

This really shouldn't be controversial. He's not a trainwreck at all (if my above comments suggest such I should edit). Maybe he's best suited for a "100 Most Underwhelming of all-time" list because he clearly could've been much more.

It's not hyperbole to say that I'm honored to be posting here after reading PWO content for years (it was the "A Thread In Which Dylan Compares Various Wrestlers to HHH" that hooked me) To me the debate on Nash is whether he's underrated (or perhaps whether we agree with Dylan's claim in that thread that Nash and HHH are basically equal in overall merit). Consideration of him for a list like this is, at best, WWE/WCW-centrism at its worst. (See Genre notes below). If someone wanted to try a WWE/WCW top 100 list and put Nash on it I probably wouldn't bitch. I say probably...though I'm very confident I can think of 100 WWE/F performers who smoke him. Positives: He was certainly part of a hot period for business. I buy his claim that the early success of the NWO was him and Hall with Hogan jumping on the train before it took off, blah blah. I'll briefly mention one Nash match that I think fairly represents his shortcomings in a variety of areas I look at (and discuss them in connection to my own metric): Slamboree 1997...my rubric's acronym is NJPW CAGE (Nuance Jumpup Promos Workrate Character Appeal Genre and Elevation) ; it refers to the 8 things I like to take into account. Nuance and Character: There's a moment in this match when he tags in and has an absolute babyface expression. I am Nash, I am pissed, and here I come to save the day. That is *burned into my memory* as a reason this *very* heated match didn't work as well as it was supposed to. Nash either didn't know how to or chose not to adjust his expressions and actions in many big situations or just didn't because of self-interest. Either way, a match featuring Piper and Flair versus the terrifying new wave threat and...the crowd wants to pull for Nash. Jumpup: Can't think of anything Nash ever did that wowed me. It's harder when you're that size to perform a feat of awesome strength (just look at the fuckup with Giant), but...his rockstar presence was sorta "here comes the big man." I don't really get wrestling fandom that consists of spectators just getting wowed by size. Promos: Look at the build to that match. Nash's comments (the "Pothole" speech) was both weak (whining about Hall's salary cut even as he parenthetically acknowledged he sucked and therefore it wasn't unfair at *all* that he wasn't being pushed) and certainly failed to sell himself and his team as the heel. I for one find 90% of business-exposing promos a negative, and man alive that one was ass. Workrate: I feel lazy for breezing by this (simply because he's an almost legendary low-workrate dude). I have to call the bump from the Fingerpoke one of the moments I most despise in wrestling history* because it truly proved him as capable of bumping better than he did when it was supposed to be real. Only bump I've ever seen that took a piss on the business (unless you count the HBK/Hogan match). *Not a zealous anti-fingerpoke guy; I just hate that weirdly workman-like bump. Appeal: Aside from wanting to see some of his Bret matches because he gets good reviews for them, I can't imagine wanting to see a Nash match (have seen all HBK PPVs). This is one department I'd be interested to hear counterarguments for. Genre: I've seen Glenn Jacobs deviate from the coprorate American style more than Nash. As someone who treasures diversity, this doesn't help him. Elevation: I'll admit it's hard to seperate reputation from what I can see bell to bell with Nash in terms of putting other people over. Still, I really don't see him as someone who made anyone apart from his buddies look good (note above caviet about the Bret matchs). I hope to contribute better comments on more interesting cases than Nash's for top 100 of all-time, all-styles, etc. (sorry, I just feel like it's a pretty foregone conclusion) but it's been nice trying to contribute my subjective-but-with-indicators approach here at least.