David Mantell

Well I want to know about it and what happened and how it evolved from the old days to the 80s/90s stage and on to the present day. I get tired of hearing the blatant lie that British wrestling disappeared overnight in 1988 (like WCW genuinely did once Jamie Kellner had his way) so I'm sceptical about similar sounding claims in this similar case and not inclined to follow instructions to Move Along Now Sir, Nothing To See Here. If other people don't like it being discussed, that's their business not mine. El-P, you've been very helpful and I'm grateful but who I really need to talk to now is someone more my age who grew up with this stuff while us British kids were into Big Daddy and Kendo vs Rocco, and whose first ever territory was the final 10 years or so of French wrestling and got their founding ideas of what pro wrestling should be from this and carried on going to shows in the 90s years after TV and has happy adolsecent memories of those days. A French version of me, basically. We'll see who comes along ...

My point re. New Catch on Eurosport was that those shows, like the Macedonia show, were a lot bigger and grander than whatever Varini says he saw (and they weren't all old guys either.)

Bernard Van Damme simply wanted to run as big and expansionist a wrestling company as possible, like McMahon (and Ted Turner wanting to show he could do it as well). And the Eurostars TV show, whatever plaform it wason, must have been accesible and doing well in Macedonia to attract a crowd like that.

For one thing, clearly not all French catch at that time was old men in an empty gymnasium. For another thing, I was 18 in 1992 and lapping up All Star shows in Croydon with Kendo headlining so I wouldn't generalise on the tastes of teenage wrestling fans in the 1990s. It does come up with some very amusing stuff though. To be honest, both the S&U (mis)quote and the old men quote reminded me of Alex Shane - as a babyface! (in the context, the term seems more appropriate than blue-eye) telling a crowd of FWA fans in 2001 that traditional British wrestling was "a load of fat old men in swimming trunks" and getting a pop from the Fin Martin-believing crowd. Something I've never forgiven Alex Shane for. So naturally I'm sceptical when someone makes a similar negative comment about French catch, one of British wrestling's two closest living siblings. I cannot help but suspect that he would have said the same about the early 90s All Star shows I loved. Or anything that didn't involve lots of roids and no reversals of holds. And yes, TV stations that either don't show wrestling or have stopped showing it do try to show wrestling in the worst possible light. I'll take your word for it that few people in France had access to Eurosport. It was carried on the Astra satellite which carried Sky TV which was the platforms for both the WWF boom and the UK popularity of the Simpsons, so quite a lot of Brits had access to it. Satellite dishes might have been seen as vulgar and trashy but plenty of working and lower-middle class familes had no such hang-ups.

“I remember the first time I saw French wrestling, it must have been in 1992, on Telematin. I was used to American decorum, very muscular guys, pretty girls, a sound and light show in front of thousands of people... There I saw two chubby guys the age of my grandfather trying to bickering in an empty gymnasium. It was the saddest thing in the world. In France, wrestling has the impression that it's the festival of underwear or sausage. 95% of the time, it's people with pitiful physical condition and athleticism who perform in front of 40 people. Since there is no control or regulation, there are dozens and dozens of structures. Among them, there aren't even ten who are serious, and even then, when I say serious, I mean that they manage to organize more than two galas per year. When they see that, I understand why veterans like Mercier are upset." Bear in mind this was while New Catch was on Eurosport if not still on TF1 and only a few years later Eurostars was doing that succesful show in Romania before a decent sized audience of young kids. It may be that Antenne 2, for their own twisted reasons, went out and found the grottiest old promotion they could find in all France to show the French public over their breakfasts how far things had gone downhill since they packed Le Catch off their channel and onto FR3 in August '85. No idea what "the festival of underwear and sausage" is, but we have some odd traditions on our side of La Manche too.

Not sure if it's still true post-pandemic (and what with there now being AEW also) but it was said of wrestling in the UK a few years back that it was the one place in the world, outside of a WWE contract, where a wrestler could make a full time income all the year round (although even in the Modern Era, many UK wrestlers still liked to supplement their incomes with Auf Wiedersein Pet-style ferry trips over to Germany and the EWP/CWP.)

Varini also mentions seeing two fat old men on Telematin in 1992 and being disappointed. Well there will always be veterans in the ring Le Petit Prince wrestled his last bout in 2002 aged 62. although I think Marcel Montreal and Jean Menard do a respectable bout here from a late 80s fancam. with Menard in the role of "Vieux Pontoufle" Miserable Old Man heel:

I didn't quote that bit but he talks of about 40 people attending (He also talks of about 10 promotions, most of which do 2 shows per year - so who are the other eight? Possibly Association Beauvaisienne de Catch et d'Athlétisme and Association Biterroise de Catch may be two of them.) The point I'm trying to make is that a show like this ... .... puts me in mind a lot of a closer to home show like this: ... about the same size show as a World Of Sport TV taping (the English show - which I was at - was indeed at a former TV venue, the Royal Spa Centre in Leamington Spa.) No US/Canadian old time territory - with the exception, I repeat, of New York/Capitol/W(W)WF - currently survives to anything the point of being able to run shows on even that scale. As for indie shows, I realise that 'how big is a US indie show" is like how long is a piece of string, but it generally conjures up images of a show like this: Which despite a physically larger room and the inclusion of a couple of Southern old timers (mostly from Memphis/Continental even though the show took place in Georgia) including Robert Fuller in character as his WCW persona Colonel Robert Parker is clearly a shabbier more threadbare affair with, on closer inspection, a thinner audience even if craftily spread out.

Thanks for clearing up what the accusations were and also the intermittent work payment system. I have incorporated some of this into the Modern Era section of the WP article. I have to say the 2022 videos of Wrestling Stars I posted a couple of pages back look a lot more respectable than Varini makes out - they look in terms of size a lot like a modern All Star or Rumble show in England held in a former TV venue (which in turn looks like a 70s/80s UK TV taping but with no audience on the stage due to modern health and safety regulations.) Not exactly Bercy or Wembley but hardly a mudshow either. In fact a nicer and just as full venue as the 1978 Mammouth Siki vs Daniel Schmid bout I posted. I know people in Britian like to yack on about how provincial and unglamorous the small town halls and theatres were, then and now. But there are THREE Old School Euro territories of the C20th (British wrestling, French wrestling, German wrestling) still in rude enough health to at least keep going at that kind of grassroots level. Anyone name me TWO mid-to-late C20th US/Canadian regional wrestling cultures still functioning even at that level, let alone higher? (Obviously New York wrestling, which lives on to this day as WWE, is One example but I struggle to think of a second one.)

It's worth saying that in Britain we had the All Star vs Joint wars of the late 80s/early 90s and the All Star vs TWA falling out in 2002-2003 and neither of those were as vicious as FFCP vs WS. (The former revitalised the scene and tooled it up to survive the post-ITV era, the latter gave All Star the kick up the backside to get its act together, move away from the tribute acts and focus on the young talent like Dean Allmark, Robbie "Dynamite" Berzins, Mikey "Whiplash" Gilbert etc etc. ) Even McMahon and Bischoff never descended to the level of accusing each other of turning up on their doorstep to pour bowel movements over their heads and in their footwear! They didn't refuse to speak to press who interviewed the other one of them, either.

Which bit? Whether he's a household name or not, or the ins and outs of his/Jacky Richard's/WS's business disputes with FFCP/Marc Mercier?

Célian Varini (TV commentator for unspecified promotion) “Wrestling is is a very small environment where everyone eats each other's noses. What's really sad about this is that they are fighting for very little glory and very little money. They strive to be number one at the village festival, it has an almost pathetic side. The Merciers, Flesh Gordon and others are former friends who have become best enemies. Mr. Jacky for example, he has been there since he was 12 and a half years old. He's never known anything else. If you take away his little wrestling aura, you take away everything, you understand?"

(Anonymous Wrestling Stars employee) “I was told not to talk to you since you went to see the FFCP. Mercier is a crook, a thug, whatever you want. He throws everyone around, that's all he has to do. He and his father cheated us on taxes for 40 years. I say things, I don't lie, he prevents us from making a living from our job with his bullshit." To these accusations, Marc Mercier readily responds: “Jacky Richard is a first-class fraudster who receives his retirement thanks to the fight started by my father and who is shitting me in the boots today. He dumps bowls of shit on my head every morning. These are empty accusations made by guys who lose their cases." Assuming that Mercier and Richard are not literally doing unspeakable things involving faesces to each other, what exactly is Mercier saying there? Also I guess the "cheated us on taxes ... prevents us doing our job" bit is the same as the promoters' narrative I mentioned in Q.7 in my above post.

https://www.vice.com/fr/article/z4jm59/le-catch-francais-tente-de-ressusciter Marc Mercier demystifies the era in his own way: straightforward and direct. “The matchmakers worked illegally and lined their pockets. They made billions on the black market, we called them the wrestling mafia, says the former athlete. My father led 8 years of social struggle from 1968 to 1976 so that wrestlers finally had a status and were declared. He got us to be included in the intermittent worker regime in 1976. The matchmakers received huge fines, from 800 million to 5 billion francs depending on the case." Still according to Marc Mercier, this social advance unfortunately contributed to the decline of French wrestling: "My father also launched a war against Georges de Caunes and the televisions which paid black money. They stopped broadcasting us, that's when we broke down. At that moment, French wrestling lowered its flag, the United States and WWE took over and Wrestling Stars (WS) picked up the rest,” he laments without regretting anything about the action carried out by Mercier . father. And this is where things get complicated, since between Marc Mercier and the WS, it is not really a love story since it seriously competes with the FFCP of Mercier jr. Seriously, and illegally according to Marc Mercier: “They declare quedalle, they accept galas at a lower cost to earn a few hundred euros. It is this type of institution that is killing the profession. A wrestler must therefore have an employment contract, a pay slip, a pension, like everyone else. But they are playing on their associative status under the 1901 law to get around that." Concretely, Marc Mercier accuses certain promoters of violating the law pushed by his father, which defines wrestlers as artists subscribing to the intermittent regime. This law "stipulates that wrestling cannot be organized under the cover of an association dependent on the law of 1901" , he asserts, and this is what he intends to do to allow wrestling to take place. develop again. But nothing is won: “ I’m the only one yelling!” I was received by the government under Sarkozy, but under Hollande's five-year term, no one listened to me, they didn't give a damn. I am going to make things happen, start a second social movement in line with the one initiated by my father. We need to stop accepting pimping, because it's nothing more and nothing less than that. Questions: What is the intermittent worker regime? I know George Du Caunes was a TV presenter and the father of the bloke who did Eurotrash on Channel 4 in the UK in the 90s but what was he doing that was corrupt or illegal viz wrestlers. Mercier's chronology seems a bit out - he says that "they stopped broadcasting us" then the WWF took over. From what we've put together, WWF arrived on Canal + in 1984, wrestling moved from A2 to FR3 between 11th and 18th August 1985 and stayed there until November 1987, then there was the first TF1 run of New Catch in 1988, then a gap for a few years (during which time Delaporte sells up Elysee Montmatre in '88 and then retires from promoting in '89 shutting down the FFCP until 2006 when Mercier came along.) then another run in 1991. The first WWF live show at Bercy predates the final FR3 screening by a month or two. What exactly is "quedalle" ? The page translation refused to translate it. Highlighted translation rendered it as "stay". Obviously it's some concept you have to know all about French law to understand. "they accept galas at a lower cost to earn a few hundred euros" How does this work out? They make more money from demanding a lower fee??? What was the law of 1901, what does it say about "associations" "the law pushed by his father, which defines wrestlers as artists subscribing to the intermittent regime" Interesting - I have read elsewhere accounts of wrestlers being reclassified as performers rather than sportsmen and it creating a huge amount of cost in extra tax that sandbagged the French wrestling industry (preumably this is the "corrupt" promoters' narrative.)

In Britain it got picked up by ITV specifically because Lew Grade had witnessed firsthand the American TV wrestling boom of the late 40s/early 50s (ITV until the mid 80s was basically a public service broadcaster in drag as a 1950s US TV network.) We were lucky because Kent Walton was prepared to fight for it to be treated with respect which kept the British versions of Maurice Herzog at bay. Still it lasted on free-to-air terrestrial TV in both countries until 1988 with a brief comeback in both in 1990/1991. In Britain it might have carried on for years more if the contracts were a year later or the launch of Sky a year earlier (I say ITV moving WCW to Sat afternoon '92-'95 was their way of sheepishly uncancelling the wrestling). In the case of France, we need to know more about this mysterious TV deal that Eurostars in Belgium had in the 90s/00s that was getting them screened in Switzerland, Macedonia and who knows where else, presumably France and Belgium - perhaps that was the French answer to Reslo.

Been watching his other VOD of Travesti Man Actually I have to admit that until that point not only had I not realised Travesti Man was actually Jacky Richard but that "Best Boy" Jean Claude Blanchet was actually the same person as Paul "The Butler" Butard whom Jacky the 2nd Marquis de Fumolo inherited from beardy Eduardo the 1st Marquis. Well that explains how he put on the weight and dumped the horseshoe hairdo for Monsieur Jacky later on. One thing still not explained is why he was allowed to stand on the ring apron like that. Even in America they had to step down to ringside. On non-TV shows when Fit Finlay wrestled, Princess Paula was made to spend the rounds sat n a chair. On ITV the likes of Paula, George Gillette, Charlie The Gent, Doctor Monika, Tony Francis etc were regarded as seconds like the corner bucket crew and made to disappear out of sight up the aisle while the match was on. Have left a comment on the FG VOD suggesting he do some VODs on the INA's stock of vintage French TV wrestling.

Whether someone was drafted for a NFL team or not is a matter of hard fact (which could be dealt with on WP via a counter source about them getting injured and not getting to play) whereas whether someone is a household name is harder to counter if there's a reliable independent source that makes him out to have been one, as no one is likely to bother to write an article along the lines of "C'MEC FLESH GORDON, IL N'ETAIT RIEN!!!", are they?

Yes, but this whole debate is over an edit to Wikipedia and whether or not it should be changed.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Dépêche_du_Midi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Dépêche_du_Midi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth

( in response to apparently deleted post) Just to clarify, I meant that according to Wikipedia's own rules, La Depeche is AFAIK a reliable independent source, so OK for referencing stuff. If you know of any claims to the contrary on either English or French Wikipedia, please link to them. If it's actually the most godawful slanderous tabloid and is banned from WP like The Sun, then fair enough, but otherwise it's fair game as a WP source as far as I can see.

Different Euro territories seem to have declined at different rates. Italy, so I gather, died off entirely in 1965, subsequently getting some revival attempts by a couple of wrestlers from Piedmont. That same year according to the essay on Wrestling Titles, Spain's CIC got reduced down to just Madrid and Barcelona before even that petered out in 1975, leaving various French and German promoters to spend the next 15 years fighting like hyenas over the corpse of Spanish wrestling until the WWF marched into both Spain and Italy and properly revived interest. They did not bother to do this in Greece where the scene limped on in sickly fashion, by 1987 holding shows in converted concrete car parks with the most awful jerry-built rings you ever did see, before finally sputtering out in 1991. That leaves the UK and France with actual national TV plus West Germany/Austria with a highly developed early wrestling home video market. We've discussed the decline of quality and popularity in France - local wrestling seems to quietly vanish from terrestrial TV in 1988 unlike in the UK where it goes out with a Greg Dyke shaped bang that same year. The UK has been able to rebuild itself commercially with Big Daddy but at a cost in quality to the point where a red hot opposition promoter takes over the territory. In Germany, the long tournaments incorporated into beer swilling festivals continue despite the WWF success and the CWA happily co-exists with the German Cult Of Bret Hart just as in Blighty, All Star's post TV boom happily co exists with Bulldogmania. So it goes on and by the C21st all three territories are doing unspectacular but steady business at grassroots level up to the present. Meanwhile all over Europe, new American Wrestling promotions spring up. The Southern Europeans have no memories of their old time scenes but in Northwest Europe the traditional scenes trundle on and are much derided by the old school as antiquated and kitsch and something they intend to do away with. But they never quite manage this goal.

Yes, the malaise wasn't focussed on Gordon the way the UK's problems were focussed squarely on Big Daddy. Gordon is simply the natural case study as lead babyface of the scene - also even in the 90s and 00s he was still a better wrestler than Daddy in every respect. With Joint in the 80s, if you delete the Daddy tag main event, often what you are left with on the undercard is something resembling John Freemantle's Premier Promotions in the C21st. With FFCP, EWF and WS in the last 4 decades, it's more something spread in homogenised fashion across the whole of that Wrestling scene - Mambo Le Primitiv, Marquis Richard's butler Paul Butard being allowed to stand on the ring apron the better to interfere in the match, Les Maniaks, Scot Ryder, Kato Bruce Lee ...

My previous post in a nutshell- Flesh Gordon was the French Big Daddy, Pierre Booster Fontaine was the French Alex Shane.

At the end of the day iLe Depeche is an acceptable wikipedia source and the point is that it takes about him like it expects its readership to know and be wowed by the mention of Gordon's name. The WP article does mention the change in style that he exemplifies. Personally I think in terms of showiness, gimmicks etc that train was already leaving the station in around 1971 with the likes of La Bête Humane, Le Hippie Du Ring and poor old Dave Larsen as Le Batman - and the driver was very much Delaporte. but then I only said Gordon exemplified that direction, not that he originated it. Was Gordon a betrayal of French Wrestling tradition? If he was, then Big Daddy was a similar betrayal of British Wrestling as an attempt (and clearly a very successful one) to turn round a decline in UK audiences similar to the French decline Delaporte describes in the docu, by subverting the whole sport into a kiddy pantomime in which he mows down all heel opposition and everyone else has to take their turn in the pillory, heels being crushed by him, blue-eyes being rescued by him. It was utterly offensive to British wrestling's classical values (to the point where it opened up a gap in the marketplace for Brian Dixon and All Star) yet undeniably Big Daddy is a key landmark name in the history of old school British wrestling and clearly a big identifiable part of that culture. ICWA on the other hand were part of a wider trend across Europe (the FWA and all the other New School promotions in Britain were part of this too.) that simply did away with local wrestling history/culture, (often ferociously disparaging it and using the likes of Daddy and Gordon as sticks to beat it) and instead just did American Wrestling - loudly trumpeted as such - in a different accent or language.

I quite liked her, she reminded me of Klondyke Kate in the 1988 BBC2 docu Raging Belles talking about juggling life as a heel and as a mum while having to make it clear that there is nothing stopping one be both. I wonder if the kid went into the business like Kate's son from the docu Adam and her later daughter Connie both did. Unlike ITV, Antenne 2 never had any qualms about screening women's wrestling - although they too drew the line at Seins Nus .... I notice Rollerball Mark Rocco is on the poster at the start of the above video. Pity he wasn't included in the clip - I would have loved to see him in French Catch at that stage of his career. (He did of course appear on New Catch in 1991 against Danny Collins in Paris.)