Voices of Wrestling WON HOF - Mexico w/Matt Farmer

[W2BTD]

Wrestling historian Matt Farmer joins Joe and Rich to discuss the Mexico region for the 2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame! We discuss who should go in, the addition of trios, voter habits, HOF resumes and much more with one of the preeminent historians of this region.

 

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/22/mexico-candidates-matt-farmer/

[ohtani's jacket]

Man, there was a lot of stuff on this I didn't agree with.

 

The Missioneros are the best workers on the ballot? Navarro and Texano were like Flair and Tully? I don't know how we can draw that conclusion from the minuscule amount of Missioneros footage on tape and the fact that what we do have isn't that good, and Signo is arguably the best of the three. Their influence on trios matches gets blown out of proportion as well. There were many famous trios before the Missioneros, and while trios matches may not have been the predominant form of match they weren't suddenly born with the Missioneros. The discussion also ignored how short their run was, the troubles replicating it, their less successful Japan stints, the fact that only Texano could get proper work after it was over.

 

The Brazos were draws. Arguably bigger draws overall than the Missioneros as Jose pointed out the other day. They also weren't created because of the Missioneros. They formed around the same time in the late 70s.

 

Villano III has a laundry list of great matches? Is that a laundry list that's been through a cycle and torn up a bit? Not on tape he doesn't.

[Matt Farmer]

First I gotta say this was my worst podcast appearance I think I've ever been on. Had a massive fever, and was fighting a horrible flu. I probably should have cancelled, and I apologized numerous times to both Rich and Joe, my mind was all over the place and it felt like I couldn't put a sentence together.

 

Villano III, I've seen him live at least 2 dozen times or more. The guy is excellent, and has a great reputation from his peers as to just how good he is. He is probably better than IV & V and both of those guys are very good too.

 

Now on to the Misioneros, I've also seen tons of their matches too. Calling them Flair and Tully is not a stretch, and you know who would agree? Negro Casas who has called them the greatest he's seen (called himself Negro due to his fandom of Negro Navarro). Villano III called them the best trios ever! That was their calling card and were well know for being great in the ring. Even to this day Negro Navarro at 60 something is considered great. (and he is).

 

I may have said something to effect that Misioneros helped create Brazos, and honestly I could have said that but it's not accurate. Those two teams together worked with each other often on small cards which got the attention of the larger promoters. There run was not short, 7 years as the top drawing trios. In which their last major feud was with Brazos and they did excellent business. Which was really the Brazos first big extended run.

 

Now I will tackle the popularity of the trio match. Sure there were trio matches, and trios prior to Misioneros. But once the Misioneros got hot, trios with special names and gimmicks popped up and became a predominant part of a Lucha card. I have almost complete results for 85% of El Toreo cards and similar number for EMLL's big buildings and it's proven in the results. Los Fantasticos, Los Infernales, Cadets, Termanarios etc were all influenced due to the popularity of the Misioneros.

 

I do not want to trivialize Brazos, along with Misioneros they are 1 and 2 for top trios. Brazos had more longevity (but not on top) and Misioneros were on top during the hottest period for business in the history of Lucha Libre, I'll take Misioneros.

[ohtani's jacket]

I have no doubt that Villano was a great worker or at least an excellent one, but the only proof we have that he had countless great matches is hearsay. We only have a half dozen matches from his prime and none of them are blow away great matches. I respect what his peers have to say about him, but that leads to grey areas like opinions over workers such as Santo or Solitario.

 

Did you see tons of Misioneros matches live or on tape? I can't see how it would be the latter since we don't have tons of Misioneros footage. I'm aware of their rep, but I suspect it may be over inflated. I don't doubt that they had an influence on trios groups and live gates particularly after the Santo incident, but there were other trios gimmicks before them like La Ola Blanca that did big business and plenty of gimmick tag teams were likewise draws. First and foremost, I think their biggest legacy was that light weight wrestlers could be pushed to main event slots, though ironically the two guys who they saw the most potential in (Texano and Brazo de Oro) never achieved the kind of success Flores foresaw for them *because* they were put in trios teams.

 

The work we have of theirs on tape doesn't hold up well. Navarro wrestled nothing like he does now for example.