Torch Talk Library
Kevin Nash compares Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, Survivor Series Swerve (05-03-05)
May 7, 2005, 06:27 PM
Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 5
Originally Published: May 7, 2005
Torch Newsletter #860
Kevin Nash was one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry. In this, the fifth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about why Bret Hart is better than Shawn Michaels, and why Shawn Michaels is better than Bret Hart, plus discusses the Bret-Shawn rivalry that led to the 1997 Survivor Series Swerve, his thoughts on the Survivor Series Swerve, and the reaction within the WWF at the time when Hulk Hogan signed with WCW for the first time. Next week, Nash talks about getting to know Triple H.
As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including his jump to WCW, the formation and success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, and much more.
Wade Keller: The comparisons will be made forever between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. You've worked with both. If somebody were going to make a case for why Bret was better than Shawn, what would the number one reason be? And then what is the number one reason Shawn is better than Bret?
Kevin Nash: To me Shawn Michaels is (Michael) Jordan. He is Jordan. He is in a different class. Shawn was a much, much, much better athlete than Bret was. So take that equation out. It's kind of like saying who was better, Magic (Johnson) or (Larry) Bird. That's kind of what you've got when you come down to it. Magic was the better athlete. Bird won more. I personally think that Shawn is the greatest as far as people I've touched. When you touched him, it was like? It was in the turnbuckle and you threw him and you kind of said, "Hey, do that thing you do," and he just kind of made you. You'd send him off and he'd do some crazy flip over and land in the fourth row thing and people would go ohh-ahh. Shawn had that ability, and Bret didn't have that ability. But at the same time, Bret was artistic, he had his psychology, his love for the business, and his love for his gimmick and his devotion to the Hitman. There was a devotion and a clarity to the character and there was no diversion from that. You wrestled the Hitman, you didn't wrestle Bret Hart. Shawn was a lot more pliable as far as character-wise, and I think the Hitman was probably a stronger personality in the ring. I loved working with Bret. I mean, if I had to pick five of my best matches, Bret would be one of them. That one when I dropped the belt to him, that was it. The next night in Norfolk, we told Vince we can't work because we beat the f--- out of each other and gave it all last night, there's nothing left.
Keller: How surprised were you when you found out you'd be getting the quick title win over Bob Backlund right after Backlund beat Bret?
Nash: It's funny because we were over in Europe. It was one of those deals back then you could go to Europe for 21, 23 days in a row. Me and Shawn and Scott had drunk all night long and basically drank onto the bus that next day and we got to like Hamburg or someplace and we were hammered. I mean, we were hammered. We worked the match. I worked against Fatu that night. It stank because I was hammered. I got out of the ring and one of the agents told me I had to call Vince ASAP. I said, "Aw, f---!" (laughs) I thought I was going to get fired for getting all f---ed up. He told me to come out to the house on Friday after I got back (to the States). I'm thinking I'm in big trouble. So I went out to the house and he starts laying sh-- out, blah blah blah, and then goes, "and then we're giving you the strap." I said, "I've got the strap." He said, "No, I'm talking about the World strap." I just sat there for a minute and thought, "Did he just say that I'm going to be the World Champion?" I thought maybe it was a work. So I did the no-sell and said (calmly), "Okay, that'll work." As soon as we finished our conversation, I got back to my hotel and called my wife and I said, "You're not going to believe this. In November, I'm going to go over Backlund for the belt in the Garden on a house show!"
Keller: How far in advance were you told this?
Nash: This was probably June, July.
Keller: So he knew that long ahead what he was going to do?
Nash: That's the thing about the business back then, you knew way ahead.
Keller: So Backlund was going to get the Iron Sheik treatment all along. He was the transition guy.
Nash: Yeah, he was the transition guy, but at the same time, he had some really decent heat.
Keller: He was strange, but in a way where you couldn't really turn away.
Nash: Right, exactly.
Keller: Any backstage stories about Backlund? Did he act nuts off camera?
Nash: I remember one time he was staying in Europe in the room next to me. I heard this banging against the wall all night and I was thinking, "Wow, somebody's getting their groove on." It was about five o'clock in the morning, it woke me up. So I looked on the list, because back then they used to have a list. I said, "F---in' Backlund?!?!" So we got on the bus and I asked Bob, "What were you doing this morning?" He said, "Arghh. I was doing step-ups on a chair in my room." I was like, "Okay, that makes sense!" (laughs) Nobody could go that long having sex. He went two hours doing step-ups. I remember working with him when we did a rematch in Sacramento. He grabbed me and said, "Piledriver!" I said, "What?" He just snatched me. He was so strong. I had never been piledriven in my life. I was on the ground before I knew what was happening. I was thinking to myself, f---, I'm 300 pounds and this mother f---er just picked me up and piledrived me and I didn't have nothin' to say about it. I couldn't say, "Wait a minute. Whoa! Stop!" He was that f---in' strong. I remember he gave Shawn an ass bump one night on Raw, I think we were in Poughkepsie or White Plains, one of the two, and Kamala was involved in the match. He gave Shawn an ass bump, and he was so strong he about threw Shawn on his head over his back because Shawn went up so easy and Backlund was so strong. I remember sitting on the apron on the floor watching and thinking, whoa, man, this guy has some incredible innate strength, that ability to do 200 dips. Bob took my finish that night. Bob crawled to the back of the Garden. He sold his back the whole way. He crawled up the aisleway. He couldn't have put me over any stronger. And once again, it's another guy, who went that extra? That night, when they sent me out for the second time at the Garden, he pulled me aside and he goes, "Take your time, make 'em love you. Start the love affair with them. This is what you're going to need to get over." It was strange because you always hear the Backlund stories how it was almost a rib that they made him a champion. Here's a guy that actually got it. They put him in that position and he got over to spite them, f--- them, and here's how you do it. He didn't have an attitude that the young kid was getting the belt. It was a nice experience.
Keller: Do you think Bret was at all upset with the transition of the title at the time?
Nash: He was very upset. He came to me when he heard about it in Europe. He came to me and asked if I thought he wasn't doing a good job with the belt. I said, "You know, no man, I think you're a great champion. But, Bret, with that belt comes money. What do you want me to say for my family standpoint? No, I don't want the belt? Come on, if the boss wants me to have the belt, I'm gonna take the belt. If you have a problem with it, take it up with him."
Keller: Did he expect you to say you didn't want the belt?
Nash: I think he did! It's almost as if he was saying, "You don't love it as much as I do." I said, "Bullsh--. I do, I do. Bret, maybe I haven't been in it as long as you, but I have that same affection for the strap as you because quite frankly because I love wealth as much as you do." But Bret and I had always had a really good relationship. I was glad I wasn't there when everything else transpired because that would have tarnished my relationship with him because I would have been lumped in. I heard that we were supposedly a part of it from Atlanta, that we actually were in on it, like we satellited in some kind of mojo. Just because we were the clique, they thought there was no way those pricks weren't in on it from Atlanta. (laughs)
Keller: Today looking back at it, did Bret make too big of a deal out of it and Vince was totally within his right? Was it just two powerful people butting heads and the most powerful guy won? Or was Vince trying to screw Bret to get at him or Bischoff?
Nash: I always say this. When I watch the tape back, I always say to myself it's a f---in' work. There's no f---in' way that Vince McMahon would ever walk out of a room f---' selling. I've always said that as long as I live, to this day I will say, "It was a f---ing work!" I saw Vince McMahon with the federal government up his ass, with neck surgery walking to White Plains and basically doing a f---in' Gregory Hines tapdance through a television when everybody was wondering, "Are we getting shut down?" And Vince looked at us and did Mr. Bojangles and said, "No."
Keller: Let me throw this out there then. He did it, it was a shoot, and part of him felt terrible about it, and when he got backstage, as he says, he felt Bret deserved a chance to confront him over it, and when he did, he wanted the world to know what happened. He chose that moment to show vulnerability out of guilt for what was a shoot.
Nash: (pause) I don't know. There's no weakness in that man. I mean, if he wanted to show that, then it was a work in him showing that. He showed it out of the fact that maybe he knew it was a bad deal. You will never, ever, ever see Vince show weakness. The closest I ever got was when I stood in Paul's (Triple H) wedding and watched his daughter marry Paul. I watched Vince kind of sell a little that his daughter was moving on in life. Vince and I had some good moments during that, because he knew of the tightness between Paul and I. But Vince tore both of his quads. Do you think he's selling anywhere? He ain't selling sh--.
Keller: Do you think Shawn Michaels, in the position he was in, did what he had to do and handled it the right way?
Nash: God, that's such a rough call because it's one of those deals - when I was Vince's boy in New York, if Jack Ruby would have come up, I would have taken the bullet. That's just the way you feel for the man. There's a love for him because he loves you and you love him back. He's a man's man. Anybody who doesn't like Vince McMahon? Austin and him have butted heads for years and years and years, but Steve loves that man. I love Vince McMahon. I can say whatever I want to about him because I went through times with him, but I won't let nobody badmouth him.
Keller: Terry Taylor after he got fired said that he loved him. Vince Russo after everything they went through says he loves him. A lot of people have that affection for him who have worked really closely with him.
Nash: Vince is a man. You respect his power. In a world of alpha-males, he's on top of the mountain. If anything, there's a jealousy factor that people have because he's a billionaire and he runs the business I love and he calls the shots. That's why I always said to Bischoff, "F---, you beat The Man for two years. There ain't a f---ing human being on this planet, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, anywhere that can say they beat the man for two years. I would have that on my gravestone. "Here lies beloved father, husband, blah blah blah, and by the way I beat McMahon for 92 weeks" or whatever. Eric, that was huge! That's the whole thing where I think it's so important for us to try to get TNA going because if there is a viable commodity to go against Vince, anything, he'll just become better.
Keller: When Hulk Hogan signed with WCW, did that reverberate within the WWF locker room that Hulk Hogan, WWF American Pie, is now with the competition? How did that shake out with the top guys?
Nash: You know, at that point we were so cocky. The thing is, I didn't have a long enough time to spend with Hulk during that first run. He was there only a couple of months and he was gone. It was one of those deals, you don't realize in this business, there's Hulk Hogan and then there's wrestling. You don't realize it. I remember when the NWO took off and we did all of our sh--. We did those black and white things. The original thing was, me and Scott did some soundbites and Hogan went 45 minutes nonstop. Me and Scott went holy f---! This guy is the great white. He's jaws. He will eat you alive if you're not prepared. Don't come into his domain. At the same time, we gave him no respect. I remember Hulk saying to me in the back of the plane once, "My whole career, all people have wanted to do was sit there and eat from the Hogan apple tree and let the golden apples fall into their hands. Hall and Nash come along and they want to take a chainsaw, cut the tree down, and take all the apples. You guys are too much." Sure, we didn't appreciate what he was, but at the same time, when we went back to New York, it was a completely different thing. When we went back to New York as the NWO, it was like the three of us versus the world. That night when he stood toe-to-toe against The Rock and the crowd went "Hogan," I bonered out so bad because I learned the hard way that Hogan is the f---in' man. There's Hulk Hogan and then there's everybody else. I will say it to this day. When it comes to pro wrestling, there's Hulk Hogan and then there's the next guy.
Keller: And Steve Austin's the next guy?
Nash: I think so.
Keller: Is that a big gap?
Nash: I think it's different. Steve's run was as iconic as Hulk's. Hulk's career is just so much longer. It's like there's Babe Ruth, and then there's Barry Bonds. I think that Hulk is Babe Ruth. I still think to this day that Bonds is probably the greatest baseball player that's ever played baseball, but he's still not Babe Ruth. So, that's kind of the way I equate it. Steve, God, when we (in WCW) were kicking their ass and Steve started getting going, I was Steve's friend. I would go to the truck and try to watch his sh-- (on Raw) because it was so f---ing good.
Keller: You were watching this, and Nitro was still winning the ratings by a point or a point and a half, but you're watching it knowing this is without question way better than anything else right now.
Nash: The thing was, too, I told Eric (Bischoff) that when they did the WrestleMania and they brought (Mike) Tyson in and every match had a movie quality trailer that told the story from the last six or eight weeks of what the match was because Vince knew nobody was watching the show. I mean, that's when Kane was shooting lightning bolts out of his hands and catching people on fire. I watched that from my house that night and I called Eric up late after the show ended and I said, "Dude, we're in f---ing trouble." He said, "Awwww, f--- that." I said, "Watch WrestleMania. We're f---ed." Kevin Sullivan said [Nash imitating Sullivan]: "Brothah. Do you feel the wah-der? It's getting cold. It means we're about to hit an iceberg." Sullivan knew. Are you not watching the competition? We're about to f---in' sink. We're f---ed. These guys are off and running.
Keller: You didn't get that feeling at all when Hogan signed with WCW the first time and you were still with the WWF? You said you were really cocky at that point?
Nash: We were the New Generation. We thought we had reinvented the wheel. We were the clique. We were the strongest thing in the business. Nobody told us what to do.
Keller: And you knew what you knew about WCW and thought Hulk alone couldn't fix that mess.
Nash: I didn't know how committed Hulk was going to be. I thought he was going to take a payday. He was doing that Thunder in Paradise show at the time, which was right down there. I figured he was just getting another huge payday off these marks. It was a different Hulk. I thought he just thought the marks bought into Hulk, which was good for us. Anytime somebody is making money, they set that bar higher. When the bar is set at eight million, you can say he's doing a 2.0 and we're doing a 3.0, how about giving us more money.
