SomethingSavage
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The Piper's Pit routine is so tired, and they've forgotten how it works anyway. Prichard on his podcast has talked about how guys like Christian were criticized for doing it wrong and trying to get themselves over. The idea supposedly is to get the guests & their programs over ONLY.
Piper always knew well enough that he had to be over first & foremost to get any segment over. He didn't shrink down and allow it to be ALL about the guests every time.
Furthermore, if they had competent interviewers in place to carry their weight in the vein of Mean Gene, then this role would already be occupied on a weekly basis.
And thus there would be no need for fifty-eleven forgettable Piper's Pit clones.
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I'm sure they got healthy incentives to stay put, so good for them. It's great that this sort of leverage exists again.
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I understand the reasoning behind the decision if their hand is forced & they're scrambling to cover an unfortunate development preventing Bryan from being their top heel, but fuck me running. Another KO run up top sounds like so much suck.
I'm all in favor of them giving Roman a true ace run for once, but KO as the transition doesn't feel like an ideal way to get there.
I would honestly much rather see Shane fill that spot, and I'm not even joking. That's not an ideal scenario either tbf, but at least it's something new.
Purists may cry foul over the idea of Shane holding the belt, but come on. Vince has had it, and hate the guy all you want, but he brings more credentials to the table than A LOT of active full-time guys who have gotten the belt.
Desperate times/desperate measures & all that...
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8 hours ago, Matt D said:
I don't want to see Rollins wrestle anyone, but if I had to see Rollins wrestle someone on the roster, Roode is probably up there. He'd base and stooge for him and prevent him from doing too many stupid things. I'm not saying it'd be a great match but it'd probably be solid and not annoy me. I saw Rude have a pretty excellent house show style match with Cedric at an NXT show a few years back. Sometimes I wonder if he's just not a good TV wrestler or what.
You know, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Roode was able to drag something decent out of Seth. He got good matches out of Jeff Hardy by serving a similar role, albeit more than 6 years ago.
Also, Miz and Elias gave Seth his best matches during that IC Title run. We had to endure a slew of shitty, nonstop gymnastics from Seth and Dolph - so it's easy to forget. But both Miz and Elias were able to actually be heels and slow Seth the fuck down enough to hold my attention and hold things together.
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23 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:
I have no real use for Seth Rollins as a singles wrestler and I felt the same way (except even stronger) about Dean Ambrose, but I really liked their work as a Tag Team. Hell, I thought their match for the Tag Team Championships at Hell in a Cell last year was excellent, and they were fighting Drew McIntyre and Dolph Freaking Ziggler of all people. So really, I had no time for 3 out of the 4 guys in that match as singles, but they had a hell of a Tag Title Match.
This.
To be fair, I also thought he did fairly well as the mid-card gatekeeper. IC Champion should be his ceiling as a singles worker though, as he's perfectly passable in working the all-action, go-go-go style somewhere in the middle of a card.
But yes. Tag teams or trios allow him to shine. He can contribute, get his shit in, and then hang back. The problems arise when Seth attempts to drive a narrative or serve as a focal point of... Well, anything.
2 hours ago, C.S. said:I get that people hate Seth's singles work, character, catchphrases (BURN...IT...DOWN...!!! Seth Freakin' Rollins! King Slayer! Beast Slayer because Seth couldn't consult his thesaurus to come up with a different word!), etc. Yet, when Seth is in trios matches with The Shield (like the one a couple of months back at Elimination Chamber or FastLane, whichever b-level PPV it was), everything about him seems special again and I'm reminded why we all fell in love with him in the first place. Where's the disconnect?
You're not wrong. The disconnect is that nobody bothers to recognize the difference between being good at one thing & that never necessarily translating to another field.
Seth can be good in one setting and absolute dogshit in another. Some workers excel in teams & never quite find their stride in singles. It happens.
And, truth be told, that's always been the case with Seth. Even his best ROH stuff was in a team setting. Despite the hype he got at one time, I thought the dude was constantly outshined in solo stuff.
The disconnect is that he has zero connection to the crowd & seemingly even less incentive to establish any connection. He's very much a product of the modern style, in that he seems to place a greater importance on popping the crowd with movez and impressing his peers in the back.
Seth isn't concerned with hooking the audience. He isn't concerned with psychology. He isn't about progressing the story or the conflict or the narrative. Seth, as a worker, is all about "proving" himself or flexing his athleticism or whateverthefuck.
It's like a whole generation of guys took all the wrong lessons away from workers like Shawn Michael's, basically - while simultaneously ignoring some very critical lessons they SHOULD have paid attention to.
Seth is all motion, zero emotion. And pro wrestling is only ever great when it taps into emotion. Period. End of story.
Yes, it can be good when it's strictly movez and high spots and stunt shows. But it never approaches great without that connection - that raw nerve feeling - that emotion.
Seth has never once shown any indication that he grasps that idea. The closest he's ever come, as noted, is by being brought along for the ride in some solid team stuff.
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38 minutes ago, El-P said:
Yeah, really. And considering WWE's track records with fucked up shit like is, I'll be Cassandra and say there's nearly zero chance of it ending well. Remember when the first Wyatt's vignettes and debut happened ? It looked like the coolest stuff in years. And then they never managed to make anything but crap with it, turning Bray into a black hole of suck. Which is a shame, because the guy really has something about him, as showed in this oddball piece of business. So yeah, intriguing in a WTF way, but it might as well be another Beaver Cleavage in the long run.
I don't know, man. The original Wyatt stuff felt over like rover up until at least Mania 30. It didn't feel (to me) like they lost their way until the Cena cage match and that hokey ass finish. They went too cutesy with it and never pulled back from there. It's basically been a bunch of false restarts ever since, unfortunately.
I like Bray, for the most part. I realize that makes me an outlier, and I'm cool with that. Tbh I'm not even sure if it's cinders of that 2013/early 2014 run or what. But I keep holding onto hope that he puts the pieces together, for whatever reason. I feel like he got a raw deal with that awful WWE Title run, but he doesn't feel like anything resembling a main event act right now.
I'd like to see him become a player, but I'm not even sure where he should be slotted or how he could best contribute to a card. They're booking him like a complete novelty act whenever they DO use him, although I feel like that Roman HiaC match is the best sort of role for him. But I don't know. This fun house stuff is... Something else. Very bizarre.
6 hours ago, Coffey said:My god. Imagine the inevitable Seth Rollins Vs. Robert Roode match.
Shoot me now!
People shit on it, but the instant they actually booked it (and you know they would) - folks would instantly come to the defense & start talking about how over both guys are. Cause, ya know, people react to their entrance music or some shit.
But yeah. Horrible. Straight nightmare fuel.
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These reindeer games to find a number one contender are so tired. They're the definition of filler.
No matter who you pair Seth with, it reads like a throwaway mid-card match. Even the slightly interesting combinations (vs Styles or Rey) seem like IC Title stuff at best.
And the least interesting ones (vs League of Nations castoff Drew or Corbin) is just complete trash. Seth is such dogshit. It's such a shame he lucked his way into "right place, right time" to challenge Brock and wind up Universal Champ.
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Guess you could say he's SOL, and you know what THAT means...
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Arn allegedly let Alicia Fox go out and rassle, err perform, while she was under the influence.
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Pretty Peter Avalon is legit. He feels like a guy that would thrive in a faction or a tag team on the main stage, but he's versatile af and super fun in the pest/vermin role. Don't know that he's big enough to make a serious singles run, but book him as a Buddy Jack or a Syxx type and let him do his thing.
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Apparently they just recently acquired the name "WWE Stomping Grounds" for something. So there's that in their back pocket, I guess..?
32 minutes ago, C.S. said:Anyone gonna watch the final, final - really, we mean it this time - final Shield appearance tonight?
But this final reunion since their last renunion following their farewell match after their goodbye match before that will be so much better in 5-minute clipped form later this week. The wait & see method is the way to go.
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5 hours ago, DMJ said:
So, in my years-long quest to watch all the WCW PPVs I've finally reached Starrcade 2000 and Sin.
I'm not sure when it started, but on these shows, as I was watching them this weekend, the level of "sweetening" of the crowd noise really, really stuck out to me. I'm not sure why I didn't catch it before.
I mean, the crowds here are just visually dead. You can clearly see that nobody, not a single person any of the first few rows from any angle, is standing or screaming or shouting. And yet, the crowd noise for the duration of a 10+ minute Goldberg/Luger match is deafening. When Goldberg does hit a big move, you can hear a clear (and likely real) pop...but you're hearing it over a constant din of crowd noise that is coming from some mysterious portion of the audience that is, inexplicably, as excited and vocal for Goldberg's entrance as they are for both guys selling their exhaustion on the mat in minute 9.
WCW was putting on these shows in arenas that held 15-20k fans but only filling a third of them. Obviously, 6000 fans can be plenty loud...but when you can visually see a majority of the audience is sitting completely still, yawning, and casually sipping sodas while the audio makes it seem like you're at WrestleMania III, there's a huge, huge disconnect and now that I've seen it/heard it, I can't unsee it.
It makes me wonder how long the "sweetening" was going on and how much of it still goes on today with the WWE. And, if I'm wrong about this, and that was actual crowd noise, then WWE really dropped the ball because if you listen to just the audio of the Mike Sanders/Ernest Miller rematch at Sin, you'll think you're hearing a Road Warriors entrance that's been put on slow motion. Based on the audio, the Natural Born Thrillers were basically DX meets peak-era Horsemen.
Mike Sanders was a pretty big deal at the time tbf.
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On 4/20/2019 at 9:28 AM, TheDuke said:
I like to think of the second brand split as the start of the current Era. Probably mainly because I prefer Smackdown to Raw, and before the brand split it just felt like a B show. I understand though that roster wise and booking wise, a lot of the key elements of this current era started before the brand split. However, if somebody who wasn't watching the current product wanted to go back and start watching this current period from the beginning, I would tell them to start with the second brand split.
I would tell them to watch SmackDown only from the brand split of 2016 up until Mania 2017.
They can stop watching full shows at that point & only cherry pick selections from the big shows. That'd be my recommendation.
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On 4/19/2019 at 7:49 PM, Superstar Sleeze said:
I agree the Attitude Era ends in 2001.
Cena & Batista winning in 2005 usher in a new era. I think of it as the First Wave of Cena. It is a very stable crew of main eventers that include Cena, Batista, HHH, HBK, Taker, Edge, Orton. At first Angle is in this crew but then Jericho replaces him. JBL, Big Show, Kane and REY Rey are fill ins. This era ends in 2009.
2010 is a crazy year in WWE history. HBK, Batista, Edge & Jericho leave. Taker & HHH are not full time. 75% of your main event is gone. People underestimate how different WWE is in 2010. It is the Second Wave of Cena but now HE IS THE MAN! There are no Attitude Era leftovers supporting him. It is just him & Orton. This is the Era that features a ton of one-off pushes like Miz, Sheamus and Swagger. Only really Punk sticks and eventually Bryan. Bryan's health & Punk's ego/impatience stop them from ushering in a new era.
2015 feels like the start of the current era. Cena's reign as The Man comes to end at the hands of Brock Lesnar. Smart money was this would be the Reign of Roman Reigns but bad booking and health has made this Brock Era the Reprise.
At the time, 2014 felt like the beginning of a new era - ESPECIALLY coming off the heels of Mania 30. Bryan, Cesaro, a resurrected Beast Lesnar, BRAY, and the whole Shield trinity felt like fucking superstars. But it was almost entirely undone by that summer.
And so yeah. We get another attempted reset in 2015, which led to the Seth push, the "failure to launch" Roman trope, and so on.
Moving along...
Doesn't warrant a thread, but...
Looking back, I fucking love the Batista/Undertaker series from 2007. I mean, I REALLY fucking love those matches. I caught myself scoping out their Mania 23 match on their YouTube channel, and I just spiraled from there & ended up revisiting all of them.
The Mania match is tremendous fun. Just a high-energy, fast-paced sprint from bell to bell. Their LMS is a nuclear bombfest, and it serves as a blockbuster sequel to the original encounter.
Their cage match doesn't redefine the stipulation or anything, but it's a quality TV match that establishes both guys on even ground.
And then their HiaC is an awesome WWE main event style gimmick match. It doesn't quite reach the heights of the Hunter/Tista one in terms of violence or finality for me, but it's not too far off. They bring the brutality with the weapons, and the Edge interference doesn't do anything to detract from the finish for me. I actually find it to be a neat callback to the original HiaC ending. Deadman can't catch a break!
Oh. And the Cole/JBL combo on commentary really hit their stride & found their chemistry together around this time, too. Bradshaw in particular was on point at the booth. He went on to become pretty terrible during his last run, although I always found him to be among their better commentators during his SmackDown run.
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14 minutes ago, Herodes said:
I’m not white and the only knights I acknowledge are Sir Reggie B Fine and Sir Mo.
And yes despite your shitty use of quotation marks I stand by my statement about the disproportionate amount of impotent rage directed at a sister who decided to speak up.
So you got that list compiled yet, or ya still just assuming who's white here & who isn't.
Being the self-appointed Jesse Jackson or whateverthefuck, please do tell who among us here is non-white enough to call out another non-white on their bullshit.
Fucking hell.
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Who's white?
And who isn't?
Or are we just assuming?
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18 minutes ago, C.S. said:
Damn, now you're making me really want this. But we both know WWE "creative" is too inept to ever give us a storyline with this level of thought and depth.
Their only TV angles are about title reigns and records. That's all they put on TV. All other angles are relegated to the Twitterverse.
So yeah. I mean, it *could* happen - but the "feud" itself would only exist in a back & forth exchange of fake insults on social media.
If you're lucky, Cole will reference a tweet or two the night of their PPV match maybe. So there's that?
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Well, the end of Greg Pak's Hulk run was somewhat underwhelming. I'm slightly disappointed with the direction of the overall arc he chose to wrap things up, but it was still an incredible run all around. I can appreciate the emotional beats he tackled with his final story, but I don't know. It just wasn't the most exciting subject matter, and it's all basically been addressed elsewhere with Banner and the Hulk personalities.
Jason Aaron's run wasn't too much better either, but I really dug the way he kicked things off - having the Hulk experience a series of blackouts and wake up in dangerous, adrenaline rush situations time & time again. Everything was unfolding seemingly at random, only to come together brilliantly at the end. Pretty fun stuff, although it mostly felt li a transitional story to be honest.
I dipped out on my Hulk reading after that, dabbled in some other stuff, and eventually found my way to Jason Aaron's Thor after hearing SO MUCH positive praise for it.
I've only just finished up the first phase of the Godbutcher storyline, and I gotta say - this is fucking phenomenal. I mean, I get it. I absolutely see why people were loving this stuff.
Gorr is a fascinating villain - complex and driven with a real, believable vendetta. He's such a rich, pitch perfect counterpart to the God of Thunder. I love his motivations and the plot he masterminds to get shit done on his terms.
The dialogue is tremendous, too. Aaron drives the conversations in such a smooth, casual way. Thor is lighthearted and comedic at times - but never in such a way that undermines the stakes or consequences of his circumstances.
Thor's relationship with Jane Foster is amazing also. I was never a big Thor reader before, so I have next to zero familiarity with their romance. But it's handled extremely well here.
The moment where Jane reveals her cancer to Thor is so touching and heartfelt. Their conversation that follows is so real & so raw. It has to be read to be fully appreciated.
I'm going to be sticking with this for awhile moving forward. I certainly didn't expect to ever enjoy a Thor solo series this much, so it's a pleasant surprise to find such a smash hit waiting for me in these pages.
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Take a lot of the YouTube specific content and find a way to funnel that onto your television program. Take chances. Be willing to present, promote, and produce these performers in bold, diverse ways.
Stop replying on extended wrestling matches, strictly for the sake of filling/killing time. It's lazy and uninteresting. So your die-hard wrestling analysts are into it. Cool story, bro. But they're going to watch REGARDLESS. It's not like they'll tune out completely if you don't deliver three 30-minute matches every single week.
Utilize more interviews, mini-docs, training montages, and video packages to introduce, debut, and spotlight your key characters.
Remember what makes pro wrestling angles great in the first place. It isn't necessarily "real sports feel", worked shoots, or whateverthefuck. It's much more basic than that.
Hype. Suspense. Anticipation. These key elements are the lifeblood of the promotional business.
Stop obsessing over star ratings, match criticisms, and microscopic details. Focus on building up wrestlers, establishing their identities, and then bringing them into direct contact with one another at a predetermined time & place. That's literally it.
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I see your point, but woof. Those early 97 Raws did very little for me. Not a lot to offer, things were still in disarray, and nothing really kept me invested week to week.
It wasn't until the fallout of Final Four that the storytelling truly stepped up & they started to latch onto ideas with a firmer grip.
The crybaby Bret meltdown, Austin's talking head popping up on the Titan Tron to spew venom & talk shit at BOTH Bret and Shamrock, the LOD and Ahmed combining forces to go all Walking Tall on the Nation, etc. all really had a way of hooking me and reeling me back into that sweet nostalgia spirit.
Shit. If I had that kind of free time anymore, I'd go back and watch some of 97 again right neowww.
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Yeah. Their track record when it comes to that stuff is the worst. See Mark Henry's AMAZING 2002 strongman comeback and how very little they did with that. Fast forward to this year and it's the brightest spot of his super engaging, heartwarming documentary. It totally babyfaces him like no silly, phony Raw segment could ever hope to do.
Regarding Lashley, even if it's a slight exaggeration, they should be all over the bank robbery deal that saw a supposed Olympian hopeful's dreams shattered, etc. You can't (well, their shitty writers can't) make up that sort of stuff.
It's literally gift-wrapped and given to them, yet they do nothing with it.
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3 hours ago, Charles (Loss) said:
She's supposed to be an old-time Southern belle, which is incredibly short-sighted for someone who grew up homeless, whose father died of a drug overdose, and who served in specialized units in the US Marine Corps. I don't understand why those aren't the stories they tell on TV.
Exactly.
It's the same thing that irritates me so much about Lashley. He's got this incredible, inspirational true life story - and they do zilch to capitalize or publicize ANY of it, while they exploit the silliest fake stuff at every turn instead.
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7 hours ago, El-P said:
Austin 98/99 aka recycling shit we've already discussed to death. Really now ? If anything, a good reminder than most of the Austin vs Mr. McMahon stuff after the Dude Love feud was actually complete trash. It's funny how because something was really popular at the time, it gets romanticized as being good.
I did a complete rewatch of the 97/98 Raws back around 2015. And yeah. 97 still holds up strong for the most part. But there's a significant dropoff sometime after SummerSlam 98.
The initial introduction of Mr. McMahon is still incredibly interesting and fresh in its original context. Corporate stooge Dude Love is tremendous fun, too. But the convoluted Taker/Kane backstory bogs things down at the top that summer.
Plus everyone suddenly starts acting like Austin. Swearing and being allowed to put your hands on the boss becomes this commonplace thing. And the moment that is no longer reserved strictly for Stone Cold, I'd argue, is the beginning of the shark-jumping.
It's gradual, for sure. But you can definitely feel the shift. But you're right. Things remained so crazy hot and popular for much, much longer beyond that.
If you're looking to revisit any of that stuff though, the critical peak really runs from March 97 to August 98.
50 minutes ago, Afro Steel said:That's probably the first episode I've just let sit without listening to any of it. So much of the Attitude Era feels well-covered territory, so I'm not sure why we need even more focus on it, especially when it's about the era's biggest star.
Weren't they supposed to do a Bundy episode? I remain disappointed how much of Bruce's earliest WWF years slip under the radar.
Agreed. I really wish they'd stay far away from the Attitude Era stuff for a good, long while now. It's been done to death.
I'd definitely like to hear more from the Saturday Night's Main Event era.
WWE TV 04/22 - 04/26: Institutionalized Insanity
in WWE
Posted
Yeah. I remember hearing Bruce go on about how the idea was for the host to be a non-factor and seem "small" among the guests. You'd figure a Piper fanatic like Prichard would know better.
But that seems to be the company line. Because that's the role they give everyone. They seem to reward gifted talkers with these Piper's Pit knockoffs and then basically cast them as neutered mediators.