Danish Dynamite

You could have 0 left by the top 50 :-) ... No, seriously. I feel your pain!

I am stunned I was not the high vote on Thesz. Concur with all of this. Thesz was as good as anyone at making a wrestling match look competitive. Second all this... But I've only seen 4-5 prime era Thesz matches (and a couple of the ones close to the very end), so couldn't really vote for him (or Buddy Rogers), but really feel like I maybe should have. I can't say I couldn't have him top 25 if there was 20-30 50's matches of his available. Seems like his legendary reputation is well deserved and not historical hyperbole. ... Would also love to see more Gorgeous George. And obviously Bock in the 60's...

6 guys dropped for me today (with five reveals still to come...). Up to 16 in total. But my top 50 is intact, I think.

I have way more time over the weekend than during workdays packed with meetings into the small hours, so I'd prefer a different way than you. But whatever suits Steven.

Ah, fuck it. Had somehow forgotten that Patera fell a long time ago. I'm down 10 guys then.

Really starting to wonder who the highest placed guy I didn't rank will be... I only have two joshi workers (only from a lack of watching, 'cause I like what I've seen) so maybe someone there? Who'll be the highest female wrestler? ... Could be a lucha guy, but I've surprised myself with how high I've rated them. ... Could definetely be a modern era wrestler. Especially if someone like HHH turns out to be loved by a lot and pushed by others to spite that "hive mind" some fear or want to provoke. ... Makes me almost want to change my handle to "Hive Mind", but I'm getting off track... Anyway: I will make it a point to watch the 5 biggest match recommends for whoever is ranked highest, that I didn't include, immediately after the last name is revealed. And I will watch these regardless of wether or not I've seen them before. Fuck it: I'll make it a point to watch 5 matches of everyone in the final top 100 that I didn't rank, to see what I missed or confirm my own list.

9 guys down. Bob Orton Jr. replaces Yatsu as my highest ranked loss so far at #59. And: - No. I definetely don't have HHH. - I have Andre in the top 50, based on work. If it had been on rep, as some say, he'd be top 10 for me and not close to the top 250 for those who've only heard that he stinks. - and oh yeah, Inoki's boring...

Noooo... Saito.... Noooooo...... Didn't expect him to go much higher, but still :-(

I'd agree with that. We can argue over who has how much of it, but it's definitely something to consider. Also agree. It's also build by the opponent helping to sell that aura (wwf kids found Zeus and Nailz scary, so a lot is in the package as well). But s few guys have the aura on their own. Not so much Scott to me, but some of the others, sure. I think Killer Kowalski ruled at this in his day.

I know :-) ... And a true heel isn't someone cool you actually root for. It's someone truly detestable who does awful stuff and makes you hate him, even though you know wrestling is "fun" and "fake"... So jackwebb is now a true heel in my eyes! ... (And yes I'm kidding, and a Scott Steiner #1 rating is both fun, oddly cool, totally head scratching and horrible at the same time, and I love it!)

No, no... Scott Steiner as Greatest wrestler ever is not funny! It's not! Stop laughing! Fucking hell... Yatsu is the first name I'm really sad didn't make the top 100, even though I didn't expect it. And I've lost my list, but will find it tomorrow (1am here), so not quite sure, but think I'm down 5 or 6 guys.

"Only someone this evil can wear velvet that's this smooth!" - The Master Oh yes! Cota is The Master!

Ha! Yes! Roger Moore era Bond for sure. He's one I regret not seeing more of. He barely missed out for me and I like the 7-8 matches I've seen. Came to him a little too late :-(

Totally agree. I personally do give guys a lot if credit for being in great matches. But your point about Austin vs Luger is good. ... I do however think Luger had a couple of years where he was really good and a positive contributor to the great matches he was in.

I was only kidding :-) ... I often agree with JvK, but I would have that particular match quite a bit higher :-) EDIT: Ah... Now I saw JvK's response... So I actually do agree with him... 3,75 seems fair to me. That's a good match.

What? You think his rating is too high? I think it's fair ;-)

Excactly. Inspired by your biglav (and all the FIFA and PM games 1-20 rankings) I used a very simple version just as a guideline.And the point isn't to make it any less subjective to me. 'Cause people would stil grade every number according to their own taste. To me it was more to assure my own rankings wouldn't be based primarily on my mood on the day of ranking, so my list wouldn't be completely different two days later. And so I didn't just completely dismiss someone that I could actually appreciate when giving them a chance, just because I actively hate one aspect of their career. It also helped me keep a few very big vanity picks in check and off the list :-)

Share both your hopes and fears here...

IF WWF is your favorite territory or WWE style wrestling is your favorite type of wrestling, I could easily see somebody putting Bret or HBK or Austin or Cena in their Top Ten. I have maintained all along that the type of wrestling/territory you enjoy would determine rankings. I ranked 4 luchadors in my Top 20. Many more followed. How many luchadors are in Parv's total list? He dismissed shoot style outright. I don't think I had any Japanese women on my list. People have attempted to dismiss the emotional reaction that wrestling provokes and try to make this an exercise in mathematical equations. Completely agree!And it's not a jab at BIGLAV from me, 'cause I love that shit (and it's also wonderfully Parv-personal even though he shocked himself with some rankings). I love WWF! Especially the hated 85-92 years, but also 82-84 and some of 93-96. I dislike few promotions more than WWE. I also absolutely love Mid-Atlantic, NWA/WCW 83-93, all things Mid-South, 80's Memphis, almost 30 years of All Japan, much of AWA and more. And my very personal bias and tastes clearly show. How the hell you guys made me watch, like, partially love and eventually rank Lucha to the extend I have over the past two years of this project, I'll never know. But good job... And maybe you guys are right, that Bret would lose some (many maybe) of his wwf fans if he's had the same career but somewhere else. I still believe he would win a similar amount of new fans (especially on a board like this) if he'd just not been a 90% wwf guy. Not talking about NWA, but if he'd done his 85-89 work on the AWA set he'd shoot up as an undiscovered great and would jump up a lot of lists. But hey, it's completely theoretical and I readily acknowledge the opposing stand :-) Thanks for the reactions to my comment. I really enjoy reading your thoughts on all this. I know only a few wrestling fans here in Denmark, and even the guys who have seen 2000+ matches from a lot of territories and eras still claim Undertaker and Shawn best match ever and both in the all time top 5 workers... So... What a relief this place is, to rank and talk wrestling with guys generallly biased in the same direction as me ;-)

Seeing Pat O'Connor close to Randy Orton and The Big Show... Well... To rank in my list of all wrestlers all time, one match is enough. A masterpiece as your only match will probably get you at around #1000 :-) ... Still I couldn't get myself to rank O'Connor, Buddy Rogers, Lou Thesz or Gorgeous George on the 3-5 prime era matches I've seen of each. It just seemed too glaringly obvious they are candidates for the all time top 25, and placing them at 75-100 seemed disrespectful. Now their final ranking seems disrespectful, so I wish I had included them somewhere. Anywhere :-)

Maybe next time there should be an extra spot for a vanity pick. Someone that won't rank, but then people'll get it out of their system. Could also be fun to see who gets the most vanity pick votes then. I have a solid 98 names I can defend ranking. One very personal nostalgia pick, that I would honestly also have close to the very bottom of my list if it was a top 200. And one pick at #100 that I can partially defend, but not really. And those two vanity picks were (thankfully) my first two soldiers down by a large margin. From then on it starts to get serious :-)

Love the debate here, don't get me wrong. It's very interesting. And I find I agree with vast parts of both Parv's and Steven's points (just picking those two because so much of this debate centers around their argument). At points this seems to be a lot of trying to define a common set of guidelines to vote by. And that is pointless to me, since the setup from the beginning was "whatever makes a wrestler great to you the voter". I thought I disagreed with Steven, when I read it as if he discounted great matches. But he doesn't. At all. He just factors other stuff as well. As does Parv. For me a shitload of great matches was a pro for someone. So was length of peak. So was how much I personally and subjectively enjoyed them (would have counted less if there had been stipulations on what we're trying to rank other than "whatever makes someone great in the eyes of the voter"). So does a lot of stuff. And there is no set in stone rule what counts for more. That differs on a case by case gut feeling. Maybe that devalues my list to some, but I think I'll sleep just fine knowing that and knowing I ranked Bret higher than Kobashi (who I really, really like and also(!) have in my top 10...). Like Parv, I'm not quite into the "what if" scenario for this specific list (love it otherwise). But here's a factor I think is not a "what if" but a clear "what is" that negatively affects Bret to a lot of people (including some of those going after Parv for being down on lucha): On this board a lot of people are down on WWF guys, because they are down on WWF in general. Sure, some just like other stuff based solely on their own tastes. But it seems like a lot of people are down on all things Vinceland maybe because they feel better stuff or stuff they personally like better has been overlooked or hurt by the succes and exposure of one company. Like when people hear a song they like, and then start hating it when everyone else discovers it and it takes all the Grammy's. I never understood that. Shouldn't you still like the song the same? But that's a completely normal reaction. Nothing wrong with that. But I do think that hurts your Bret's, Curt's, DiBiase's, Savage's etc. here. And if there is one "what if" I think is valid here, it's that a guy like Bret would do better on this list if he had the excact same career, matches and everything if he had just had it anywhere other than the WWF. And that is too bad for Bret supporters, but totally fair and understandable. I have a close friend who's watched more wrestling than most on this board (not counting the top 1-2%). But he's very WWF-centric, thinks I'm insane for having four AJPW guys in my top ten, and he would just shake his head at the way people here value wrestling. He would have no fun in taking part in this, as he would be as angry as a few are here and those factions would probably hate each other. So if he started a board and gathered similar thinkers the guys ranking a Misawa in the top 10 would be put through similar stuff as Bret supporters here. I know a lot will be immediately defensive and say shit to effect that they are in no way influenced like that, and they're able to judge objectively, but I haven't heard anyone sound convinving when making that claim. And it's completely fair. I loved it when Parv in a different thread made the comment (when trying to get someone to admit pretty much this excact thing, but in regards to that guy not ranking Flair): Parv basically said he admitted that him not ranking a lot of lucha was because he didn't get Lucha, not because Lucha sucked. So it was a deeply personal reaction. So you can call Steven (or me) insane for ranking Bret higher than KK. And debate it back and forth, which is part of the fun. But in any way trying to claim that it's got nothing to do with your own very personal bias and anti-bias is bullshit. After all, like Johnny said: This is a bunch of guys making lists of what they personally think or like. PS: You're all inferior beings for having almost anyone higher than Bret (my #6, so up to five above him is ok), none of you know shit and I am the oracle who only speaks the true words of the Gods of Asgard!

Didn't rank Matt Borne or Stan Lane, but had hoped they'd end up higher on the final lists :-( ... They're probably in a lot of peoples top 150.

I think Goldberg is a better wrestler than Sydal. You're wrong but you are entitled to your wrong opinion. He's right, but you're entitled to your wrong opinion :-)

:D Scarlet-Left... The Red Rooster at #16? I love your list! It looks nothing like mine, but that's fucking awesome! I've tried so hard to get to like Terry Taylor, but my eyelids just get too damn heavy...