Quentin

It’s probably worth prefacing everything I’m about to say with the fact that Ospreay more than likely makes my top 100 pretty comfortably. I think there is a lot of good about Ospreay, or at least things I give him a lot of credit for. His desire to round out his game was very apparent by 2017. Something like the KUSHIDA BOSJ final from that year was a match at the time I remember being extremely impressed by because even as someone who watched a lot of his work in England, what he showed in that match wasn’t necessarily something I thought he showed in 2014-2016. He’s firmly one of the best bases I’ve ever seen. Some of the stuff I’ve seen him be able to base for with wrestlers who frankly aren’t very athletic and probably had no business attempting those moves, only were able to pull them off because it was Ospreay they were doing it to. He works SUPER hard night in and night out. Every New Japan tour stop or tourney, it always felt like he was busting his ass and I do give him a lot of points for that. A lot of issues that people I frequently talk about wrestling with have with Ospreay, I don’t always agree with but I don’t think it’s 100% rooted in wanting to be a “hater” or to be a contrarian just for the sake of pushing back on something people love. The selling gripes with Ospreay go beyond the idea of limb selling. It’s the space between big spots that are supposed to feel important that a lot of people feel like aren’t given the time to breathe or matter the way they’re being presented. There are absolutely people who will harp on his limb selling, but that’s not the entire crux of why people point to that as a flaw of his. As he bulked up and started to put more into his striking, he became a guy I did like watching in control during matches, because his offense was so great. Beyond the outwardly stunning stuff, something like his back breaker became really AJ Styles-esque. With that, I feel like he became extremely ambitious in trying to have these longer, epic matches with people who he has no business trying those things with like Ricky Knight Jr or Michael Oku or Shota Umino or Yota Tsuji. I’ve seen all of that RevPro run from the pandemic and on and it’s not something that bolsters his case at all. I understand the attempts to “make” those guys, but it all ultimately falls flat for me because it’s the biggest example of it feeling like Ospreay’s bigger=better mindset than finding ways to work around their limitations and making it just as effective. I’m a Bryan number 1 voter and this is one of the main criticisms I’ll see towards him so it’s not just an Ospreay ding. Another thing that is sort of dishonest to not mention when discussing him is the very legitimate reasons why people don’t like him. We don’t have to rehash all of it, but some of the stuff isn’t just petty grudge holding. Especially when Will is best equipped to work as a babyface, not being able to buy in because of not liking the traits he’s shown as a person is more than fair. If someone said Will was the best wrestler of the last 5, going on 6, years, I’m not really going to push back on that a lot. My issue is the sort of manner in which it’s said, that if you don’t feel this way about Ospreay you’re just a hater or you’re not paying attention or denying greatness. Over this span of time I think people like Darby, Danielson, Moxley, Kingston and a few others all have compelling cases for this. Even with European peers like Zack or WALTER as you mentioned, I’ll have both of them ranked as well and probably above Ospreay or at the very least they’ll be close to each other. Huge disagree on their best matches being with Ospreay, though with Zack I can understand that sentiment more. I don’t think that WALTER vs Ospreay match is even a top 15 WALTER match.

haven’t updated this in awhile, but felt like a good time to revisit this thread since the first PID episode in 2 years. I was joined by Ethan (@ethanmacandcheese on X and Four Pillars of Hell on YouTube) to talk all things shoot style. The history and its origins, the stylistic differences between all the key promotions, the eventual fizzling out of the genre and what really factored into it, and the inextricable link to Inokism. https://share.transistor.fm/s/083a562d

I’ve gone through a lot of Santito stuff the last few weeks and him over Casas is becoming a very possible thing for me as well. The dude just floors me every single time in a way only a handful of guys do. Absolutely magical pro wrestler, no other way I can describe him.

As I was thinking about the pillars the other day, I might’ve convinced myself on a Taue as the best pillar case between how long he was great (15-16 years), being the best tag worker of the 4 in my mind, and the variety of roles and performances from him over that course of time. I had him as top half guy before pretty safely but now it’s becoming “wait, am I sure he’s not a top 15 contender?”. I didn’t really plan on going back to All Japan or 2000s NOAH any time soon but that epiphany probably threw a wrench in those plans.

Another big riser for me. Didn’t see any Buddy before we turned ballots in and he was the first person I dug in to after and I was blown away. At his best, one of like four people where I thought they were the best I’ve ever seen at their peak. Going from not being on my list last time and now being one of the only locks for “territory guys” to make my list is about as ringing an endorsement I can give.

Since 2016, we’ve gotten really good Ki stuff in MLW vs Fenix and Thatcher, his tag match with WALTER facing Starr and Devlin was fantastic and had maybe the best match of Sami Callihan’s Triple H run as AAW champion. Not sure if it moves Ki up for me at all but it at least means his spot is safe and that he still is delivering on an elite level in big spots.

Hadn’t seen enough BattlArts the last time I voted to have him but I’ve grown to totally adore the dude. From the PWFG stuff to his wXw weekend last year, it’s rare to find any Ishikawa match that I don’t love Ishikawa in. Very much someone in play for my top 10, but he won’t be dropping any further than top 20.

Would also add the Liger vs Eita match from the first round of that 2016 Super J Cup for great Liger 2010s stuff

For me the issue with 2nd run Brock isn’t the way of the quality of his matches or performances, more often than not Brock usually delivers something I enjoy other than the Braun Strowman egg. The problem is I find his booking totally antithetical to how the basics of storytelling within American wrestling work and because of that, it drastically affects the rest of the product in an overwhelmingly negative way. Brock isn’t presented as an “ace” in the way that you saw Cena, Backlund and Hogan fending off all comers. He’s a freak athlete bully who does what he wants, with no regard for anyone else. He’s a monster, and basic storytelling shows that you build a monster up so they can be slain by a conquering hero rising up the ranks. But the way Brock is presented and used doesn’t allow for that kind of storytelling to be done on an effective level. And it’s not like WWE as a company forgot how to do that during his run. They were able to build up Bray Wyatt and Rusev so they could be overcame by Cena. And maybe people enjoy Brock for his push being a subversion of wrestling tropes in terms of style AND booking. Maybe WWE should have changed the way the entire company works to mold around how they used Brock, but when the rest of the show is business as it always has been and then Brock’s credibility isn’t lent as effectively as it could be to to complete other stories, it effects him for me in a way I’m not sure I can detach his work from.

Matt how do you feel about Brock’s work when he was abiding by the rules in his first run? I would still argue between the Rock, Undertaker, Cena, Benoit, Rey, Angle, Guerrero matches he still jumped off the page and that work holds up tremendously. Granted it’s only a 2 year run so he didn’t have to face the problems that eventually become of guys who have to adapt to not being a fresh new face anymore and navigating the weekly TV landscape 5-10 years in. And this isn’t a project based off theoretical scenarios but based off the Brock we got in that time frame, I think we’re still talking about an all time level talent if he’s not the Brock we know who completely bucked their structure in the 2nd run. Maybe he’s not as high as people have him now but all the aspects I like most about Brock are very much present in 2002-2004.

When I was doing the preparation for the top 101 matches of the 2010s shows, every Brock match I revisited still felt just as special as it did in the moment. There’s a certain type of shock and awe to a Brock match while you’re watching it unfold in real time but on playback stuff like Brock’s timing, his cut offs, how masterful his near falls are, his all time level selling, keep his work as stuff you want to watch over and over again.

Fred Yehi Baffling this guy hasn’t gotten more opportunities the last 3 years but someone who’s individual performances in a match have never disappointed me. One of the most unique people to come out of that peak EVOLVE era. Very low key amount of longevity, he’s having matches I would call very good going back to 2012. Wish he got to do more but one of my favorites of the last few years who I think highly of enough to sneak on at #100 Fred Yehi vs Slim J: NWA Anarchy Hardcore Hell 3/28/15 Fred Yehi vs DJZ: EVOLVE 92 6/2/17 Fred Yehi vs Brian Cage: FIP Ascension 2/11/17

No for right now but with the trajectory his AEW run has shown so far, someone to keep an eye on as 2026 looms closer. Barring a freak injury or a sudden lack of push, he’ll have a strong case as a lower half guy.

I think Shelley deserves some reevaluation after having some stuff during the last few years that help his case as a singles guy like the Lee Moriarty and Gresham matches. His tag teams with Sabin and KUSHIDA were consistently awesome and as I keep digging through IWA-MS stuff, in 2003 the dude having killer stuff with Claudio and the Jacobs feud has been great. He may not have any super high end stuff but this idea I’ve seen that he doesn’t have strong enough singles work is complete nonsense. He’s no guarantee for my list but if I keep coming away loving his singles matches, it’ll be hard for me to not have him.

I’m already considering Gresham as a 80-100 guy and I can see that case only growing in the next 5 years. Gresham has been fantastic for a good amount of time now, I would say he’s been great since 2012. One of the best tag workers of his generation between stuff with Jay Skillet, Chris Brookes and Jay Lethal. Can do it all like pick the pace of his style up and do more flashy and athletic spots as babyface with really infectious fire. As a heel, can be cocky and surgical in his control segments and can even stooge better than a lot of people. Flawless execution on everything that he does with the ability to seamlessly weave in his athletic spots with elite mat work and I think he’s added the “classic” matches to his resume with his stuff against Zack Sabre Jr and Jay Lethal.

As I read through this talk about Steamboat’s ‘89 Japan stuff, my prevailing thought was how much better suited he probably would be for extensive Mexico work than tours of Japan based off what I think his biggest strengths are. I don’t think there’s any worker in Japan from Steamboat’s great years I’d want to see face Steamboat face as much as I’d LOVE to see him vs Perro Aguayo.

I wouldn’t fight anyone who would call his Regal match a classic and I think all the Generico stuff is always special and worthy of MOTYC talks. I also think very highly of the Claudio vs Hero match that goes 40 with a broken top rope. One of the most impressive matches of the decade.

Yeah I’m with GOTNW here. I’ve liked Sugiura for a long time, really enjoyed his junior run and stuff he’s done as far back as the 2001 Otsuka match and is great and feels ready to be a top guy by the time his heavyweight push comes. He’s been largely good, maybe a tad inconsistent over the past 6 year but still is game to have a match that will make MOTY list like the 2017 Nakajima match or the Go match from last year. In total we have a guy who may not have the highest highs like KENTA, Kobashi, Akiyama, that may lead you to a match being all time great but when you look in totality, this is probably the best wrestler in NOAH history and that does matter to me when compiling a list like this.

Love Sekimoto, made my list last time and will make it again but I don’t think his work in the last 5 years is substantial enough to have him move up and the more I dive in to other candidates, could see him slide down a few spots.

So nearly 7 years later, I feel pretty safe in saying that Thatcher is a total lock for me, with a really high ceiling on where he could end up

I agree, I was just going with the structure with which Elliott framed his question, because for someone who's maybe not as high on Bryan as we are or may have some gaps in viewing, the "20 years of being great" could be something you want some clarification on. I can admit as a adamant Bryan number 1 guy that some of that can be a little intense so that analogy might be a more digestible way to view it. As Mania was going on, I went looking for Bryan stuff from the early 00s and realized that ECCW comp of him on YouTube. May do reviews for the matches here but no one hold me to that.

I would say 2006-2007 is when Bryan becomes that type of guy you’re referring to Elliott, and is very safely that in 2008. 1999-2004 you could say a variety of people were realistically having better years like all those folks you named for 2001, even among contemporaries there’s never a point where he’s CLEARLY above let’s say Joe or Ki until later on. That being said, from 2001 I’d still definitely take him in a top 50 guy in the world, MAYBE top 60 and in 2002 he improved that position by quite a bit. A lot of 2003-2004 for Bryan is spent being an undercard guy in New Japan while Joe is getting in to his legendary run. 2003 is harder to justify for him unless you’re really high on the New Japan but he has a MOTYC with Paul London that’s as good as most of the best stuff from the year. 2004 I would say is his best year to that point for him, 5 years in. 2005 is a great year for him and maybe when the tide starts to turn and the “Bryan is the BITW” contingent starts to come alive, but you still have Joe, AJ, KENTA and others being in the mix. I feel pretty safe calling him top 5 in the world at that point though. After that, I personally feel 2006-2009 is pretty clear for him but someone like Chris Hero is coming in to his own, John Cena’s legendary 2007, Hiroshi Tanahashi’s run during this stretch, KENTA’s strong 2009 could have a claim argued. But really once Joe is full drowning in TNA and that next wave of guys is still figuring things out, Bryan was pretty clearly thought of as the best in the world. 2010-2011 is weird with the firing/rehiring but the indie work when he’s gone from WWE is mostly fantastic and he looks like he’s among the elite workers in the world still. 2011 is weird because he’s stuck on SmackDown doing the most he can being given scraps for most of the year but you watch him and still see a guy that you could still rank as a top 40-50 guy that year, but the likes of Claudio and Hero are at the top during those years. 2012-2013 he’s fantastic but you could argue for quite a few people like Negro Casas, Tanahashi, Okada, CM Punk, LA Park, El Generico, WALTER but again he’s not dropping out of the top 10 during that time period. 2014-2015 is extremely limited with the injuries but the work we do have is great and gets all time miracles out of people with the time he did have. Not enough to be in strong consideration for any year but I fully believe that in good health, Bryan continues to be a top 20 guy in the world at minimum even with AJ Styles, Chris Hero, Roderick Strong, Timothy Thatcher, Zack Sabre Jr, Biff Busick, etc coming in to prominence. From 2018 to now, even with the limited work he has done performing on sort of a part time schedule, he reinvents himself again and has a heel run that not only has maybe the best matches between him and AJ Styles or a stellar Brock Lesnar match that I think warrant him as a top 20-30 guy at least, the culmination of that reign is making a career mid carder in Kofi Kingston the hottest thing going in to WrestleMania 35 in 2019 and having one of the best babyface title wins in wrestling history. The rest of his 2019 leaves something to be desired but he makes another non sense tag team work with Erick Rowan, he has a great match with Adam Cole on the SmackDown when the talent was stuck in Saudi Arabia and he’s still delivering when given chances on TV. 2020 he has the excellent match with Drew Gulak and all time miracle performance against The Fiend. Through the transition to no crowds, one of the few people in the WORLD who wasn’t severely effected by this change when it came to his wrestling. The best wrestler in the world that year is either Shingo or one of the AEW guys like Darby, Moxley or Omega, but I don’t think Bryan drops in any major way. Again not the best wrestler in the world hands down but comfortably would make a top 50. And now in 2021, he’s been off to a fantastic start with all his TV stuff being awesome and the Reigns match being fantastic. Who knows what the future will hold after Mania, but right now I’d say he’s in contention for WOTY. So yeah I think the Duncan analogy is apt. The biggest Bryan fans will even tell you it’s not like 1984-1985 Michael Jordan coming and sweeping everyone off their feet. It’s a guy who was really good immediately and kept improving and improving at a rapid pace and then you look up and say “oh yeah, MVP for him isn’t crazy”.

The AJ Styles match from G1 2014 is also a top 3 match from AJ’s New Japan run for me

Kenny I thought was a strong wrestler as early as 2009 in PWG and HDNet ROH, matches I really enjoyed against the Bucks, Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, Christopher Daniels and Austin Aries. The Ibushi Budokan match is what people think of mostly when it comes to his DDT run but a lot of my favorite stuff came from him facing people like HARASHIMA, Shigehiro Irie, and El Generico. Golden Lovers was a great team and they were super instrumental in the development of newer DDT stars like Konosuke Takeshita and Tetsuya Endo with their series. The All Japan junior run extremely fun, having a legitimately incredible match with KAI and a memorable match with a guy like Hiroshi Yamato. He’s really fun in his first NJPW appearances in BOSJ and teaming with Ibushi. The full time NJPW run is interesting because I think the initial Cleaner run as a junior gets underrated, but most of his matches other than the Taguchi stuff is good vs Dorada, Shelley, Sydal and KUSHIDA. Then we get to his run as a main eventer in New Japan and I echo sentiments that in that run he’s part of matches I would call some of the best I’ve ever seen, the Dominion 2017 match is on the short list on matches I would consider being the best ever. His AEW run has been weird character wise but for the most part the in ring has been great over there too, the crown jewel being the PAC iron man match. If you don’t like Kenny, I get it. He’s not particularly great as a babyface or a heel, as talented as he is. If you’re someone who’s critical of a Kobashi or HBK, you may think he’s a worse version of those two with his overacting or facials. But I see a guy who’s been great 12 years so far with more to give still, someone who was great as a top star in 3 major companies and maybe the single most impactful non WWE contracted person on wrestling in the last 20 years. And that latter point may not matter to everyone when compiling a list like this, you may also argument his impact was for the worst, but it’s something that’s hard for me to separate from a Kenny case.

I would actually give Bryan’s 2015 for how long we have him more credit. Obviously no chance of him being the WOTY, but the time we have of him, he’s pretty great and he came back not missing a beat. It wound up being a pretty strong WWE year in general, but there’s no reason to think that if he isn’t forced to retire, he’s not right there in the mix for the top of the heap based off the trajectory he had. Even the matches being saddled with 2015 Big Show and Kane are as good as you could realistically hope for and he has some incredible performances like the Smackdown tag gauntlet and the FastLane match with an unproven Roman Reigns.