David Mantell

Like Kent Walton said, some tag bouts are good wrestling and some degenerate into fights. This was more the latter. It was from the same Bedworth TV taping as the match where Nagasaki hypnotised Brookside and was probably on last to send the crowd home happy. (It was also the final All Star bout on ITV - after this there was a WWF episode, one last Joint Promotions episode headlined by Pat Roach Vs Caswell Martin and then The Final Bell. Reportedly this episode was briefly in question as the IBA were none too happy about said hypnotism angle.) Although a slug- and punch it does have nice opening and equalising scores - Jones's folding press and Murphy 's gator. The folding press does create some problems for later in the bout - Murphy's DQ should have been the decider (if his gator counted) or the second straight if it didn't, so why the extra session? South gets DQd also to make it 3-1 apparently! Having said that Murphy throws a great Disqualified Heel strop afterwards threatening to hospitalise Jones next time they meet, almost as good as McManus in the Saint match. South and Jones would meet again a decade later with the crowd on the other side as the Legend Of Doom beat Jones (who went arrogant heel in 1992) for the World Mid Heavyweight Championship May 1999 at Bristol's Colston Hall.

One slight snag with the above. This also had a decent if not gigantic crowd and it's from 2003 (FFCP, starring an older Marc Mercier.) Correction, it was IWSF. The FFCP was not revived until 2006, Marc Mercier was still buddies with Flesh and Jacky back then. I assume IWSF also promoted Le Petit Prince's retirement match in 2001 against Claude Rocas.

Ah, I was wondering who this Rick Hunter was. I guessed he would have some Don Owen linage if he was from Portland (it's not the sort of thing that would have occurred to him, I doubt he knew about Owen or PNW beyond anything Hunter had told him about his local scene back home.)

OK I'll be honest, I hadn't spotted that either on first viewing so that makes two of myself and Kent. I'll have to check up on Martin Conroy's claim at the end that McManus had been "doing that for years." (how many good guys would be on their second and final for that to work for a heel like Mick? ) I'd still say it's structured like how a DQ finish should be, the fouling gradually building to a crescendo where the heel has proved himself/herself utterly incompliant with the rules due to being utterly out wrestled and you can see that same structure in the Haystacks vs Rasputin and Haystacks & Daddy Vs Viedor and Szackacs matches I posted in that other thread quoted above. UPDATE: Nothing in Tony Earnshaw's late 70s book to say if McManus had pulled similar stunts in previous bouts.

The discussion about DQs was here on page 5 of the "Why is America always assumed to be the centre of the wrestling universe?" thread. Posted November 22, 2023 As for DQs, done the right way it can be very satisfying to see the heel sent packing in disgrace on a third public warning: Current MC Laetitia Dixon-Allmark is particularly good at this - I have seen her lead All Star audiences in chants of "OUT! OUT! OUT!" at DQ'd and protesting heels.

Can't find a review of this bout but I do remember quite a bit of discussion about DQ finishes on here. How to do a disqualification finish properly and leave the public happy. * Have the blue eye dominate until the villain has to resort to dirty wrestling * Have the heel gradually get penalised for their fouls * One last nasty foul to finally top it off * Once DQd the baddie has to throw a strop like John McEnroe and really work the crowd into a jeering frenzy. Like the Finlay match. it's not the best possible use for Johnny Saint but it's a great vehicle for the heel, whether they get away with it (Finlay) or get a comeuppance (McManus).

The difference is that Italy and Spain's Old School scenes had died out in 1965 and 1975 respectively whereas (International) Wrestling Stars (Federation) has roots going back to 1979 and its top headliners were not ex -WWFers but Trad French old timers who first made their name on terrestrial TV- Monsieur Jacky (TV debut 1971) Flesh Gordon (TV debut 1979) Prince Zefy (TV debut 1985-1987). About their next biggest stars at that time were Scott Rider (around by the 1990s) and masked men Cybernic Machine and Bad Mask who followed in the Delaportesque tradition of Les Piranhas, Mambo Le Primitiv and Les Maniaks (and whose names were broken English). Survivors of the old days or else new stars built in the tradition of that later period. It was the same in old school Britain by the late Noughties - the biggest stars of All Star, RBW and Premier were ITV 1980s veterans Robbie Brookside, Drew McDonald, Karl Kramer, Blondie Barrett, Keith Myatt, Steve Prince, Steve Grey, Mal Sanders and Johnny Kidd were still sporadically around) early 90s wonderkid James Mason and the Hanley crowd (Dean Allmark, Robbie Dynamite, Mikey Whiplash etc) who had started with the dubious GBH in 2000 before being retrained from scratch by All Star's veteran crew and going on to dyed in the wool neo Old School careers. All Star in the UK and WS/IWSF in France are fairly similar companies except the French one (or its Belgian affiliate) seems to have had some more TV post-1980s along the way, although details are sketchy. (But apart from my memory of seeing it advertised online, Marc Mercier mentions them getting TV in that feature article on the French scene I posted on here months back.)

One slight snag with the above. This also had a decent if not gigantic crowd and it's from 2003 (FFCP, starring an older Marc Mercier.)

Fair enough. It makes more sense than El-P's suggestion that it's a simple case of the circus coming to town and attracting a big audience through sheer novelty. All Star's post TV boom in Britain was given a similar shot in the arm through the WWF/WCW boom while the still considerable popularity of Trad British wrestling in turn smoothened the way for the American boom far more effectively than the popularity of the US territories could pave the way for the WWF's original 80s WWF boom. Now if we can just find an explanation of how Wrestling Stars or the IWSF as it then was drew that hefty looking house, mostly kids and teenagers by the looks of it, in FYR Macedonia - and what it was being filmed for ... One clue we have is that there WAS some sort of TV show relating to IWSF's Belgian affiliate Eurostars. I know this because I remember seeing their website in the Noughties.

Bump - check those audiences out. Pretty big for a "dead" scene. I'd still love to know what TV outlets Eurostars had even in France/Belgium to start with, (let alone FYR Macedonia)

Anyway, that was October 1989. Getting away with talking Old School French Catch. A few months either side of Roger Delaporte retiring from promoting with all his old talent on New Catch and accessible to any UK TV Set capable of getting the WWF on Sky. They did have to put on All Star versus WWF Jobbers as dark match or two on the same British shows. Pity they didn't have similar employment laws in France to get Flesh, Jacky, Jessy, Zefy etc some work at the Bercy. Clearly Guy Mercier didn't think of that when he got the Catcheurs intermittent worker status and all their other rights.

Dug around in cupboard under stairs. No luck. Checked YouTube. Match not on there. Dug some more in cupboard. Found it. VHS player still working. Zipped through Snuka matches, checked out Hart/Bravo from the first ever WWF show, zipped through HH promoting NHB in Brussels. Stopped at Hayes in front of a greenscreened Eiffel Tower. Hayes says he's going to tell us about Paris and some of his old haunts and the stories about Paris he CAN tell us (as opposed to the ones he can't because Rebel Ray Hunter is not under a Legends contract and neither are Delaporte and Bollet ...) Arc de Triomphe, Louvre, Notre Dame etc. Quasimodo gets a mention so that's one catcher namechecked. Similar guide to London - Buck House, the same Parliament stock footage used for Summerslam 92. The Axeman from the Pallos 1991 video gets a mention. Goes into a profile of Jimmy Hart. FFWD ... Ah here we go. People who complain about Flesh Gordon and his Dolly Birds, at least FG's DBs don't wear Silly Wigs like Vince's ones do. (Although given what we now know about Vince, a Silly Wig or two might be useful for keeping their hair clean.) Silly Wig girls carry placards. Raymond looks like Finlay with that tache and mullet. Even . Gorilla mentions the wigs. A year earlier Akeem 's Silly Wig girl had a placard with his slave name One Man Gang on it. Hayes reckons there are 30K in Bercy. Hayes says the Frnch people know their wrestling, they "haven't changed since WE used to wrestle there 20 years ago" (1969 was the year Gorilla turned babyface and aligned with Bruno in the WWF. Not sure if Hayes was in America by then.) Hayes mentions the Palais de Sport (sic) which sounds like a mashup of the Cirque d'Hiver and the Elysée Montmartre. Gorilla says the promoter at PDS was a bit dodgy. Alex Goldstein Phil has already vouched for. Name checking Edouard Carpentier was as natural for Gorilla as name checking the Bulldogs, Regal, Adams etc was natural for Americans a few decades younger challengesd to name British wrestlers. The one(s) who made it in America. Lazy really. Some vague mention of Les Flics. Generic play by play..Heel heat, false tag, hot tag to Marty. Jimmy interference, Rockers win, back to the studio to introduce DiBiase's first match with Blade RunnerRock in nearly 4 years. Okay, thanks for giving me an excuse for checking the VHS player still works.

(I'm looking for that wonderful word Francochard or whatever that El-P used earlier in the thread, but not having much luck.) I'll dig out my VHS copy of World Tour 1990 and have a listen myself and let you know exactly what Gorilla said.

One more Finlay match. As I've said, Finlay's brutalising ways over smaller opponents soon caught the attention of Joint Promotions ' ultimate neutraliser of heels who starred turning up at the end of Finlay's early 1986 TV matches to issue challenges just as he did with Haystacks a couple of years earlier. The blowoff, as I mentioned, came in Cup Final Day 1986 Finlay doesn't get the Big Splash and he astonishingly gets up from the (legit dangerous) Double Elbow backdrop which Bret Hart says Max C would pay opponents bonus money to take. He also kips up nearly from a Daddy bodycheck although Daddy manages to distract Finlay so that Collins can get a fall.. In the end Finlay gets the nearest thing to a table bump you could get away with on ITV, landing on top of Kent Walton 's monitors, leaving Daly to take the Daddy Splash. Amusing but to look out for - out of the ring fighting was NOT tolerated in Britain especially not on ITV at this point (the Kendo/Myers ladder match deliberately contains some "American style" ringside fighting to soften viewers and the iBA up for the WWF specials.) and so referee and former Barons tag team member with Ian Gilmour on both sides of the Channel, Jeff Kaye goes out to restrain Daddy and ends up riding around on his back!

Been rewatching this one and noticed something about the ring. I think it's actually an old school Catch ring as seen on earlier TV with a nice new white ring apron and matching Cushions De Protection covering over the old red strappy CDPs Bernard Marionnaud (as named on the ring aprons) was a Fermnch perfumer. That's his company's emblem on the CDPs. Interesting choice of sponsor for a "vulgar" "plebian" sport, but there you go.

The CWA as Wanz and Willhelm cannibalised it out of the IBV always was a heavyweight territory (like Paul Lincoln Promotions or like the whole of American Wrestling come to that) which restricted Finlay 's scope to do his Bully angle but on the plus side made him work harder technically. It's good to see The Finlays try their double act out in a different territory. Notably they get to do their spot, banned by ITV, where Paula accidentally slaps FF when the double teamed opponent moves out of the way. I like the bit between rounds where he starts doing bodybuilding poses while she is fanning him off with a towel. Only a pity we don't have Orig Williams's English commentary on here "a MMMMOVE for a MMMMOVE!!!" etc. Also it's on there that Orig claims Charlie Verhulst as Zrno's trainer which was queried on the French Catch thread by @Indikator who said it was Michael Ujevic.

I don't think it's Saint's personal commitment to clean wrestling that was the drawing card with him, rather the overall profusion of skilled technical work he and an opponent could come up with. The opponent's own technical skills would be what gave the broth it's different flavours. In this regard it took two to tango. Much as I love Khader Hassouni's tag matches in French Catch teamed with Jean Corne or Le Petit Prince , I've always found his FA Cup Final world lightweight title shot a bit lacklustre through no fault of Saint. Also blue-eye versus heel and the concomitant crowd working can cramp Saint's style somewhat. He and Finlay get away with it as that was more a vehicle for Finlay the heel than Saint the scientist but with other rulebreakers that can be a distraction: The bout I wanted to post which sadly isn't on YouTube is the Camcorder recording of Johnny Saint Vs Soldier Boy Steve Prince from the early 90s. Prince played a slightly hapless comedy "Military Man" heel character and kept breaking off from wrestling with Saint to complain to the referee that his escapes somehow constituted foul tactics. It really is a bit of a misuse of Saint. (No disrespect to Steve Prince, a nice bloke and fellow old schoolie. He did go on to become British Welterweight Champion in 1993 as well as winning the British Tag Team Championship with Vic Powers - albeit possibly as a result of an audible called where champion the Liverpool Lads legitimately clashed heads - if you've seen Robbie Brookside's Video Diary which I think I posted earlier you'll know the incident) So instead I'll post a different example of Saint having to play straight man to a loud heel and his heelish antics. Saint does do a lot of good moves including the same literal tying up in knots we saw Vasilios Montopolos do on the French Catch thread but he has to make space for Sid's heeling antics and be the outraged hero and it's not really what he excelled at: I don't watch enough modern WWE to be aware of Michael Cole's overall style as a commentator but if Kent Walton said that about anybody (except an exception brutal heel perhaps) it would be intended - and taken- as a major compliment.

Weird finish to the first fall. Hassouni is thrown out of the ring and knocked unconscious. Normally the ref should give a Knockout (countout) count - which would either give Tejero and Remy the win in a 1KO tag or if it was a 2KO tag one fall plus Hassouni eliminated leaving Le Petit Prince to face Les Mechants under handicap tag rules for the remaining two falls. (A French fan who grew up with French Catch could confirm which was generally used - in Britain both were used and it would be noted which system was in force during the MC's instructions. 2KO became more prevalent in the 80s.) But instead of any Knockout count, Le Petit Prince and a second submit on Hassouni's behalf then carry him back to the corner around the outside of the ring. where they freshen him up and send him out to fight fall 2. Les Bons are thus able to continue the match with both team members! By the way, some French Vocabulary - "Le Cushion De Protection" = The Corner Pad.

The second one I think we've talked about in the past on here about both bouts. mansour was one of two brothers who were lead babyfaces in Lebanon, a former post-WW1 French protectorate that probably developed a local scene from imported French Catch kinescopes. Hassouni was just a few months short of his trip to Britain and unsuccessful shot at Johnny Saint's World Lightweight title screened on 1977 FA Cup Day WOS.

Fit lets his squaw keep HIM in line as she is Coach and she negatively as well as positively motivates him to get the job done and he knows it and in the end appreciates it.

Was going to pull up on this as Tyson Fury was 13 going 14 in 2002 until I figured out this was you coming back at the end. I was on 1stopwrestling.co.uk from pretty near the beginning - it was a struggle to have an old school discussion on there while under siege from young FWA fan trolls for whom Old School was an "antiquated" abomination that needed to be wiped out and that they, by way of disruptive posting, were the front line in this fight. To some extent however this was fans marking out for the idea that the heel was seeking an easy outlet for a sadistic beatdowns by taking a match like this. This was encouraged by Finlay's pre-match promos "Look what they're sending in against me today! A Lightweight! I EAT LIGHTWEIGHTS and I'm going to EAT Johnny Saint this afternoon!" Finlay was by no means a superheavyweight but his run as a bully in 1986 that drove Big Daddy into a crusade to straighten him out established him with a reputation as someone who deliberately took on lighter wrestlers to beat down on them for his jollies. I'm not surprised an American critic preferred this to one of Saint's clean matches. It shows that American -style ring psychology was not unknown in Britain, it was just reserved for hero versus villain match such as this, which was easier for American fans to relate to. I do have sympathy for OJ's suggestion that Finlay wasn't properly showing his skills during this period. I would only argue that there was a valid reason why, relating to how he was being pushed. Also that he and Paula got real heat rather than just being an irritant. He does get more to do here than he does in bouts against less experienced lighter men. In Danny Collins's case it was building slowly to a day when Collins could inflict a serious defeat on Finlay and get even. (This finally occurred in 1989, a year too late for television.) In this bought, yes he's in against a lightweight but it's the best darn lightweight on the planet to keep him on his toes. Obviously from Saint's perspective a blue-eye Vs heel match is not the best vehicle for his skills as he has to work the crowd rather than get on with employing his technical skill.

I'm surprised this match never got a review on here before (although I myself posted it to the "Why is America always assumed to be the centre of the wrestling universe" thread. Of all Finlay's late 80s bouts this is probably the quintessential one. One again he's on with a much lighter man, except said lighter man is the best Lightweight on the planet (temporarily separated from his title by a heelish Mike Jordan.) In particular the finish is a study in the strengths and limitations of the Mountevans Rules. By now Finlay has quit Crabtreeland and gone to All Star and taken up a whole episode in late 87 beating Chic Cullen in cuts for the British Heavy Middleweight Championship. This was taped at the same Croydon January 1988 show as the Kendo/Rocco breakup. (I had the local newspaper advert for years. I may still have it stuffed away.) Sadly the pre-match promos are missing with Finlay giving it American style trash talking as Paula smirks by his side while Saint talks no nonsense Manchester bloke like a sly old poacher about how he'll take the big braggart down. Finlay 's entrance is a real show of flamboyance in a British scene commonly accused of lacking such things, with Paula's gold spangly dress and Native American headdress making her a focal point next to Finlay's beefy frame and cloverleaf tights and green spangly waistcoat. Unlike Saint's clean match opponents who just take being reversed gamely. Finlay roars with rage whenever a hold is reversed on him. He still does a nice roll on the mat and some interesting combination holds in the earlier rounds. Referee Bob Collins, an old heel is a cross little man here chastising Finlay on his rule ending. A bad landing by Finlay at the end of Round 1 gets a roar of joy from the crowd. Finlay goes for a chicken wing crossface in round 2 but can't lock it off. Sarcastic "AHH" from the crowd when he goes to Paula to massage his fingers. Possibly a botch at the end of Round 2, as the Saint Lady of the Lake sequence goes on after the bell for aaaages, whereas I suspect it was only meant to overrun by a second or two. Finlay up to dirty tricks in Round 3, masterfully hides a closed fist punch from the referee. (Thought - hiding a closed fist was to the UK what hiding a foreign object was in America.). Finlay is sunset flipped and has to resort to a blatant punch to the head to escape. This gets him a first public warning (in America a Babyface could do this and it would be good clean wrestling.) Dirty Dave even gets in a few stops on the mat while the ref turns to notify the timekeeper of the public warning! Saint gets a hope spot with a series of high backdrops until Finlay catches him on one and makes it into a fireman's carry suplex (his specialty) for the opener, stopping off to lay some vebals in the pinned Saint, as does Paula who audibly calls saint "Boy" . South London crowd are hopping mad. Saint scores the equaliser, rocking Finlay with a series of dropkicks before bouncing him off the ropes into a folding press. Cue the high point for Finlay haters, after letting loose on Saint and the ref, Paula turns round on her man, tells him off and refuse Finlay a kiss ! "Do what I say, boy!" she commands him. It seems it's the negative motivator Finlay needs - "That's YOUR doing, now I'll get you" he roars at Saint. It doesn't really get him far, at one point he is thrown out, Paula is by her site and the camera is right there to catch her jawing with ringsiders. The end comes at the break between rounds 5 and 6. Finlay attacks Saint and Saint grabs him, raises a fist and looks for crowd permission to retaliate. But Palace grabs Saint's hand allowing Finlay to throw him to ringside. The whole performance lands Finlay with a second and final PW at the start of round 6 but Saint injured his shoulder on the landing and Finlay takes advantage with arm armbar. Saint resist so Finlay tightens it up for the winning submission, his between bell attack having won him the match and the rules powerless to stop it. Crowd are enraged and Finlay sloshes oil on the flames. Finally gets his kiss from Paula and most ostentatiously too. They pose right opposite the hardcam and Finlay emphasizes that "Princess Paula keeps me clear!" Hen pecked hardman he may be but, infuriatingly for the fans the hen pecking keeps him a winner just like the dirty tactics do.

Actually no. It got moved to lunchtime in 1985 just a while before the end of World of Sport and there it stayed until the bitter end.

(honourable exception: Doug) Worse still Andre Baker under encouragement from Fin Martin and much of the Smart crowd you mentioned in your Dirt Bike Kidiot article, was trying to divert the flow of young talent away from the traditional scene in an attempt to kill it off. He said in his interview with Fin for pre-Powerslam SOW that he would rather kids not be in the business than be involved in the Traditional British scene, a quote Fin highlighted.

The name EWF smacks of Orig. See also BWF (mk2, not the 1960s Paul Lincoln et al one) and WWF in 1974 five years before VJM dumped the second and WWF again on an early 1983 Reslo edition with the angle where rival World Heavyweight Championship claimants Wayne Bridges and Tony StClair came face to face and belt to belt. Anything (x)WF involving Britain's talent pool pre 2000 I'd lay odds was his work. I've said it before but I really can't see how anyone who has seen Big Daddy at his worst can think Flesh Gordon was the drizzling excrements. He seems to be a target not only for Marc Mercier and the FFCP but also most of France's Americanisation/Smark crowd.