David Mantell

"Skill and speed is what they (the public) really like" - Kent Walton (during Saint vs Faulkner 1981 IIRC)

If you grow up with a style like this, then you develop enough of an appreciation of the tehcnical skill involved not to need any storytelling, you can just watch it as a sporting contest. The same probably held true for the pro wrestling of the early C20th. THIS doesn't have any storytelling in it either, but does it really matter? Storytelling wasn't completely uknown in Britain however - Jackie Pallo talks about it in his book in 1983 but it mainly relates to blue-eye (babyface) vs heel matches which were not the overwhelming majority in Britain that they were in other territories. Well you have the clever escapes from the submissions instead of the 2 counts. Not sure what you find "uniformly horrible" about the finishes - I like all the folding presses. One detail I pick up on is that in order to escape the folding presses - and thus create near falls! - is for the wrestler being pinned to start moving to get out BEFORE the folding press is completely in position. The British style - especially the clean matches - was a play-by-play man's dream as it gave a LOT of scope not just for calling holds/reversals/escapes but also analysing them and this is something Kent Walton not only threw himself into with gusto but also encouraged his viewers to do. I compare him to the DJ John Peel as both of them were public service broadcasters who set out to teach their audiences to appreciate a particular artform - be it the technical wrestling match or Rock music (and other pop music forms).

Ah, that would make sense. It seems a bit odd releasing commercial videotapes of wrestling as early as 1980 but then the Pallos put out their videotape in 1981 (albeit probably also as a demo tape for ITV to see what they could do. )

This might explain why it became "Catch" to get round the tax. Presumably prior to this point, the Lutte in question was Greco Roman (Professional GR was a BIG deal in France in the 1800 and the GR-based pro wrestling in the Soviet Union's circuses was built on this model - in both cases with circus strongmen doubling as wrestlers) so by moving to Catch (as Catch Can, following the example of the launch of All In Wrestling in Britain in 1930) promoters were able to claim that this was a different sport and therefore exempt from the tax.

What we really need is someone who is - y'know - actually FRENCH and who grew up with this territory and whose foundation ideas about what pro wrestling should be came from this (like mine did from old British Wrestling). They could give us chapter and verse about it because the final disappearance of local wrestling from French television would have been a big and traumatic moment in their lives. We know that there was at least *some* more transmitted than the INA holds- obvious example the ending of Mambo Le Primativ vs Los Halcones De Oro handicap tag from 1983. It also appears that wrestling gets farmed off from Antenne 2 to the FR3 network of local stations (similar to ITV but state run and with much less syndication of stuff) in 1985, in which case any 1985-1987 bout may only have received screening in their local areas and then - maybe - got wider airing at a later date. In which case 1985-1987 may have been the French equivalent of the Relwyskow TV tapings for Grampian/STV in 1990 and 1993 and the real equivalent of the end of ITV wrestling was the 1985 A2 > FR3 move. It's interesting to ruminate on where INA seem to be getting a lot of their footage from. Some of the earlier prints from the 1950s start with a caption in Arabic which suggests that the kinescope negatives were produced for overseas distribution, particularly to stations in Algeria and other former French colonies (just as ITV was selling kinescope prints to about 30-odd overseas stations according to a piece of paper Pat Roach said he had been shown in Simon Garfield's book- I suspect the b/w 1972 Vic Faulkner vs Mick McMichael bout was one of these) and were running off surplus positive prints to send to the INA. The later colour editions appear to have simply been recorded off air with a VCR (with the speaking clock added instead of an onscreen time code). In between this we have the sharper cleaner late 60s/early 70s stuff, most of which INA possibly kinescoped themselves (using a b/w kinescope - some mid 70s bouts like Petit Prince vs Albert Sanniez from 1977 look a lot like colour kinescopes.) Probably by the late 60s ORTF were pre-taping some matches (as ITV did) and then re-using the tapes, with the Jan '69 Delaporte & Bollet vs Montreal and Warnia de la Z being a lucky survivor that slipped through the net and then got handed over to INA years later.

> I wish we had more footage from Spain and Greece. We've got video of a rough and ready looking couple of Greek shows from September 1987 filmed in what look like a converted underground carpark with a spectacularly shabby ring. It's only where in one match where the camera turns round to reveal a rostrum of about 300 fans that you realise it's actually a "theatre" and not just a garage gym.

> a Barbie falling headbutt gets the win for a big pop. Heel turn in progress This is the spot where it goes slightly wrong - the pacing of Barb's finish is far too babyface and upbeat in tone for what was intended. Headbutt 1-2-3 Aaand BOOM into the perky POP babyface music. Up til then it was proceeding quite nicely- Ax and Smash got their babyface pop for beating up and walking out on Fuji, the POP suddently and spookily stop wrestling the Conquistadors, turn away and drop down to ringside to pick Fuji up and dust him down as the crowd HOOTS its displeasure at the one time two-man Next Hulk Hogan's odd behaviour towards the infamous heel. But with the big upbeat face-like finish the crowd just reacts like Pavlov's dog and cheers the Powers win- and then go silent during Demolition's revenge beat-down and let out a great GRUNT of disgusted heat once it's clear that (to quote Jesse) "something stunk here tonight". Ax and Smash try to retrieve the situation, raising their hands and going down ringside to give fives to the front row. Still it was all sorted over the next few house shows when the Powers brutally beat down on Paul Roma etc for trying to shut Fuji's taunting mouth with a dropkick. The WWF didn't even need to reinforce it by having Ax and Smash come down to rescue Roma each night

Pity - if someone had all the dates, they could get together with JNLister and do a French equivalent of itvwrestling.co.uk . That would be cool.

I definitely think INA should check its stock of Channel 2/Antenne 2 b/w kinescopes for chroma dots for possible colour recovery. If wrestling was already on 2er Chaine then any of the bouts from Oct '1967 to 1974 could be restored to colour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_dots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery#From_chroma_crawl

Was the cancellation not big news in France? Our one in the UK made headlines in all the newspapers and TV news - heck even Pro Wrestling Illustrated ran a piece about it in the Media Report section and Wrestling Enquirer in the June '88 edition (cover story "Win a phone call from Sting").

Joint in the late 80s is a schism between the Daddy tags on the one hand and very serious technical wrestling on the undercard - Premier Promotions in the 21st Century is basically like a 1980s Joint show minus the Daddy tag main event. Before it got on TV, All Star (like Reslo and French wrestling) was somewhat pushing the boat out in terms of entertainment and American influences - in restrospect the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA)'s restrictions were a good restraint, cutting out a lot of the wilder out-of-the-ring/weapons/brawling of the Screensport shows, while retaining Brian Dixon's good eye for creating storylines and angles that he would continue to exploit several years after the end of ITV coverage.

The rounds remove the need for rest holds during the match. This doesn't mean that you do away with headlocks etc but that they instead become links in the chain. Without rounds, old school British wrestlers have to resort to other things to create gaps, such as leading the family audiences in clapping etc. Originally though, it came from the periods in Olympic Freestyle wrestling which in turn got the tradition from old Greco Roman pro wrestling in the 1800s. The tiny rings would be actually more realistsic for bouncing off the ropes, except that running the ropes is used a lot more sparingly in the British style. Reslo had a slightly larger ring (which Orig Williams loaned to WCW for the December 1991 Roar Power tour) and so did the Royal Albert Hall shows. Come to that, so did the EWF shows in France for Eurosport New Catch (and obviously the CWA rings).

1. What exactly was the purpose of professionally filming these matches, given that they didn't have a TV show? 2 This was something Germany had in common with the USA which again links back to what I said about it being the most American-friendly Euro territory. In the UK, George Kidd is generally credited with overturning the whole "bees do the work/drones get the honey/lightweights have the skill/heavyweights get the money" (actual 40s/50s UK backtage proverb) attitude and managing to suceed as a main event act, and then passing that tradition on to Johnny Saint. Still, when Saint gets used as something better than a squash cushion for people like Colonel De Beers, the German audiences respond positively to him as they also do to the Birmingham Steve Logan. (Why and how America became so heavyweight-centric is a good question - we hear how Frank Gotch and Strangler Lewis were mainstream sports stars in their day, but were George Bothner, Benny Sherman and Ad Santel given that treatment?) 5 Yes, I like rounds too, the gaps between give natural rest periods for the wrestlers to focus their energies on the action during the round (as well as giving a TV commetator like Kent Walton some space to talk about background colour details such as a wretler's track record or outside the ring life. In 2023 Premier Promotions still use rounds for everything but All Star and Rumble use them mainly for certain formal occasions (in Rumble's case for Nino Bryant's British Lightweight title defences which are held under full blown Mountevans rules.) New SChool/Americanised promotions do it occasionally as a gimmick match and when they do, they usually call it "World Of Sport Rules" or somesuch. 6) This reminds me-what is the current status of German/Austrian Old School Wrestling? I know EWP replaced CWA but are they still going? If not, - who if anybody - has taken over the Traditional German/Austrian scene?

OK let's clear this one up as it's an old chestnut brought out by amateur wrestlers who hate the professional game. This falls into two categories: 1) The basic roll as counter to arm lever. The most characteristic British countermove used by everyone from the early days to the kids nowadays. Also used by everyone trained/mentored (in reality or kayfabe) by a British wrestler, such as Owen Hart or Nick Dinsmore as Eugene under Regal's instruction. Some wrestlers had alternatives - Jim Breaks would swivel round on his posterior, Steve Grey would do the same with an oustreched leg to pull apart the wrist lever leaving the attaker's wrist free to be wristlocked back in return, Dynamite Kid and Danny Collins popularised the cartwheel, virtually all French wrestlers use the flying headscissofs. 2) The more advanced Irish Whip (also the name used for in American Wrestling for the one armed slingshot into the ropes) in which while twisting the arm lever to force the kind of roll described above, you suddenly wrench the arm upwards, forcing your opponent to jump to avoid wrenching their arm and do the roll as a somersault from which they generally land badly on their backs (although some agile souls like Pete Roberts and even Johnny Saint can manage to make a feet first landing from this.) Even some Americans do this spot - case in point Barry Darsow as Demolition Smash in some of the Demos' matches with the British Bulldogs in '88 - don't quote me but I think he does it in their Milwaukee WrestleFest 88 match. The trouble with German wrestling is the mixture of formats it is preserved in. There was never actually a national West German or Austrian TV wrestling show (unlike the UK or France) but from 1979 up to 1999 the CWA religiously filmed itself in a variety of formats ranging from single handheld camcorder to professional multicamera OB setups. To further confound the issue, many of the latter are in b/w - whether this is because they were actually shot in mono as a leftover from the days of b/w TV or because the colour has been lost through tape copying or colour signal deterioration is a mystery. Germans went in for rounds the same as the UK (and France early on) and added their own twist of playing the latest cheesy pop hits between rounds. You can really date a German match from this aspect - it it's playing Take On Me by A-ha, Wild Boys by Duran Duran, Blame It On The Boogie by the Jacksons or whatever else is the current fave for mobile discos at weddings, then that really sets a match in its historical context. Germany seems to have been the most American-friendly Euro territory so with a big influx of Americans, that would take its toll on the technical quality of the German scene. On the other hand I have seen some quite good scientific wrestling from Germany that was practically British wrestling in another location. Dave Morgan vs Steve Logan (mk2 the Birmingham clean one who now runs K Star gyms) circa 1984 or Jason Cross vs Micahel Kovacs for the IWW Junior Heavyweight title in January 1999. I would also add Johnny Saint vs a heel Terry Rudge from the mid 1980s. German crowds marked for Saint's escapes just like Brits would for Saint against Finlay (with Paula) and Soldier Boy Steve Prince, just as they marked for the sportsmanship in Morgan vs Logan. So clearly you don't have to be British to get these things.

Got into old school French wrestling quite heavily a few years ago as a close relative of the old school British wrestling I grew up with. and have taken a much deeper dive since finding Matt D's channel. A few general questions I'd like to clear up first: What year did French Wrestling actully get cancelled from French TV and who was the Greg Dyke/Jamie Kellner of France? Also what was the story behind the move from A2 to FR3 in 1985 (as appears to have happened judging from Matt D's uploads) What year did wrestling move to 2er Chaine/Antenne2? I'm particularly interested because of the Jan '69 Delaporte & Bollet vs Montreal & Warnia de Z match which is on colour videotape. If the move was when 2er Chaine started in '64 (a few days before BBC2 in the UK) then it is reasonabe to suppose that all the bouts from October 1967 (when 2er went colour) up to 1974 in b/w on Matt D's channel were originally in colour - and more excitingly could be restored to colour using chroma dot recovery. (come to that, all the old film prints could be VidFIREd to get a VT picture look.) Can someone explain to me - clearly and from a neutral perspective - what the current venemous feud between FFCP/Marc Mercier and Wrestling Stars/FleshGodon/Jacky Richard is actually all about? Promotional rivalries are one thing but neither Max Crabtree and Brian Dixon nor Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff ever took things this far - refusing to speak to journalists who talk to the other side and each acusing the other of being conmen and crooks.

I intend to have a long gradual go through this thread replying to various stuff. A bit of background, I grew up with British wrestling as my native territory and a lot of my attitude to it remains uncontaminated by American style smart philosophy. As a general point, Old school British wrestling (which I consider to be still alive - more anon), especially the clean matches, should be regarded as a different rather than defective form of match which is best enjoyed the way Kent Walton encouraged his viewers to appreciate it, by focussing on the ideally continuous flow of skill in escaping/reversing/countering rather than looking for a story and perhaps not finding one. This is how and why as I get older I find these matches the most enjoyable to watch, the flow of moves appealing to the intellect so that you actually WATCH rather than FEEL the action. Sneer if you will, but I intend to give the old school British purist's perspective on these wrestlers and matches. ( Incidentally, isn't it rather strange in American wrestling how when someone gets an arm lever on their opponent the opponent does absolutely nothing to reverse or escape the arm lever (such as roll on the mat to untwist the arm) but just stands there selling it? Also how the only escape from a side headlock down on the mat in American wrestling is to power ones way upward out of it rather than try and use e.g. a handstand to lever ones head out of the hold? )

This was part of a bunch of finishes where Fuji did not get to interfere, helping to set up the Survivor Series double turn by showing Ax and Smash doing their own thing (presumably what Fuji considered disobedient/insubordinant) Earlier that month of 8th at Bercy Stadium, Paris, at the same show as Rockin Robin's title win over Sherri, Fuji was not present at ringside (was actually not on the tour!) for the Demos beating the British Bulldogs without his help - Canal+/RTL's footage would be screened on the 8th November Prime Time Wrestling with Gorilla and Bobby noting Fuji's absence and wondering where he was (they pretending to be themselves in France on the tour.) In Rome, Italy on 16th, still with no Fuji, Demolition again beat the Bulldogs cleanly (although they had lost a non title match a few nights earlier in Milan.)-camera copies of both of these are on YT. After this Rockers bout on 24th, Demolition go back to being pure cheaters using Jimmy Hart's megaphone and interference from the Rougeaus to beat the Hart Foundation in a Summerslam '88 rematch, but starting the night afterwards on the 26th is the first of a couple of experimental goes with Demolition as babyfaces for the night. With no Fuji present (although erroneously announced as in attendence by ring announcer Mike McGuirk) they cleanly defend against the Bolsheviks that night in Salisbury, Maryland with the crowd enthusiastically behind them - the highlight being the former Kruscher Kruschev abusing the Bolsheviks as being "You Stinkin' Commies" (oh the irony). The footage eventually got televised in May '89 with commentary to imply that this was months after Fuji was gone and was included on a Demolition VHS compilation On 6th, two days before the Paris match was televised, the Demos are again babyfaces for the night, up against their eventual conquerors the Brain Busters at the Ottawa Civic centre, going to a DDQ. Earlier that day, Fuji was reportedly "barred" (kayfabe) from the Maple Leaf Gardens so the Demos beat the Bulldogs when Smash pinned Dynamite after Ax hit a double axe handle from the middle turnbuckle. In the meantime it's business as usual with several more Bulldogs and Rockers matches in late October/early November, presumably with Fuji present and in on the finish. However November 15th a live Brother Love show was held where Love told Ax and Smash that they needed Fuji's help to win, so they ordered Fuji back to the dressing room and beat jobbers Nick Ferrari and Art Penna - although the real intention was to have some Fuji-less footage ready for the December 17th edition of Superstars, Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Dave Rosenbaum picked up on this as the start of Demolition/Fuji dissention, claiming that Fuji was "mad at Demolition for this snub" and "ripe for an offer." (from the Powers, whom Ronsebaum seemed to imply had put BL up to starting trouble between Fuji and the Demos.) After this on the night of the Suvivor Series and mere minutes before the Demos turn babyface, Smash cleanly pins Dynamite Kid to eliminate the Bulldogs in their final WWF match. A few minutes later, Warlord has pranged his shoulder on the corner post and the Demos have the clear advantage. Whereupon Fuji gets up on the ring apron wavng his cane, gets ordered down by the ref, climbs up again - and the rest is history!