Loss

From the F4W board, Dave talking about Starrcade '88, Jim Herd and Dusty Rhodes. Some is old, some is new:

"I'm gonna scrutinize you to the fullest! Pasteurize you, homogenize you and synchronize you back into morality!"

Sadly, the 1994 Bob Backlund run, while not hated, is not remembered as being as genius a concept as it was. Attacking Arnold Skaaland after all those years was terrific. And the finish to the Survivor Series '94 match is absolutely brilliant, with Backlund's post-match celebration without music and huge boos also being amazing. It is probably one of my favorite moments ever in the WWF. So that said, anything we could get out of another big Bob Backlund run already happened in the last big Bob Backlund run.

Sure, feel free to start a thread.

Yes. But which ones are the best?

My favorite shoots are more the ones where they talk about wrestling philosophy than the ones where they share stories. I love Cornette's Secrets of the Ring for that reason. What are some other good ones to pick up where the wrestler focuses more on booking styles and in-ring work than how many rats he banged or how much he hated a certain promoter?

I do plan on eventually editing in thoughts. It will just take a while. I need a little bit of a watching/writing break so I don't burn out.

Thanks. To me, that's the whole point of all this. If someone raises a valid point against something I've said, I'm willing to revisit.

Lovable thorn in my side you are.

Shoot interviews would be so much better if they asked follow up questions. Instead of having a list of questions to cover (which is the normal routine), I wish they just had a list of topics and were conducted by people who just wanted to have a conversation. That's what makes the Torch Talks so good -- Wade Keller is a great interviewer. Most shoots are more Q & A than actual engaged interview.

Not really at all.

#20 - Volk Han vs Dick Vrij (RINGS 08/21/92) #19 - Vader vs Sting (WCW Great American Bash 07/12/92) #18 - Jushin Liger vs Norio Honaga (NJPW 02/08/92) #17 - Angel Azteca, Solar I & Super Astro vs Blue Panther, La Parka & Rambo (AAA 08/21/92) #16 - Akira Hokuto vs Kyoko Inoue (AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92) #15 - Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000 & Sangre Chicana vs Konnan, Perro Aguayo & Rayo de Jalisco Jr (CMLL 03/01/92) #14 - Atlantis vs Emilio Charles Jr (CMLL 08/11/92) #13 - Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Masa Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 07/05/92) #12 - Blue Panther vs Super Astro (AAA 10/09/92) #11 - Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat (WCW Beach Blast 06/20/92) #10 - Vader vs Sting (WCW Starrcade 12/28/92) #9 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 10/21/92) #8 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba (AJPW 11/27/92) #7 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 05/22/92) #6 - Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, Dustin Rhodes & Nikita Koloff vs Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton & Larry Zbyszko (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92) #5 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue (AJW 12/13/92) #4 - Silver King, El Texano & Gran Hamada vs Negro Casas, Dr Wagner Jr & Rambo (UWA 02/29/92) #3 - Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW Best of the Super Juniors Final 04/30/92) #2 - El Dandy vs Negro Casas (CMLL 07/03/92) #1 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai (AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92)

#40 - Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF Summerslam 08/29/92) #39 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Bart Vale (PWFG 06/25/92) #38 - Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Steve Austin & Larry Zbyszko (WCW SuperBrawl II 02/29/92) #37 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/30/92) #36 - Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW 04/25/92) #35 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 12/14/92) #34 - Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka vs Yumiko Hotta & Takako Inoue (JWP 12/01/92) #33 - Ric Flair vs Genichiro Tenryu (SWS 09/15/92) #32 - Blue Panther vs Love Machine (CMLL 04/03/92) #31 - El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr (UWA 05/14/92) #30 - Bull Nakano vs Aja Kong (AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92) #29 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/05/92) #28 - Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 08/15/92) #27 - Bull Nakano, Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Toshiyo Yamada, Yumiko Hotta & Mariko Yoshida (AJW 09/15/92) #26 - Jushin Liger vs Pegasus Kid (NJPW 02/10/92) #25 - Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (AJPW 05/25/92) #24 - Octagoncito, Misteriocito & Mascarita Sagrada vs Espectrito, Piratita Morgan & Pequene Pierroth (CMLL 04/17/92) #23 - Volk Han vs Andrei Kopylov (RINGS 07/16/92) #22 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (WCW Clash of the Champions XIX 06/16/92) #21 - Rick Rude vs Masa Chono (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/12/92)

#60 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Aja Kong & Bison Kimura (AJW 03/20/92) #59 - Arn Anderson vs Dustin Rhodes (WCW Saturday Night 01/04/92) #58 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Akira Hokuto & Kyoko Inoue (AJW 06/27/92) #57 - Jushin Liger & Kensuke Sasaki vs Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas (WCW Philadelphia 12/29/92) #56 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Tayayuki Iizuka (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92) #55 - Hiroshi Hase vs Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 06/26/92) #54 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Debbie Malenko & Sakie Hasegawa (AJW 11/02/92) #53 - Sting, Dustin Rhodes, Barry Windham & Ricky Steamboat vs Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, Larry Zbyszko & Bobby Eaton (WCW Saturday Night 02/22/92) #52 - Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat vs Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (AJPW 02/22/92) #51 - Vader & Bam Bam Bigelow vs Keiji Muto & Hiroshi Hase (NJPW 05/01/92) #50 - Hiromitsu Kanehara vs Masakazu Maeda (UWFI 02/29/92) #49 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Yusuke Fuke (PWFG 02/24/92) #48 - Jeff Jarrett & Jerry Lawler vs The Moondogs (USWA Kennett, MO 01/17/92) #47 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Masa Fuchi & Akira Taue (AJPW 01/24/92) #46 - Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 01/21/92) #45 - Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (AJPW 10/07/92) #44 - El Canek vs Dos Caras (UWA 02/02/92) #43 - Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (WCW Saturday Night 10/03/92) #42 - Silver King, El Texano & Gran Hamada vs Negro Casas, Dr Wagner Jr & Mike Lozansky (UWA 02/16/92) #41 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 08/20/92)

#80 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Keiji Muto & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 08/12/92) #79 - Randy Savage vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Munich 04/14/92) #78 - Jumbo Tsuruta vs Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW 04/02/92) #77 - Genichiro Tenryu, Takashi Ishikawa & Koki Kitahara vs Shiro Koshinaka, Kengo Kimura & Masayo Aoyagi (NJPW 11/23/92) #76 - Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW 04/16/92) #75 - Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat (WCW SuperBrawl II 02/29/92) #74 - Naoki Sano vs Jerry Flynn (PWFG 01/15/92) #73 - Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 04/19/92) #72 - Ric Flair vs Genichiro Tenryu (SWS 04/18/92) #71 - Atlantis vs La Fiera (CMLL 04/03/92) #70 - Jumbo Tsuruta vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 02/27/92) #69 - Lightning Kid, Jerry Lynn & Dr Wagner Jr vs Dos Caras, Silver King & El Texano (Hamada's UWF 01/19/92) #68 - Jeff Jarrett & Jerry Lawler vs The Moondogs (USWA Mid South Coliseum 01/20/92) #67 - Mayumi Ozaki & Cutie Suzuki vs Dynamite Kansai & Hikari Fukuoka (JWP 10/07/92) #66 - Kiyoshi Tamura vs Kazuo Yamazaki (UWFI 10/23/92) #65 - Jushin Liger vs Brian Pillman (WCW SuperBrawl II 02/29/92) #64 - Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (AJPW 01/26/92) #63 - Yuki Ishikawa vs Kazuo Takahashi (PWFG 07/27/92) #62 - Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Bull Nakano & Akira Hokuto (AJW 11/02/92) #61 - Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 06/05/92)

#100 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Stan Hansen (AJPW 03/04/92) So close, yet so far away. That's Misawa on March 4. By this point, he's clearly being even more protected than he had been -- Hansen and Jumbo were the only guys with a shot at beating him, and even Jumbo wasn't a guarantee. But at least at this point, he still couldn't beat Hansen. Misawa pushes him much farther than either Kawada or Kobashi did in their challenges, so we do walk away with the thought that there are only so many times Hansen is going to be able to hold off Misawa before he finally comes through. Misawa ate the pin, but make no mistake about it: Hansen put Misawa over. #99 - Jushin Liger & Brian Pillman vs Ricky Steamboat & Nikita Koloff (WCW Great American Bash 07/12/92) Ah yes, the famed re-education show under Bill Watts. Mat wrestling isn't over like it was in years past, so let's build an entire show around mat wrestling to try to change that! That stubborn commitment to a vision was both one of the best and worst things about Watts. But while the Bash is largely remembered as a bland show, it did feature at least three good-great matches, and this is one of the best matches of the night. You may not be quite sure what to expect when Liger and Nikita Koloff interact in the ring, but surprisingly, they mesh really well. There are flaws that keep this from hitting the next level, but some of those flaws are endearing on their own. The moment when Steamboat finally gets the hot tag and the place erupts, followed by Liger immediately cutting him off with the pin, is some pretty fucked up in-ring timing for Southern tag team wrestling, and it probably caused Ole Anderson to roll his eyes and jump into a boring monologue in the back. But the moment still had a charm about it and was athletically impressive. What makes this match stand out as good is the failures more than the successes. And that sounds like an odd thing to say as a positive, but as we often hear about wrestling, it's sometimes more important to be different than good. For U.S. tag team wrestling -- a style that doesn't lend itself well to thinking outside the box, and for good reason -- this, a babyface match involving wrestlers of highly disparate skill levels and backgrounds, is about as good as different can really be. #98 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 10/17/92) It's here that we bid farewell to Jumbo Tsuruta, a man many believe to be the greatest wrestler who ever lived, competing in the last notable match of his storied career. The match has the usual world class heavyweight action, but the understated, unspoken finality of a great career takes center stage. It's Taue who spends most of the match in the ring, who acts as the workhorse and who gets the win over Kikuchi. We witness the end of a great era, just four days before Misawa and Kawada start an even better one. In a strange way, the ceding of the spotlight is the highlight on its own, as when Jumbo doesn't do much, it's hard not to notice. #97 - Riki Choshu & Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 10/21/92) Despite having a few really awesome matches, 1992 New Japan was largely the calm before 1993's storm. Hase and Sasaki, a terrific tag team, get in what is likely their last chronological appearance as a team, against two guys gearing up for a blockbuster year. While it's true that there isn't much here that we don't see done better later, Hase and Hashimoto locking up is always fun. And Sasaki may not be a world class worker, but he works hard and seems motivated to prove his worth. That he stands out in a match with the other three -- two of whom that have a natural charisma that he doesn't, and one that is a larger-than-life personality -- is a credit to him. #96 - Bart Vale vs Kazuo Takahashi (PWFG 09/02/92) One of the most fun aspects of reliving 1992 is remembering what has largely been forgotten. Such is the legacy of Bart Vale and Kazuo Takahashi. Vale in particular has gotten some play over the last couple of years among PWFG fans, and in a match like this, it's easy to see what he does well. But Takahashi is a guy who seems to have been forgotten who had potential. The matwork in these things is always good and this is no exception. It takes more than a good matwork for me to really get into a match in this style -- I need a little drama. Takahashi's confidence is what makes this memorable, and it's a shame he didn't go on to be a star. #95 - Wild Pegasus vs 2 Cold Scorpio (NJPW 04/16/92) These two have a match against each other that's more famous than this one, and that's likely a better match than this one is by comparison. But don't let that fool you -- there are definite things this match has going for it that the SuperBrawl III match does not. There's no perfectly timed complex finishing sequence here, but there is plenty of dabbling in everything from lucha libre, European matwork to the house style of the New Japan juniors. The SuperBrawl III match is rightfully remembered as a great one, but putting the first half of this match and the last half of that one together would have produced one for the ages. #94 - Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Steve Williams & Steve Austin (WCW Halloween Havoc 10/25/92) There was no reason to think Halloween Havoc wouldn't be a strong show. Rude and Chono had a great match in Japan two months before this, so matching them up again in Philly seemed like a good approach. Pillman/Steamboat ... that sounds pretty good. Sting/Jake should be a hot main event. And the match where Barry and Dustin won the tag titles from Williams and Gordy on TBS was excellent. So giving them 30 minutes to face each other again at Havoc, having Doc and Gordy put them over on a bigger show, seemed like a good approach too. Well, we know where roads paved in good intentions lead us, and we ended up not getting the MVC vs Windham/Rhodes rematch we thought we would. Instead, we got a very game Steve Austin, who in '92 was starting to find his way, but he was no Terry Gordy. So this isn't at the level of an MVC vs Windham/Rhodes match. But as a heavyweight spotfest, it's pretty terrific. There's lots of explosiveness and big moves, I guess because when all else fails just beat the hell out of each other and throw bombs. That's definitely what they did here. #93 - Yoshihiro Takayama vs Hiromitsu Kanehara (UWFI 12/20/92) You go into this match thinking there's no way in the world Takayama is losing. He wrestles with such confidence that there's no way he can't win, it seems, if only because he refuses to give Kanehara an inch. Kanehara has the more versatile game of the two, but Takayama is far more determined, kneeing the shit out of his smaller opponent to equalize any advantages he may have. But the whole time, while it seemed like Takayama was controlling Kanehara, it was Kanehara that was quietly steering the ship. He let Takayama tire himself out and managed to secure the win at the end. It's a really satisfying, basic wrestling story. #92 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW 09/09/92) Misawa has finally staked his claim as the Triple Crown champion in All Japan, and this match was key in building up Kawada as his first challenger. Kawada and Taue had a rivalry for years at this point, and being both friends and foes worked for them at different times. Here, they're in full on rivalry mode, and they come after each other with such hate that it's hard not to get sucked into the match. If you watch these matches retroactively, then you know that Kawada challenges in October, so it's unlikely that he's losing this match. However, Kawada ate enough of Taue's best offense that I found myself second-guessing the outcome a few times. It takes multiple stretch plum attempts to finally put Taue away, but he ultimately does. The end result is a good one -- a challenger with some momentum, beating Taue in a way where it seemed like he had accomplished something really important. #91 - Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Rick Rude & Steve Austin (WCW Great American Bash 07/12/92) #90 - Mitsuya Nagai vs Sergei Sousserov (RINGS 12/19/92) #89 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (AJPW 11/30/92) #88 - Bestia Salvaje vs Huracan Sevilla (CMLL 02/14/92) #87 - Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (WWF Worcester, MA 12/27/92) #86 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 03/20/92) #85 - Barry Windham & Brian Pillman vs Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas (WCW Starrcade 12/28/92) #84 - Kiyoshi Tamura & Kazuo Yamazaki vs Gary Albright & Mark Silver (UWFI 07/12/92) #83 - Jushin Liger & Koji Kanemoto vs Ultimo Dragon & Masao Orihara (NJPW 12/11/92) #82 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Naoki Sano (UWFI 12/20/92) #81 - Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 06/21/92)

Revised May: Revised July:

The only things I take back are: * This being better than SuperBrawl II * The overall rating I gave it (****1/4) I do still think this was an excellent match. The storyline isn't as strong as SuperBrawl. The match isn't as fast-paced either. But there are a few areas where I do think it's better, and that's what prompted me initially to overrate it: 1 - Steve Austin had improved quite a bit in the four months between these matches. 2 - I thought the FIP work on Windham was much better here than it was on Dustin at SuperBrawl. The teases to the hot tag were really, really good. 3 - The early spots with Windham popping an overly cautious Austin were lots of fun. That said, they did spend quite a bit of time sitting in chinlocks, and there were times when it seemed like some of the back and forth flow went just a little too long. The timing wasn't as strong as it was as SuperBrawl. But I still enjoyed this quite a bit, mainly because Rude and Austin working over Windham I thought was really well done.

A second viewing and I think I'm a little more grounded in reality than I was before, but I'm still a big fan of the match. While yes, Santo and Casas are so far ahead of everyone else in the match, Santo and Casas are also the stars of the match and it's built around them. I will say Onita is effective when he's allowed to let his charisma shine through, and both Santo and Casas are so much bigger than him as personalities here that what you're left with is an Onita without star quality, which is ... yeah. Ultimately, the FMW stuff leaves a lot to be desired, but I still like this for the novelty of Santo and Casas wrestling while surrounded by FMW guys. ****1/2? Not just probably not, but definitely not. But it's something that will still likely flirt with my top 100 for the year.

Handheld from a house show.

I've started working on my top 100 for the year. There are two matches where I seemed to get some push back over how much I liked them that I want to make sure I'm not crazy and watch them again: El Hijo del Santo, Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Negro Casas, Horace Boulder & Tim Patterson (WWA 05/16/92) Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs Rick Rude & Steve Austin (WCW Great American Bash 07/12/92) After I do that, I'll start counting down.

December: #1 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue (AJW 12/13/92) ****3/4 #2 - Vader vs Sting (WCW Starrcade 12/28/92) ****1/2 #3 - Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka vs Yumiko Hotta & Takako Inoue (JWP 12/01/92) ****1/4 #4 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 12/14/92) ****1/4 #5 - Jushin Liger & Kensuke Sasaki vs Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas (WCW Philadelphia 12/29/92) **** #6 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Naoki Sano (UWFI 12/20/92) ***3/4 #7 - Jushin Liger & Koji Kanemoto vs Ultimo Dragon & Masao Orihara (NJPW 12/11/92) ***3/4 #8 - Barry Windham & Brian Pillman vs Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas (WCW Starrcade 12/28/92) ***3/4 #9 - Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (WWF Worcester, MA 12/27/92) ***3/4 #10 - Mitsuya Nagai vs Sergei Sousserov (RINGS 12/19/92) ***3/4 #11 - Yoshihiro Takayama vs Hiromitsu Kanehara (UWFI 12/20/92) ***3/4 #12 - Masa Chono vs Hiroshi Hase (NJPW 12/11/92) ***1/2 #13 - El Hijo del Santo, Eddy Guerrero & Lizmark vs Fuerza Guerrera, Marabunta & Jerry Estrada (AAA 12/27/92) ***1/2 #14 - Great Muta vs Hiroshi Hase (NJPW 12/14/92) ***1/2 #15 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue & Jun Akiyama (AJPW 12/04/92) ***1/4

A few interesting things about this match. First of all, gotta love the crowd chanting "We Want Flair" and Liger working over the leg and doing a figure four in response. That was awesome. Also, I watch this and can't help but think Sasaki could have been a tremendous U.S. heavyweight had he spent most of his career here and worked somewhere that would actually let him work. Maybe not, it's hard to say, but his strengths would have suited WCW well for a long run. This is a good comp to the Bash '92 match, and I think it's better because the match layout isn't so disjointed. Liger is over big with this crowd, and he finally pulls out the rapid fire kicks again that he did at Starrcade '91 against Mike Graham. Liger and Sasaki do a HART ATTACK, synchronized dropkicks, a double shoulderblock, a double back body drop and plenty of other great tag team spots. I was surprised at how much I liked this, as in it's probably a low end top 10 WCW match for the year.

We weren't going to include them all but wanted to represent it, so we decided to just pick the one with the best VQ, figuring they probably worked the same routine every night anyway, as most Bret house show matches did.

Joined in progress with only Muta, Doc, Windham and Dustin remaining. Windham/Rhodes just doesn't have the excitement you think it would. Windham and Muta are the final two. Muta wins to a huge pop after some pretty good action with Windham in the closing minutes.