Loss

Agreed on Christian. He's been the MVP for RAW so far this year.

That's what that Excel document is -- kind of a working wishlist. I do plan on continuing with the year-by-year threads. I'll probably pimp what I can in these threads, and then if there's something on that Excel doc that I haven't seen that I'm curious about, I'll put that in the wishlist thread, one year at a time.

I guess it goes back to what we were talking about before. Puroresu fans have done a *far* better job of keeping track of the great matches available over the years than US fans. There's not a Rasman WWF or WCW page, for example, and the ECW mutants, wherever they are, didn't go through all the Fancams and come up with the few essential matches. I'm glad that seems to be happening for ROH. I wish it had happened for the old US territories and for SMW ... hell, it's not even really happening for current WWE TV. Too bad.

Yeah, and you like Misawa/Kawada from 6/3/94 and Flair/Steamboat matches too. Go you. Joe/Punk II has been pimped by plenty of people. Were there any ROH matches you saw that you thought were great that have ignored?

I thought I'd make this a long project and do a post for every year if we can. Basically, if you saw a match in 2004 that you thought rocked and got little pimpage, talk about it here. This isn't where you mention Joe/Punk II or the WM three-way or anything like that, but rather matches that fell completely under the radar that you'd recommend checking out. Here are my choices. I wish I could provide some indy matches as well, but I haven't started on ROH just yet (will be in the next day or so), so my choices are going to be limited to WWE. 05/10/04 - Chris Jericho v Christian (Cage Match) This match had the benefit of a great storyline going into it, so the heat was off the charts for this one. Jericho was emulating Michaels circa 1995 a lot in his wrestling style at this point, and it showed here, with him shrugging his shoulders before doing the dive off the top of the cage and wrestling as sort of a cocky daredevil. Christian bladed like he fucking meant it here, and it was a sight to be seen. I like how the match builds: Jericho is crazy with the offense ----> Jericho is about to get a quick win but Tomko is going crazy swinging a chair outside the ring ----> Jericho does a great dive from the top of the cage ----> Christian starts blading before briefly taking control ----> Jericho beats up Tyson and Trish for fun, popping the crowd HUGE when he finally gets his hands on Trish. The suspense in the last couple of minutes or so is very strong, with both coming within inches of winning the match. This should have been the blowoff, because this was the point when the feud was officially out of steam, but they still sort of feuded for another six months or so, just because the writers couldn't find better stuff to do with either of them. 06/21/04 - Chris Benoit v Kane This is one of the better big man/little man matches WWE has done, with Benoit engaging in a war of attrition and absolutely refusing to back down. Matches like this, with more focus, are what would have made Benoit mean the world as champ, but HHH was jerking off higher on the card and Benoit was sort of an afterthought. I wish I could see the match again so I could be more specific here, but sadly, I don't remember a lot of the details. 08/09/04 - Chris Jericho v Edge Rock on! These two have had some stinkers since this one, and they had some stinkers before this one, but for one night, everything seemed to work. Both wrestle as the subtle heels, which fit the storyline since they were trying to build sort of a "which one will turn?" mystique around the match with Batista at Summerslam. Again, I wish I could be more specific, but I do remember them doing a terrific job of creating suspense and drama, with the crowd buying every single nearfall from the 10-minute mark onward. It's another one I'd like to view again.

The first one. The second one was a nice little match, but the first one was great. Not just for the sleeperhold, but for everything in it. I wish I had that one as well. Booker/Henry was a nice feud that I wish could have lasted longer than it did.

It may become the next Booker T/Mark Henry, which was the RAW TV MOTY for 2003 that will forever be forgotten because of the participants.

XV - Overbooked crap with an HHH heel turn that didn't really do anything to catapult him. X-Pac/Shane and Austin/Rock were both called great matches at the time, and this is probably the *worst* Austin/Rock match ever and Shane would have a better overbooked melodrama with Test at Summerslam. Notice I didn't call it a match. Too many swerves in the booking building up the show, just to make Vince Russo seem clever. 2000 - In a great time period for the WWF, a bad show with no really good matches to speak of. It bothers me that there were no one-on-one matches. They ran HHH/Rock and Benoit/Jericho for the next two months on PPV, so I do understand the frame of mind behind not booking them here, but Mania should have an epic feel, and this was just all wrong because they were trying too hard to get everyone on the show. Foley didn't need to come back. Show didn't need to main event. Benoit and Jericho both jobbing once to each other while Angle lost both of his belts is the most evenly Stephenly booked match of all time, to a point where no one was elevated and it was ridiculous. The hardcore battle royal is fun, as is the spotfest with the Hardyz, E & C & Dudleyz, but nothing was here that we wouldn't see done better later. X-7 - I was there live! Woohoo! Main event is the best WM main event of all time and the rest of the card is fun-filled too, even if Austin/Rock is the only match that still looks like a great match now. Sadly, when I think of this show, I think more of how everything went to Hell after it was over than anything else. X-8 - Hogan/Rock is a nice match, HHH/Jericho is an underrated match -- the rest of the show is so forgettable because this was around the time Vince declared that he no longer wanted to waste his time coming up with storylines for midcarders. The hardcore thing was so old and driven into the ground by this point, and they ran it all. night. long. XIX - In terms of good matches, this is in the upper echelon of Wrestlemanias, but I hate this show for the long-term implications. Watching Chris Jericho and Booker T officially become irrelevant while unable to do anything but sit back and take it is a little disheartening. Seriously, they've both been unable to reclaim their glory days since then, and I trace it back to this show. Austin/Rock was a nice passing of the torch that came years too late, as Rock wasn't even around enough anymore for it to mean anything. They put heels over in the big matches all night so Goldberg would have opponents, but the heel only should have gone over in one match (HBK/Y2J), and that's the one match where the face went over. A total mess. XX - The show had tremendous hype and if it was an hour shorter, it be remembered more fondly, because it largely delivered.

If anyone here taped RAW, please PM me. I need to see Jericho/Christian/Benjamin again, because I'm convinced it's a great match that's going to go forgotten if there's no one keeping it alive by pimping it.

Why does Austin get cheered? He's an asshole with an obvious severe drinking problem who picks on those who are weaker and less loved than him. I understand the appeal of his character, but it truly is a sad reflection on society when this type of character is a babyface.

Angle was constantly talked about in Japanese press doing dream matches with their top stars a few years ago, and when he did a high-profile job on a WWE tour in 2002, the appeal was gone in an instant.

Fuck Jericho, it's all about the Benjamins! I think I have a new favorite wrestler.

Benoit and Edge have big shoes to fill for Match of the Night, but they do seem to be trying their best to do it, especially Benoit. This arm selling is the best thing I've seen out of Chris in some time -- I think they should go all Kawada with the knee injury and have Benoit wrestle with a bad arm for most of the year. The sympathy he would get would be unreal.

... just missed a great match between Chris Jericho, Christian and Shelton Benjamin that I'm tempted to call the WWE MOTY at this point. I actually think it was better than anything at WM. I wish I was taping this so I could watch it again and confirm that. Just some incredible high spots from all of them that made sense within the match, fantastic intensity and a nice match structure. Benjamin has truly had a phenomenal 24 hours. The time is now to shoot him to the moon.

Coffey, check General Chat for more info. From what I can gather, the same poster has changed his name several times on the folder and has stolen direct quotes from nearly everyone here. He even called himself Coffey once, along with calling himself Alkeiper and Loss. Again, check General Chat for more info.

I've said it before, but this would make the 8th consecutive WM where they've had that scratch logo. The Attitude era is long over, and I think it's time to move on. Also, this set looks pretty much the exact same as the set has the past few years. WM X-7 looked amazing at the time, and I guess they thought so too, to a point where they've pretty much done the exact same look every year since. Eddy v Rey - I felt like this match ended abruptly. Everything that was here was really good, although I felt like it should have been better. Rey seemed to be having worlds of trouble keeping his mask on. People have complained about the match being too short, but I really don't think that was the problem, so much as it was that the match was paced as if it was going to go 30 minutes and it didn't even go half of that time. Eddy kept Rey grounded, which was his job, and more so than Benoit, Guerrero has made a fantastic transition away from most of his high-risk moves into a more focused, grounded offense. He is more credible as a result, almost too credible (and too over) to be in this spot on the show. Eddy's powerbomb just may be one of the best wrestling spots in Wrestlemania history. Rey was his usual awesome self, but I was expecting to see him pull out all the spots and maybe unleash some stuff we don't see from him in every match, but that wasn't the case. The crowd seemed to be more genuinely into this match than any match on the show, probably because it's SoCal and this match featured possibly the two biggest draws they have in that market. This match could have happened on Smackdown, but even there, I have a feeling it might have seemed like a letdown. Nowhere near Havoc, obviously, and definitely nowhere near the far-too-underrated title defense Eddy had on Smackdown just after last year's WM. HHH/JBL altercation was good stuff, if nothing spectacular. JBL comes across as someone who could be fucking awesome on a regular basis, both in the ring and on the mic, if he was in a better environment. I'd like to see him in feuds with Benoit and Eddy getting in mic duels with guys like Flair and Rock. As it stands, he's not really the kind of guy that can carry a match or segment on his own. I think he'll probably be far more over now that he's not going to be the champ, and I think they should move him to RAW and keep him in the upper midcard. MITB Ladder Match - In terms of great spotfests of the past few years, probably closer to TLC III than TLC I or II, because Benoit can motherfucking sell like no one else when he's up to it. Kane kept up nicely with everyone else in the ring, and even did a dive from the top rope to the floor at one point in this indy-feeling match. Christian is really good at keeping everyone else in check in these sorts of matches, but no one really gave him any chances to make himself look good, which bothered me. After the ladder conchairto, I would have liked to have seen Christian turn on Edge and start beating the shit out of him, but it wasn't to be. Jericho was barely even in this match at all, which didn't really fit the build at all, since the match was his idea. Benoit was great here, considering the environment, and I love him selling his arm after the match so much where he's actually biting the ring apron and wincing in pain. His mini-battle with Kane where he just starts headbutting him repeatedly was fantastic, as was his flying headbutt from the top of the ladder. Shelton Benjamin was the star of the match. His selling wasn't as good as Benoit's, but he did everything else (kill and be killed) better than anyone else in the match. He does some incredible highspots, and he'll probably be more over than ever coming out of this match. Fuck Batista. Fuck Cena. This is the guy who should have won the belt this year. He's their future and they need to push him very hard very soon. As it stands, Edge did less than anyone in the match and still managed to secure the win, but he was the right choice to go over. *** seems right. As a collection of spots, it's ****1/2 or better, but it's just not believable for guys to be out of the action as long as they were here. The Hogan/Eugene/Hassan segment was nicely done, in terms of giving the crowd a nice dose of Hulkastalgia, but I don't like the idea of a 51-year old cartoon character dominating a guy who's supposed to be one of the next huge heels they're pushing. I do like that they kept an opening for a Hogan/Hassan match there, which if promoted properly will draw a nice short-term gate, but I would have switched the focus back to Eugene in the end by having him return to the ring and have the markout moment of his life posing alongside Hulk Hogan. It just makes sense. That said, Hogan looked in better shape than he did in 2002. Undertaker v Randy Orton was a nice little match, actually, but not anything worth going out of the way to see. 'Taker seemed really motivated to have a great match, and Orton did his best. This is a feud that would get better with time as the two gained familiarity with each other, because they're not doing anything wrong really, but it doesn't all come together as coherently and tightly as it should. Almost a total lack of energy until Bob Orton Jr. interfered, and his facial expressions and charisma trumped both of the guys in the ring. While I understand Taker going over here, I almost wish they wouldn't have done this match, because it puts Orton in a no-win situation. If he wins, he still has to take time off for surgery and no one buys his victory as credible anyway. If he loses, especially after the rough last six months or so he's had, it makes it seem like all he ever was in the first place was talk, and not even very good talk. It's sad that all of Foley's efforts were wasted on someone who just doesn't have it, no matter how hard he tries. But therein lies the dilemma with the Undertaker -- having him get wins kills everyone else and having him lose is ridiculous because no one buys it as the real deal. So what do you do? Trish v Christy was next. Trish tried very hard to pull something out here, and there were segments of the match where she was actually wrestling herself and pulling Hemme in the right direction for spots, but it didn't work out as well as it should have. Trish is still an awesome heel though, and still should be a main event character. I'd book her to come on to Batista tonight, only for him to blow her off, leading to Trish managing several heels to come after Batista over time. She's too good for this crap. Kurt Angle v Shawn Michaels - I missed the first half of this match, which probably made it better than it really was. The last half of this was just superb, with Angle going after Shawn's back like a bloodthirsty wolf and Shawn selling it like a champ. Shawn did his kip-up here, which was totally out of place considering all the focus Angle had put into decimating his back. I was watching with a casual fan, who remarked that she's sick of hearing about Shawn's bad back, because he's been back for a few years now, and he'd already be gone if it was that bad. Funny. The transitions here were stronger than they usually are in Angle matches, probably because Shawn has a much better grasp of what to do between moves than Kurt does, and it shows. I thought the finish actually weakened the supposed instant damage of the ankle lock, although I did like Shawn trying to reverse it and make the ropes and do everything else he could before tapping out. There was a lot of suspense once Angle locked on the hold, and if Shawn is on crutches tonight selling the after-effects, I won't bitch about it. The last half of this was probably **** or so, but with the first half included, I'm not sure how that will turn out. Lots of great nearfalls for some big moves on Angle's part, and Shawn's facial expressions all the way through were great. The crowd wasn't into this at all untill the finish, which sucked, because a "dream match" like this needs atmosphere as much as it does anything else. The crowd sucked all night actually. Piper's Pit segment with Austin was a total waste. It was nice seeing Piper act himself again, for the first time in God knows how long. If all of his work was this carefully scripted, he could come back in a speaking role and be great. Piper's response to the "What?" chants was terrific. Carlito coming out was a nice touch, but I don't like the idea of Austin killing both of them. It's surreal seeing Steve now in the same comic sideshow as Hogan and Piper, but if they're going to involve active talent in this, the active talent needs to come out looking good. I don't have a lot of faith in Carlito or anything, but he has a decent amount of charisma and shouldn't be selling for guys whose glory days are long over. Big Show v Akebono - I actually had no problem with this match happening, just because I thought it would be a great way to establish Show as a big deal, but this did anything but that. I know that's traditional sumo gear, but they really should have worn different attire for an audience that's not used to seeing that sort of thing. Show losing to Akebono was just ridiculous on every level imaginable, though, which is a shame, because he's become such a smart worker in the past year, and he's probably more capable now than he'll ever be of being somewhat like Andre. I do not understand the reasoning behind jobbing him at all. JBL v Cena - JBL carried the match, and as I said before, without someone outstanding across the ring, it's just flat. Match had no heat, and Cena's big win didn't come across as anything more special than Rhyno beating Val Venis on Heat. Unfortunate. I do like the subtle changes they've made in Cena's character to make him more serious, but I don't like the stupid things he does, like pump up his tennis shoes. He's not a wrestler; he's just this mass-marketing wet dream, and I fear the fans are going to turn on him in a major way if he doesn't do something to make himself more credible at some point. Yeah, he's probably making a killing off of merchandise, but he'd be making the same whether they ever put him in the title picture or not. With Eddy jobbing tonight, the only strong opponent he has lined up is Angle, and he's going to need him in the worst way. Crowd didn't react at all. Finally, HHH v Batista. Way too long with way too much sympathy put on the monster face, as I think most of us expected. HHH has this annoying habit of taking a leisurely stroll around the ring between even the smallest, most insignificant moves, and the pace of the match just gets so dragged down with it. He did do a lot of things right -- the staredown was great, the entrance was great, the blade job was great. Batista making a comeback shaking the ropes like he's the Ultimate Warrior after being dominated for 80% of the match was all wrong. The right person won though, and the match wasn't terribly offensive, just really boring with no heat unless Flair was interfering or the crowd thought the match was about to end. Overall, the show was about what I thought it would be, but I'm more interested in the upcoming draft and its implications than I was anything on this show.

Nash's audio clip summary, from what I can gather: On Benoit and Guerrero -- Said there are two qualities every headliner must have - men want to be 'em and women want to fuck 'em. Said he loved the work they both did, but it was like watching a porno with a guy with a four-inch cock. Said they couldn't really be headliners because women weren't attracted to them and men may have respected them, but not in a larger-than-life way where they wanted to be like them. Says he does regret using the term "vanilla midgets", though, and respects the hell out of them. On Chris Jericho -- Called him a great worker. Said Jericho is too vocal to the creative team, and they get pissed at him and fuck him over as revenge, which is why he never gets pushed. Said Jericho is not afraid to say, "Your writing sucks." Said that happened in WCW and that still happens in WWE. "Chris is the most over guy who never gets pushed" were Nash's exact words. Says he wanted to be Diesel with Jericho in the same way he was with Michaels, and that they could have gotten three years out of it had they done it, but that the idea was turned down.

VIII - Hard to watch these days, although the company was on a roll at the time. I remember how the "double main event" was a big deal at the time, and now every show has one. IX - Bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. The total antithesis of everything I stand for as a wrestling fan (Hogan stealing the spotlight, Bret being phased out, Hennig jobbing, Gonzales getting a huge push, the most credible announcer in wrestling put in a toga, Savage as an announcer). X - Two ****+ matches, and one match everyone has forgotten that is fun -- RANDY SAVAGE VERSUS CRUSH. ACKNOWLEDGE IT, DAMNIT! Didn't have the WM feel until Bret's post-match celebration, unfortunately. XI - Diesel/Michaels is a good match, but a walking example of how to bury a big man champ, and the rest of the card sucks. Pass. XII - The Ironman is a good match, but it's in front of the wrong crowd with an unnecessary gimmick and bad announcing and a lackluster card. Austin/Vega smokes it. Piper/Goldust is easier to watch. XIII - A better overall show than Wrestlemania III. Austin/Bret >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Savage/Steamboat and the LOD 6-man >> anything besides Savage/Steamboat on the WM3 card. Equally bad main events. XIV - Lots of good matches. Watching this, it was obvious that WCW was about to get their ass kicked, and it started happening just two weeks later.

Wrestlemania I - Historic, for obvious reasons, but that's about all it has going for it. Steamboat/Borne was all right, but that was about it. I hate how in this era of the WWF, they rang the bell before the match, after each introduction, and then again to start the match. Lay off, will ya? Wrestlemania II - Not a good show, but a very fun one, because of the three locations thing that Starrcade would rip off later in the year, and because it's such a great time capsule of the era. Hogan is freakishly huge in the main event. Also, cool to see Bret as the next-to-last guy in the NFL/WWF battle royal, although I wish we could have gotten Bret/Steamboat, which was the original plan. Wrestlemania III - Enormous. Bad. Faces going over all night is cool. Savage/Steamboat is probably my least favorite good match of all time. Wrestlemania IV - I skipped it in favor of Clash I. Yay for me. I got three great matches out of five aired matches, and in half the time to boot. Wrestlemania V - I actually think this was the best WM up until that point, although it still has some weirdness going on. Hogan/Savage is one of the better performances of both. Brother Love is funny in the Piper's Pit segment and I marked for the Martel turn. Rockers v Towers is a good big man-little man match. Wrestlemania VI - Hogan/Warrior I still like, but it's not outstanding or anything. The rest ... who cares. Wrestlemania VII - The best WM ever at the time. Has Savage/Warrior, which was an incredible match, Rockers v Haku/Barbarian, which is also fun, and a better than given credit for Hogan/Slaughter main event. Heenan and Gorilla are also on fire in the announce booth.

Mod's note -- If this topic makes no sense, it's because all the match reviews were pulled out afterward and posted in the match reviews folder that we didn't have at the time, but that we now have. Check it out, it'll make much more sense than this thread. -- Loss 05/02/05 Just received a boatload of DVDs from goodhelmet. So far, I've watched Jim Cornette - Secrets of the Ring and one other match I'll talk more about later. Secrets of the Ring is a fascinating viewing, hearing Cornette explain the basics of the face/heel structure, a money promo and psychology, and also explaining some of the differences between working singles and tags. I must admit that I chuckled at his line about people on the Internet sitting with a notepad and watching matches because they can't get laid, just because it's such an overdone line. I think this is the sort of thing that should be required viewing for anyone looking to get into the business or anyone who is looking to have a greater understanding of the art form of pro wrestling. The match I watched was Eddy/Rey from Halloween Havoc '97, and I need to watch it a couple more times to see how I feel about it. First impression is to say I prefer Ultimo/Rey at WW3 '96, but I have seen that match many more times than this one. Whenever I've given it another viewing or two, I'll post my full thoughts on it.

Matches aren't really worked with the intention of standing on their own, though. They're worked with the idea of being shown to an audience that has been watching the TV and knows the score. As we've talked about before, as much as I'm grateful to it, getting comps of the best matches does cheapen them in some way, and not knowing the history, even if you love the match, isn't giving it all the credit it deserves. Having a great match means next to nothing if you don't know what the standard match quality is in that company at that period of time. I could go through every match on this list, or at least the ones I've seen, and show how it's vital to know the story, the setting, the surrounding factors, the environment ... to get everything out of it that the workers want you to get out of it. You can read up on the storylines all you want, and in some cases create your own little reality, but matches are typically wrestled first and foremost for a specific audience in a specific time frame that knows specific things because they've seen them first-hand. Problem is, going to all that trouble to create a self-made match buildup is rather pointless when bookers have already done it and the workers are telling you the story on their own. Let them. So, I guess I have to disagree with your basic point and say that wrestling matches, whether they can stand on their own or not, should never be expected to do so. If they can, it's happenstance and nothing more.

It may be an April fools joke, but if it is, it's a good one, since this would be a smart move for the company right about now.

Surreal. Vince basically admitted that his injuries have forced him to reevaluate his views of wrestling. Good business doing their own preemptive testing before the government starts hounding them again. I'm curious how this will play out. If Vince really says what he means, this has the potential to change the company landscape.

The live event is the backbone of pro wrestling, and I'd always encourage people to check out as many as they can. I wish indies ran here, but they don't; I caught every house show to come through this area for nearly ten years, but now that we're in a monopoly, I don't feel all that enthused about going to WWE house shows, since they're clearly a company afterthought and the wrestlers dog their performances anyway because there are no cameras. I think, now more than ever, the more talent that's being developed out there and the more people get a chance to see it, the better the business will be for it in a long haul. I've been to some shitty wrestling shows in my time, but I've never not managed to have a good time. I'd go.