Loss

Link here This is worth reading, even if I'm not quite sure how it all ties together as an article or what to say about it. I guess you could consider it a nice inside view into the psyche of a wrestler, but be forewarned that it's all over the place.

From Landy at TSM: Lots of good stuff there. Is anyone here getting the channel yet? I'm interested in these matches: * The women's match from Survivor Series '87 * The Jumping Bomb Angels matches (I think there are three) from the Women of the WWF commercial release * Taker's Revenge had Taker/Mankind and Austin/Bret, which some of you may be interested in * Spring Stampede was a loaded show, with Flair/Steamboat, Dustin/Bunkhouse Buck (in a Bunkhouse match that rocks!), a Cactus & Payne v Nasty Boys brawl and a pretty good big-man match in Vader/Boss Man * Wrestlerock '86 had a Rockers v Somers & Rose match I need to see, since I've loved every other match they've ever done * Piper's Greatest Hits didn't look to have any must-see matches on it, but it looks like an entertaining viewing * Crockett Cup '88, the commercial release anyway, has almost every match clipped. The three that aren't are Fantastics v Arn & Tully (good match, and I think even this one is slightly clipped), Sting & Luger v Arn & Tully (another good match, tourney final) and Flair v Nikita (Flair by the numbers). * I'm curious about what the Nitros and RAWs and ECW stuff is * The 12/29/91 MSG show has one of the better Hogan/Flair matches of the time period and what I remember being a really good 20-minute draw between Bret Hart and Ted DiBiase * Hogan v Savage during this time period was always fun, and if this is a never-before-televised match, I definitely want it Let's hope more cable companies start carrying this yesterday.

Thanks for posting this, GH. I can't wait to watch it. It looks like this match was overlooked by a lot of people simply because it was JBL challenging Eddy Guerrero and people didn't want to accept Bradshaw on that level, so they weren't going to give the matches a chance.

Rey is a house show draw, which even WWE acknowledges through the way they position him, he sells merchandise and he has a certain appeal no one else on the roster has that makes him special. I absolutely would give Rey a run with the title in 2005. I would avoid letting guys like JBL, Heidenreich, Big Show and Undertaker in the title picture while he has the belt though, simply because the matches would be bad, they're not going to sell properly for him and it wouldn't be believable if Rey goes over. I'd also put him over for the belt in a TV match, not a PPV match, because it would really create an atmosphere WWE sorely needs where anything can happen. I can't see him holding the belt longer than three months or so, but those three months would be great, especially if he was feuding with Guerrero, Angle, RVD and maybe a RAW import like Michaels or Jericho.

Tomko has actually gone from SUCKING REALLY BAD to just being a bad worker, thanks to being surrounded by HBK, Christian, Benoit and Jericho for the past six months.

"I'd have a sex change before I ever went back to WCW." -- Kevin Nash, 1995, one year before going back to WCW

Oh, and the point was made quite nicely at DVDVR that no one in the 80s would have dared wear designer jeans in a street fight. Edge and HBK really needed some worn Levi's instead of boot-cut Diesel jeans, or whatever they were wearing.

Of course I did. You only steal from the best. We are some backscratchin' muthafuckas up in here.

Randy Savage v Ricky Steamboat from Wrestlemania III is another match that most wrestlers refer back to as a major influence. Of those matches you listed, Hogan/Andre played a definite big role, because it's probably the most clear memory most of the current top guys have of watching wrestling as a child. It's also the most memorable moment for most fans of the era, and it's a dream match no one ever thought would happen at the time. Bret/Shawn played a major role in reshaping the company, because it gave birth to the Mr. McMahon character, which played itself out on TV for the next six years, and because it transitioned the company out of the Bret Hart era for good. From there on, it was all Austin. Austin was an emerging superstar before that, don't get me wrong, but there was no longer anyone else even close. Undertaker/Foley was a memorable match that probably inspired a lot of indy spotmonkeys and made them think WWE would hire them if they jumped off of the Empire State Building into a glass of water. There are two poisons in wrestling -- dangerous stunts and steroids -- and it's up to the performers to pick which ones they want to go toward. I think this match raised the bar too high and I can't say anything really good about a match where one guy broke his foot and the other guy got chokeslammed through a cage in an unplanned spot. It did leave the audience unable to appreciate a good WRESTLING MATCH for a long time, because they were just waiting on the big bumps and highspots. That go-go-go mentality ended up being dangerous in the long run, and this wrestling mindset coupled with Vince Russo's booking made the Attitude era one of total excess, to a point where we're still wading through the bodies today.

The Rockers - Probably the best tag team in the WWF from the time they debuted in 1988 until the moment they split up. Worked good matches with teams who had no business being in good matches. If not for the ability to move around territories, they would have been stale as hell, considering they were together for over five years. I think 90% of Shawn's best matches have happened as a tag wrestler, and most of those happened in the Rockers. Jannetty was every bit as good, and they had some swank double team moves. Their feud with Somers and Rose in the AWA is one of the best feuds of the 80s. Loved their brief heel run in 1988 in Memphis just before going to the WWF. Ted DiBiase - Kind of a poor man's Ric Flair in many ways, which is funny because he'd go on to play anything but a poor man on TV. More physically imposing and athletic than Flair actually, and was a key part in some of the biggest angles of the 1980s in many territories. As much as I loved his WWF run, specifically his house show feud with Savage in '88, I wish he would have jumped to the NWA and stole the Horsemen from Flair, turning heel, winning the title and taking over the group. Flair would be the wronged babyface going for revenge against DiBiase, Arn, Tully and Luger. Luger would eventually leave the group to make room for Windham and you can run DiBiase/Arn/Tully/Windham v Flair/Sting/Luger/Doc matches forever and ever and they'd all be awesome. Arn Anderson - One of the best interviews wrestling has ever seen. Probably even better than Flair on the mic, which is no small compliment from me. Responsible for some of my favorite wrestling quotes ever, especially "adversity introduces a man to himself" and "you send one of ours to the hospital; we send one of yours to the morgue." Was a fantastic tag team wrestler and a good singles wrestler. Was unfortunately always put in the position of having to make green guys and big slugs look formidable. Sid - Guilty pleasure for me as well. I hate his matches, and he's a worthless human being, but those psychotic, non-sensical promos he'd do had a certain perverse charm about them. Riki Choshu - In terms of influencing the pro wrestling style, I don't know that anyone else has had as huge an impact, and not just in Japan. Booked the ever-awesome G-1 climax in 1996 to near perfection and I loved his run against Jumbo & Friends in AJPW in the mid 80s. Had a certain rock star charisma about him and was a rebel through and through -- there was no one else around that was remotely like him at the time. One of the five biggest draws in Japanese wrestling history. Kevin Sullivan - Had some really awesome ideas, and has his share of both friends and enemies. I'm glad he was recently able to patch up his problems with Benoit, but I'm sad that it happened now instead of five years ago, when it could have made a difference in the wrestling war. Jushin Liger - The best junior heavyweight of all time. Hit highspots that were just as impressive as Sayama's with far more grace, was as aggressive at Dynamite Kid, and is probably in the top handful of "anchors" in wrestling history. His match with Samurai in '92 is an all-time favorite of mine. Psicosis - Really terrific, underrated worker who took some insane bumps and had some great matches with Rey and Santito. I don't know that he ever really met his full potential, although he did get really good. Should have had a long run with the cruiserweight title in WCW. Ken Shamrock - Could have been a huge player in WWE who had an aura like no other, but they made him sell too much and wrestle a pro style, so the novelty was dead. I was never really a huge fan and hated pretty much all of the angles they put him in, but that's because they weren't realistic. Manami Toyota - Athletic and high-strung, and I'll never say she's a bad worker or anything like that, but she annoys the Hell out of me with her high-pitched screaming and lack of long-term selling. I much prefer Akira Hokuto, Kyoko Inoue, Devil Masami, Aja Kong and Jaguar Yokota to her.

Marty is bringing the awesomeness in the quotage department today.

You are brilliant. Has anyone told you that in the past 15 minutes?

If you look at all the people HBK has lost to since coming back (HHH, Jericho, Benoit, Orton, Edge, Christian, Flair), in every case except HHH, he's come back and beaten them at least twice. I think with Benoit it may have just been once, but the point stands.

RAW thoughts: -- The strength of the HHH/Batista feud up until now has been its subtlety. That's gone out the window and I really think they need to lay off of this as a physical feud where they interact or come close to interacting every week and instead go the Rock/Brock route where they show training videos and have lots of staredowns and interviews. I wouldn't have them touch each other before the show, and in fact, I don't even know that Batista touching Flair is necessary. Next week is Batista v Flair. Flair always faces HHH's upcoming opponents. This feud has officially become run-of-the-mill. -- A six-way ladder match just SCREAMS "We have nothing better for you to do." The match is pointless unless something is at stake, be it money, a title shot or a roster switch. I'd wager that the others involved will be Edge, Christian, Chris Benoit, Muhammad Hassan and Shelton Benjamin, but we'll see. Regardless, they really all deserve something better than to be paired with each other. -- Trish is advertising a new Stacker2 product, which means I need to go to all my local pharmacies and BUY ALL OF IT! She's so awesome it hurts, and I appreciate her being so informative and sharing a few of her training secrets with us peons. We SO don't deserve it. -- Trish's NWO beatdown on Christy Hemme was fabulous. Christy is doing Playboy, but why is she even there? They've started just putting women on TV without even a convoluted excuse for why they're around. Yeah, Christy won the Diva Search, but does that mean she's going to get in the ring? The eye candy is worthless unless they're involved in a storyline that's going somewhere. I hope Trish murders her at Wrestlemania. Trish calling her move the Chick Kick is such a lousy name, because no woman would say, "Hey, I think I'll call my move the Chick Kick!" She deserves better. I wish SHE was sleeping with Stephanie instead of HHH. -- Hogan, Austin and Piper will all be at Wrestlemania and I really couldn't care any less. You know the Piper's Pit segment will end with Piper eating a stunner, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Hogan go into business for himself and try to hold Vince up for more money a few days before the event. -- This seemed like a good time to mention that Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley and Steve Austin will all turn 40 this year. They're officially in the Hogan/Piper/Savage/Flair ridiculousness category now. In fact, they're almost worse than some of those names, because some of those names were still useful after they turned 40, and the others just can't go home and stay there. I have no desire to see any of them again, except maybe Mick if he's doing an interview. -- I tuned out before the main event. I can't stand to even watch Shawn with his 13-year old entrance theme and 1996 offense at this point. Adjust to the times or go home, please.

I may hold off a few days doing another one of these. We don't want to run through everyone worth talking about too quickly. Today's 10: The Rockers (not as singles wrestlers, but as a tag team) Ted DiBiase Arn Anderson Sid Riki Choshu Kevin Sullivan Jushin Liger Psicosis Ken Shamrock Manami Toyota

Booker T - Underrated as a performer, but I chalk that up mainly to never being allowed much face time. Even when he was involved in a high-profile feud, he was either a comic figure (Austin), a second fiddle (Rock) or someone who couldn't back up what he said (HHH). I think more than anyone -- more than Rob Van Dam, or Chris Jericho, or Eddy Guerrero, Booker T's emotional connection gets severed with the audience constantly. He showed some great acting skills in the recent Pulp Fiction parody with Guerrero and I think he could do some of the best serious promos we've seen in a long time if they used his charisma to portray him more as a serious threat and less as a comic sidebar. I've thought ever since he was in WCW that he had the potential to be a huge draw. I wish WCW had elevated him sooner, because he never would have been typecast as a midcarder, and his 2000 run would have been super-over. Has the size, the look, the speaking ability, is good enough in the ring and had a demographic in the palm of his hand, or at least had that potential. He should really be one of the five biggest stars on the roster, but he's not. I've also always thought Booker T was a great in-ring babyface. Perhaps the mother of all overlooked great, five-minute matches took place in November of '03 the night after Survivor Series, when he carried Mark Henry to the best match of his career, and perhaps the RAW TV MOTY for the year. Bobby Heenan - Incredibly funny. I always saw him as more of a comedian who happened to be involved in wrestling than someone who could get angles over behind the mic. That said, he fit the description of what a color commentator should be quite nicely. The '92 Rumble is obviously my favorite memory of him, but I also look back fondly on his commentary at Summerslam '91. Gorilla: "Coming up next, the match made in Hell!" Heenan: "The wedding is next?" (referring to Savage and Liz tying the knot) Curt "Mr. Perfect" Hennig - Had a terrific career and was one of the best heavyweights in the US during his prime (1986-1991). My two favorite matches from him are against Bret at KOTR '93 (which is FAR better than Summerslam) and his one-hour draw with Nick Bockwinkel in the AWA in Las Vegas. Both were great matches. I wouldn't say he was inconsistent, but he has some matches that have nicely withstood the test of time and some that really haven't at all. Terry Funk - One of the greatest wrestlers of all time, most likely somewhere in the top 20 if you're looking at the total package on a global scale -- the influence he had in Japanese wrestling history can't be overstated. Hung on past the point where he could even be classified as a tough old bruiser, but his name carries with it credibility to most fans. The Flair feud in '89 was my first exposure to him, but I've grown to love older matches of his as well. Once again, the word legend certainly applies. Lex Luger - What happened? For whatever reason, Luger could never pull everything together to meet his potential. He had a tendency to look down on pro wrestling, and he always made more money than he was worth, which is why it boggles the mind that he's having serious financial problems these days and is having to practically beg for indy dates. Had the look of a superstar, and without it, didn't really have much at all. Improved to a point where he could be carried to something good-great from 1988-1990, but injuries, drugs and a lack of motivation took their toll on him after that. Kevin Sullivan managed to get him over huge again in late 1996-1997, but after he pulled a Tommy Rich and lost the belt five days after winning it, the choke artist label was stamped solidly back on his forehead, and his days of being useful were far over. The "Narcissist" gimmick in the WWF had potential, and Luger/Bret seemed like a logical choice for a money match that never really happened, and could have put Bret over big. Dusty Rhodes - One of the most charismatic performers of his day. I wouldn't call him bad in the ring, because he had the most important in-ring quality there is -- the ability to connect with a crowd. Was hit and miss as a booker overall. He always had some really awesome ideas, and he knew how to push wrestlers to accentuate their strengths, but blind favoritism ended up getting the best of him, and his tendency to book inconclusive finishes and put the heels over constantly did a lot of damage to the NWA. One of the top handful of interviews of his time, which is why he stood out so much and became a superstar after turning babyface and feuding with Pak Song in Florida in 1974. Kept himself in the limelight far longer than he ever should have. I've seen him in a **** singles match though. Backlund defended the WWF title against him in New Japan in 1980 and it was glorious! Rick Martel - Wasn't a big fan of his at the time. He's been mentioned as a great heel in this thread, but I always thought he was far better served as a face, and he definitely had better matches in that role. Flair said in his book that when Martel was on, he was every bit as good as Steamboat, which is a HUGE compliment coming from him. Had some really awesome matches with Flair, Choshu and Jumbo in the mid-80s, and had a more memorable run as "The Model" in the late 80s and early 90s. His comeback in 1998 was totally unexpected and exciting to see, and he was cast in a role that was totally right for him, but sadly, a back injury cut that short just when he was starting to gain momentum. He, to me, is an example where you can put a veteran in a feud where he's surrounded by younger guys who are motivated instead of putting him with other big names who are content to rest on their laurels, and if they have pride in their work, they'll work hard to be better for it. Martel was motivated to be good again because he was surrounded by young guys and had to keep up. It was great booking sense and was great for fans watching as well. The Great Muta/Keiji Muto - As has been said, he's probably had more success than any Japanese wrestler ever has in the United States. His run in 1989 obviously had a major impact, as he showed up in WCW in 2000 and got a HUGE pop based on name recognition, showing that he was one of that era that people truly remembered. He was influential to a lot of US workers and fans who had never seen the offense he was dishing out at the time, while his track record in Japan is far more spotty. Was one of the chosen ones who was always pushed hard, but only worked hard when he felt like it, and his booking is all over the place. I wish he could have turned babyface in 1990, because it would have been a great run with him challenging Flair for the title with Sting out. Sean Waltman (1-2-3 Kid/Syxx/X-Pac) - I was a big fan of his when he first debuted in the WWF in 1993, and the win on Razor is an all-time favorite markout moment for me. Had a great match against Bret Hart in July of '94, and was part of the really good Clique tag match that fall as well. Also had the best 3-minute match ever against Owen Hart at KOTR '94. Injuries and drugs ended up curtailing his motivation and talent, and he was soon resting on his laurels as a guy who had the reputation for being a good worker. He probably would have had both a different career and a different path in life had he not gotten in with such a rotten crowd. Ric Flair - My favorite wrestler of all time, although probably not the best of all time. I don't have quite as much respect for him as I used to, because he's such a shameless suck-up and should have quit wrestling 15 years ago, but his impact in his prime was amazing. Not so much an original as a greatest hits compilation of the wrestlers who influenced him the most, to a point where he was able to build a career out of it and make tons of money and headline countless big shows. It's very hard for me to look at him objectively, but I do try to do so.

Have at it! I'm pressed for time, so I'll have to chime in later. Booker T Bobby Heenan Curt "Mr. Perfect" Hennig Terry Funk Lex Luger Dusty Rhodes Rick Martel The Great Muta/Keiji Muto Sean Waltman (1-2-3 Kid/Syxx/X-Pac) Ric Flair

Oh, I have it. Thanks for offering though.

Backlund didn't really "throw his weight around", nor did he "cry" about losing the title. Something you'll notice with every wrestler to ever be a world champion, from Flair to Hogan to Bret to Michaels to anyone else, is that they typically don't take dropping the world title the first time very well. It had to be hard to accept that wrestling as he knew it was totally changing, and after five years of being the top dog, he was no longer even really an attraction. I think anyone would have a problem with that. I thought his heel work in the mid-90s was comically awesome. What? Rock did pay his dues. He started off in the USWA and worked his way up to the WWF, where it took him two years to win his first world title. Sure, they had him in mind as a future star from day one, but they should have that mindset with all the new talent they hire. Rock earned everything he ever got. He was a huge attraction for the company for years and was hardly an overnight sensation. He worked hard and overcame a lot of fan apathy and disgust and turned a negative into a positive, which catapulted him to stardom.

Lance Storm - Solid, but not really spectacular. I don't know that he ever really fully realized his potential as a worker or as a superstar. Never bad by any means, but wrestled light as a feather, which makes him both a professional and a puss, because his chairshots looked like shit. I've seen some matches with Jericho that I've liked (or at least I did a few years ago) and I enjoyed an 8-man tag he was part of in WAR that also featured Liger, Misterio, Juventud, Jericho and others. I think his match with Edge at Summerslam '01 was his best in WWE. Had some decent matches with Candido in ECW, but nothing too outstanding. Became a good hand on the mic in the latter stages of his career, but had a Dean Malenko-ish reputation and never got the opportunity to really talk without having a bad gimmick forced on him where he's awkward in his own skin. Those characters NEVER work, as a lesson. Would have been a big star in WCW had they still been around. Nikita Koloff - One of my favorites growing up, which I now realize is because Flair made him look so fucking great every time they were in the ring. Sexiest wrestler ever, in case you're keeping inventory on my personal tastes in men. Uh, yeah. I think they could have run with him for a while as champ, but he really lost his passion for wrestling (and life, for a while) when his wife Mandy died. Prototype for Goldberg. Had the benefit of being surrounded by fantastic workers most of his career, so he never really had any abysmal matches. Nice guy from all accounts. Scott Norton - Worthless. Next. Bam Bam Bigelow - Had all the physical tools Vader had, but didn't quite have the same killer instinct or push. His tag team with Vader in NJPW in the early 90s was short-lived, but excellent. I think he could have become a bigger star than he became pretty much every time he flirted with the upper card, to a point where it became a Luger or Jericho-ish running gag after a while. Should have been huge in the WWF in 87/88. And wasn't. Should have been huge in the NWA in '88. And wasn't. Should have been huge in the WWF after jobbing to LT in '95. And wasn't. Should have been huge in WCW in '98/99. And wasn't. One of the most politically-sabotaged wrestlers ever, and one who I don't think ever had the match he was capable of having. Part of some super-fun brawls in Memphis teaming with Lawler against Austin Idol and Tommy Rich. Worked shootfights for a short time. Had a pretty good RF shoot interview, though he was trying too hard to seem like a badass. Chris Benoit - One of the greatest workers of all time. I can't say enough for how good he was at his peak, and even now, how he shines above most of the rest of the roster. Everything a wrestler should be both between the ropes and outside of the ring, as he always strives to have the best match on every show and never has an "off night", and at the same time respects wrestling history and conducts himself like a pro. I want to see some of his matches in Mexico and Europe, because he supposedly excelled at Lucha and the British style as well, which doesn't surprise me, since he's also done well with the US heavyweight style and the NJ juniors style. I think the tag team with Malenko in '99 could have been HUGE if they hadn't broken them up for reasons I'll never understand. I think he had the potential to be even bigger in the WWF, but he jobbed to HHH in his very first match in the company, and while it didn't kill him, it did kill the mystique of the WCW World Champion Who Never Lost The Belt jumping ship and challenging the champ. I don't know that he's been quite the same since returning from injury in 2002, but he's still very good. Raven - Smart guy with a good mind for wrestling, but like many, he does have a narrow view of what wrestling should be. I wish he would have swallowed his pride and agreed to work backstage for Vince instead of going on the road as a performer, just because his contributions to wrestling probably would be so much greater. I'm a fan of his regardless, specifically for his promos, his character and his philosophy on wrestling. Ultimo Dragon - He doesn't really have an unbelievably high number of ***1/2+ matches, but his peaks are astounding, and his best matches can compare to almost anyone's best matches. I think him going into the HOF was a little bit of an overstatement, but I'm still a fan of his. Had some of the best matches in WCW history and has done some awesome work in Japan as well. Standout matches include Liger at the '95 J Cup, Otani at the '96 J Crown, Rey at World War 3 '96 and Jericho in WAR on 07/07/95, in what was spot fu galore, but well done spot fu galore. Dory Funk Jr - The wrestling equivalent to watching paint dry, but I'll be damned if that paint doesn't know how to dry the right way. Okay, that's the strangest analogy I've ever made, but the point stands. Regarded as one of the best in his era for good reason, even if I do prefer his brother to him. Ricky Steamboat - Possibly the best American babyface to ever live. Had a great career from start to finish, with Ric Flair obviously as his most famous opponent. His best matches are as good as anyone's best US matches, obviously. Never really slowed down, and had the class to quit when he wasn't going to be able to continue at his best anymore, opting not to give his fans less than he thought they deserved. I hope WWE listens to him as a road agent. Davey Boy Smith - Spent his career in the shadow of someone else most of the time, whether it was Dynamite Kid, Owen Hart or Bret Hart. I was a fan of his, although he was really way physically bigger than he ever needed to be for most of the 1990s. Enjoyed his matches with Michaels, Bret and Owen. Was part of one fo the two or three best tag teams in the world with Dynamite Kid in the 1980s, and is one of the few guys I can think of who worked AJPW, NJPW, WCW, WWE and the North American territories prior to the WWF's national expansion. Probably would have been alive to this day and a better worker had he not bulked up so much, but probably never would have gotten the push he did had he not.

First four are by special request, even if I am NOT a soft-rock DJ. Lance Storm Nikita Koloff Scott Norton Bam Bam Bigelow Chris Benoit Raven Ultimo Dragon Dory Funk Jr Ricky Steamboat Davey Boy Smith

I want to see Kill Bill with Trish as the Bride and Taijiri and Funaki as the Crazy 88.

It both sucks and rocks that I'm on dialup. It sucks because I can't download all of these matches and view them without waiting 8 million hours, and it rocks because I have somewhat of a life as a result. I'm anxious to hear what you think of Benoit/Scorpio. I'm a fan of that match.