Dylan Waco

Bryan's indie run held up shockingly well when I binged watched it in the weeks before the deadline. I expected it to feel dated and it simply didn't. If anything I may has underrated him to offset recency bias.

MAYBE Hansen? Really? Also why I think it's possible to view Funks best stuff as being something other than All Japan, I can't reall imagine anyone voting him this high without All Japan. I've never really considered him a "Japan candidate," but it would probably be at least as dishonest to label him an American one.

We are to the point now where I think any argument about someone being underrated is really pushing it. Top 10 is top 10

Bret Hart

One advantage Flair has is that the entire idea of what a great worker is is based on Flair. Matt has made this pout to me privately but he's dead right. Again, I'll talk more about Flair when he drops, but this process has absolutely confirmed to me that Flair is an all time worker. That said it has also convinced me that there is no criteria I could ever see myself subscribing to that would make him my number 1.

DEAN is probably right about Ray Gonzalez who I considered, but didn't vote for. I kind of wish I had in hindsight. A really long time as a good worker. Biggest knock on him is that I'm not sure I ever thought he was next level great, but if you pressed me right this moment I'm not sure I could leave him off if I had a re-do.

Well even the AJPW names are effectively U.S. names in the sense that the vast majority of Japanese wrestling is highly Americanized. The least Americanized styles, promotions, et. (WOS, shootsyle, lucha, at least arguably Joshi) did the worst in terms of being represented in large enough volume to register in high places on the list. I think the characterization of the list as "mainstream" is questionable for a variety of reasons, but I absolutely think it's fair to say that in order to do really well on this list you had to work within a style/promotion that was either American or an outgrowth of American cultural imperialism. To me the most interesting guys in the top ten are Bryan and Rey, because while both fit as a part of the American wrestling culture, they are different expressions of it than you find in the other guys who made the top ten. I think it's especially interesting that none of us really seem to think of Rey as a luchador anymore, and I wonder if that speaks more to actual changes he's made in his work, or the fact that where he works has subconsciously taken him from the "them" to the "our" camp. I'll have more to say on Flair when he eventually drops, but its been an interesting journey for me with him, that's led to some interesting (and sad) conclusions.

This is old news. He had an Observer Award named after him. He's in.

Majority of top 13 are guys who made bulk of their cases in Japan.

I'm still confused about what this is referencing. I actually deliberately avoided spamming my Twitter feed with calls for votes for this specific reason. The encouragement on the board was done as a response to a deluge of PM's from people who were involved in the process suggesting that they felt "out grouped" because of the behavior of certain other people. Obviously I'm not going to name names, but some of the people in PM's were very much a part of the process.

You should probably hit that chinlock soon or else you won't have anything left for the Hart Foundation when the tag list gets revealed next month. God, I may not even be around by then.

Generally speaking I haven't gotten much worked up about the overall list results. Sure I've bitched about Bret, but most of that is in good fun, even if I do think he's absurdly overrated. That said the Casas drop does sting and I wanted to say something about why. As one of the co-organizers of this (Steven has done all the real work, but we did develop the basic concept together), I have had more of a vested interest in the process than most. The desire to be inclusive was something I was always all in on, in part because I wanted the GWE to be about getting people to watch more stuff, but also because to me the same old perspectives don't really cut it for a project that is grandiose by design. My hope was that this project would be about exchanging ideas and thoughts about matches, promotions, styles, wrestlers, et. and that the end result would be a scenario where we all got to watch a bunch of new cool shit, but also where the cream would rise to the top in the end. It is absolutely true that the final list is not something everyone will be happy with, but it is something that I generally wanted to be representative. Very early on in the results process I started to realize that no luchador would finish in the top ten and I had come to terms with that. My hope was that one would make the top 15. None did. None even made the top twenty. I see that as a major failure. Some feel the same way about the Euro scene, or shootstyle, or Joshi. I don't, even though at this point in my fandom I would probably rather watch two of those three things more than lucha. I have multiple reasons for this some of which speak to my own criteria biases, some of which have to do with business model issues, and some of which have to do with the process itself (namely the fact that no one was advocating anyone from those groups as a number one contender). But the biggest reason is that it just feels wrong to me to see a style that has produced so much volume fail to get a single candidate into the top fifteen. Inevitable or not it comes across as a rejection of history to me, and I can't escape it. I understand some will read that as whining, or bitterness, or elitism. It really isn't intended to be any of those things. That said I would be being dishonest if I said that it didn't bother me that no luchador could even make the top twenty. It's very likely that I wouldn't care at all if I was just a participant. But as someone who pushed and promoted this from day one, and helped set up most of the process, I have a weird sense of ownership about the project as a whole that I want to be proud of. No luchador in the top fifth is something that really makes me wish my name wasn't associated with it beyond just my list. I have no clue if that is a good thing, bad thing, or an egotistical thing. I'm just thinking out loud. Jimmy Redman's journey is great, but Jimmy Redman's journey got nine luchadors on her ballot. Nearly a third of voters didn't include them at all. I don't even feel like I'm part of the same universe as those fans, and I say that knowing full well that some of them may be people I like personally and deeply respect. A project about favorites would have been boring as fuck to me, but it would have been less alienating if nothing else.

The great satan Bret Hart is still alive. The worst mistake I've ever made was including him when Bob Holly was nominated

There is a thread for this already

Bret is better than Takada and Stevie Ray at least

Hilarious for multiple reasons

May be time for a Bret v. The World thread after GWE

Yes it is possible. Not sure anyone has denied that. Or maybe. Just maybe. The pendulum switched to US mainstream, whatever the reason. With loathed guys like Angle and Michaels gaining spots (and not one or two spots), a larger number of US big 2 promotion guys being ranked, names like Savage still around, Cena placing ridiculously high. Yeah. Maybe. Just maybe. The number of voters was always going to create a situation where certain guys were going to benefit by being on every ballot. I think most of the more controversial American names left fall in that category, but I guess we will see when we get a look at average vote

I hope Bret wins it

Yes it is possible. Not sure anyone has denied that.

I think it's ridiculous too, but I get it a bit more because like Austin he's legit one of the biggest stars in wrestling history and I think that influenced the thinking of many voters.

What system did you propose? I definitely feel like this system rewards being on a large number of ballots too much, and I'm aware other kinds of ranking systems for this kind of thing exist, but I don't know anything about them. You can't do more than what we did. It is what it is. Thankfully my top 100 is the only one that is right

Regal, Arn and Savage are surviving on the strength of being guys everyone will rate. Probably Bret too, though people inexplicably think he's a top tier guy. The weighted voting system was something I wanted in place in part to offset this, but here we are.

Casas falls and Trump wins. In 2026 I'm going with my gut and not rating any of the AJPW guys other than Akiyama and Taue. Bret will never recover for me. Poor man's Jim Brunzell.

I don't view it solely as that, but it is a factor. I just can't pretend someone being great for two years and sucking for ten trumps, someone who was very good for twenty. What I don't get about the Taue v. Akiyama comparison is the idea that Taue's peak is clearly better to the point where it would negate all the other advantages Akiyama has. I can see the argument for Taue's peak being better (not sure I'd buy it, but I can see it), but so much better that it means Akiyama having a much longer run of greatness? I just can't buy it.