Dylan Waco

Styles placement is being panned but he has had more years as a good worker or better than Bret, and a superior peak. Yes I'm running that stance into the ground.

I wasn't as high on Rush v. Casas as some, so I'm probably not the guy to defend that. What i would say is that something like the Dragon Lee v. Kamatiachi series is probably a reasonable example of what you are talking about here. I love that stuff precisely because it doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is - cutting edge, crazy, highspot wrestling, with enough learned psychology and build to make it more than just fun. I absolutely think it's fair to criticize it along the lines of what you wrote above. What I would say though is that the uniqueness of the way lucha uses near falls, and the nature of finishes within lucha, allows me to enjoy those matches more.

Another impressive thing about Buddy finishing so high is that he did it on the back of a territory that is barely known, and is often treated as a irrelevant even when it's brought up.

I see Satanico as a win over all. I had him in my top 15, but considering the fact that probably a third of the voters don't seem to like lucha much if at all, a top 40 appearance is impressive. I myself wish I had rated him one spot lower than I did, but get the arguments for him in the top five too. I see Buddy as another win. He came from complete off the radar to a top forty guy on the back of footage found in his garage and one year of AWA stuff. That is a huge turnaround. At his best he's one of the best wrestlers of all time, and his average vote was great. I do wish he'd finished higher, but what's key is he's at least on the periphery of the top tier. That said I'm mad at Devon for not having him at number one (he originally did). El Dandy finishing ahead of Satanico is shocking.

Fine with where AJ dropped. Wish that Fujiwara would have done better, but I don't see it as a grave injustice either. There are a lot of guys ahead of both of them that I don't buy, but I'll whine about that later. I don't really think AJ in someone's top ten is particularly outrageous either. He wasn't near mine, but I was shocked by how well I thought much of his TNA work held up.

Not sure if it is, but I will look around for it.

No, this series is about my family and Will burying me and Dustin rating Randy Fucking Orton

Kris and I didn't have our first common placement until 11.

I think I had Choshu at 40, so I'm fine with him at 41, though there are a few guys above him that I don't buy (Bret and Savage off the top of my head). That said the best sign here is that Buddy Rose and the four top luchadors all made the top 40. For all the complaining about how the expanded voter base effected results, the presence of those 5 guys at this stage is something I wouldn't have expected even from a poll solely restricted to PWO regulars. I'm not sure how many if any will be around when we get to the top 20, let alone the top 10. But 1/8 of the top 40 being those guys is great news to me (you could probably add Regal in here as well).

1 point... There's something hilarious about me low balling Martel being the reason he finished below Ted. Glad both guys dropped here. Good showing for both, but neither needed to be near the top third.

Glad Tully is finally off the board. I've never been as high on him as others, but even allowing for my status as an outlier on him, I think it's really bizarre to see him above guys like Valentine and Dundee. I guess he had 6 or 7 years of being really good, and maybe some people would argue he was really great during that entire run, I struggle to see any case for him as a top 50 guy. I find Brock's ranking more ridiculous, but I do understand it in the abstract. I don't really understand Tully this high.

The Flair matches are wildly overrated by some. Kerry match is great

Punk was the guy who benefited most to me by head-to-head comparisons. I'm not entirely sure if I could do it again that I'd have him one spot above Valentine, but he'd probably have been my 49 as when I look at him next to those around him he just feels better to me. Long career, with multiple epic feuds in an age where NO ONE had epic feuds, highest of high end matches, got the most out of being a worst athlete than me, et. Wish he'd rated over Bret Hart.

I had Punk at 48. I'll write more about it when I'm not on the bus.

One major change from 2006 to 2016 is that in 2006 the default position was still largely to bow to all things Japan. Perhaps it's swung too far in the other direction, perhaps not, but it's a change

I get why people would shake their head at it. Hell I might myself in ten years. I would note (without spoiling anything) that while some might consider me "anti-AJPW" I voted the four pillars plus 1 and the top gajin from the early 90s all in my top 30.

On the one hand Breaks is a blow. He was my highest ranked guy I didn't really consider for number one, and it hurt me to have him as low as I did (21). I think he's the best I've ever seen from the Euro scene, and probably among the most immediately translatable workers I've ever seen. He's easily a top 50 guy in my eyes, and more importantly I can't really conceive of a world where those who have seen him don't think of him at that level. On the other hand when the morning started there were 6 guys I could think of on the board who were left that I really didn't want to fall outside the top fifty. Five of them survived. The fact that El Dandy, Satanico, Buddy Rose, Negro Casas, and El Hijo del Santo are all still alive is a good thing, especially given the number of ballots and some of the trends we've seen up to this point I love Valentine, Hennig and Dundee and I'm actually pretty happy with where they finished. All of them finished right around where I had them on my ballot. Owen is strange because I didn't include him and kind of felt bad about it briefly, then didn't care. Now I see him on here and while I think he's a bit too high, I also don't think it looks bad at all. I also kind of wish I'd voted for him and not Bret, because I actually think he scores better than Bret on the things I care about, and Bret is going to be wildly overrated anyhow. Andre finishing 51 is a bit ridiculous to me, but I do like the idea of Andre as the gatekeeper of the top 50 Without looking at who exactly is left, Brock and Tully feel overrated to me. I've never gotten Tully the way some have, and seems absurd to me that he will rank over someone like Greg Valentine. Brock is the most advantaged wrestler of all time by a massive margin, which isn't an immediate disqualifier, but I just can't get behind him this high. Shawn I don't agree with, but I get it, and it doesn't really irk me. I just don't want him to finish top fifteen. Finlay still being on the board is mildly surprising. I have to assume he will fall soon.

Han strikes me as a guy who comes across as the "bare minimum" vote for people who didn't want to leave shootstyle off all together, but didn't have time, know where else to go, or want to dig deeper into it.

Baba is definitely better than Andre and should have rated higher. I'm an Andre fan, but agree that he's a guy where the pendulum has swung too far.

I'm busy as hell right now but Han ahead of Tamura? Nah

This is like when my last second omission of The Andersons from my WON HOF ballot knocked them off the ballot forever.

How do you view his TNA work? To me he really dragged down talented guys like Nigel, Styles, and even Joe into the sewer with him, but as someone who may be a fan of some of the stuff I dislike, I'm curious to know how you look at the last ten years of his career.

Oh yea. Pillman. He's one of my five favorite wrestlers ever, possibly as high as number 3. I had him in the 90s. I don't really have a problem with where he ranked because guys who's candidacy I find as problematic as his or worse have popped up around him. Parv said Jericho had a better career than him, which I agree with, but I didn't cast my ballot based on that. I cast my ballot on who was the better wrestler. To my eyes Pillman was one of the best underdog babyfaces I've ever seen from 89-92. I don't think I could honestly call Jericho "one of the best of..." anything and believe it or not I'm not saying that as a blanket dismissal of him. I just don't think he showed himself to be top class at a role or style the way Pillman did. People can say that Pillman's run as a top talent was short and I'd agree. But guys with similar or shorter runs have done around as well or will do better, and keep in mind that I kept Pillman in my 90s in part because of that. You could also argue that his list of truly great matches is short and I'd probably agree with that, but I have great memories of being dazzled by him live as a kid, and I think as a consistent week-to-week performer during the era in question he produced as much good as anyone, while also having things like the Liger matches that I regard as true classics that hold up and have historical significance at least on a micro level. I said this elsewhere, but in terms of length and perfectly playing the role(s) assigned to him, Pillman's peak is about as long as Bret Hart's. Bret had more great matches, and the setting/booking/culture around him was much stronger which doesn't hurt either. Pillman was more consistent at least in my view during their peak years. I have Pillman below Bret, but I think it's an interesting comparison to think about.

I think Panther is someone who's stock has dropped. When I first go into lucha I was drawn to him because he had a couple of big dramatic performances that I could and did rally behind, and he was a guy who was sharper on the mat than most. The more lucha I watched, the less he stood out among his peers. I still rated him in the upper half, but he's a guy I probably would have put top 25 3 or 4 years ago, and I didn't even think about him on that level this go around. Since OJ mentioned it, I have to say that I really don't know what I'm missing with Atlantis. Of all the people I left off of my ballot he's probably the one I feel the most badly about NOT because it was an oversight, or because I rejected him for bad reasons, but because I want to see what others do and don't. At the very tail end of the process I stumbled onto a few matches/performances of his that I thought showed flashes of brilliance which actually really rocked me because I'd never seen that before. To me he's basically a Mexican Brad Armstrong, a guy who does a lot of things well, serves his role on the card, but whom has an aura of flatness that makes it impossible to really get into most of his matches. Even still he has had a long and consistent career on tape and for that reason not including him is probably the worst example of a guy fitting the things I often look for who didn't make my list. Jericho and Angle are overrated, but both stayed in the bottom third of the 100 so I can live with it. I think people know my criticisms of them, but Jericho in particular is a guy who ages very poorly. If you are going purely off memories of him and ignore his last few runs I could see him as a bottom five type guy maybe, but he doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. Angle has had more years as a bad (or at least frustrating) worker than a good one. I consider guys like Tajiri, Togo and Ishikawa doing as well as they did a huge success. I'm also so far behind in this thread that I have forgotten most of the outlandish things I wanted to respond to, though I would note that I really do wish El-P had put Kevin Nash on his ballot

To me Hogan is a guy who benefits from footage. I grew up in Flair country, as a Crockett Kid. Even in liking Hogan to a degree as a youth, he was never my favorite, and I always saw him as more "fake" than my guys. I never really embraced the idea of him as a good worker, but came to see him as cariable and capable shortly after the last SC poll. What turned me around on him was watching a variety of Hogan from all over. When the good matches kept adding up I had no choice but to concede that it wasn't always his opponents. It couldn't be. What did he bring? It's hard to say. I agree that in his best moments he was an excellent seller but those moments rarely lasted for an entire match, let alone years at a time. His comeback and fire was often great - and often hokey and absurd. He had great timing, and that was probably his most consistent trait, but his bad selling moments often undermined it. The charisma is undeniably an element but it's hard to quantify. And yet I think from 79-87 or so there is far more good Hogan than bad, and quite a bit of great Hogan. And even after that there is an awful lot that is good or better. And this occurs opposite a wide variety of opponents. I find this impossible to deny. I think the old Loss argument against him is the most compelling reason to exclude him, but at this point I find the idea that he was a poor worker to be an odd sort of denialism that doesn't match with reality as I know even if I can't fully explain why he was good. I didn't vote for him.