Dylan Waco

I don't think it's clear at all that Austin is a worse candidate than Bret, and Austin has the benefit of being one of the biggest stars in wrestling history. I think he's outrageously high, but I also get why he is. I had Akiyama at 8. By the time 2026 hits he could be in the running for my top spot. I love Taue, but it's really hard for me to see a case for him over Akiyama if you paid any attention at all to Japan in the 2000's-present.

Bret had 1/3 the career of Akiyama at best, but he did have cool sunglasses

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006. Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I think there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE. Akiyama, Bryan, Casas, Regal, Rey... Misawa's last run doesn't change him in where he is. Liger, just a little? Yeah, it's a small group. I would say including Akiyama in this group is true, but maybe in a different way than the others. For some post-06 Akiyama is huge to his case, but I get the distinct feeling that for many others it's not even on the radar at all. I'm less certain about that with the others.

I think from the available evidence of people who have talked about things publicly we know that a lot of people are just generally down on lucha, Joshi, and shoot-style. WOS is a separate bag, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of people omitting certain folks from the other categories has as much to do with not liking those styles as it does with not watching any of it all because they never got to any of it.

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006. Fair point, but I don't see that one as an injustice as far as "where are these guys ranking vs. where WOULD they rank if everyone had seen everything?" I think they would do well either way. That was really my point. You see injustice in one place, but not in the other. I get that. But I don't think it's for the reasons you mentioned. The Japanese sacred cow bubble has popped for many

I think this has been a down year for them in that regard, as was last year. But Cena has been absent for a huge chunk of that. He's not the tv worker that Rey was/is but no one is. In terms of volume of output Cena ranks in the top tier of wrestling history as far as I'm concerned.

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

I think Cena's body of work brutally destroys all three of the aforementioned Joshi workers combined, but I say that as someone who firmly believes that there is far more good tv wrestling now than at any point in history.

Just like with any social rights based movement, figures from the past being judged by the standards of the day will produces for lack of a better construct winners and losers wrestlers like Madusa, Nakano, and Hokuto come to mind as strong female characters that rarely if at all seem to express traits or actions that are driven by patriarchal expectations or desires while others will be seen as exploitative minstrel showesque "rape porn" but it seems that even you are implying a monolithic fandom from female-feminists as I could cite anecdotal cases of female-feminists that enjoyed joshi death matches. I anticipated this criticism and almost adjusted my post to deal with it, but figured it would be more productive to just leave things as they were. My point wasn't to argue that the correct feminist position was the one I was advancing, but rather to note that there are feminist who have and likely will continue to react that way to something like a Chiggy/Dump or a Kudo death match. As you note there are also feminist who do or will enjoy those matches for one reason or another. That said, I do think critique of things in the past are likely to be deeper, more hard hitting, or at the very least more likely to result in rejection. In part this is because they are things that have already occurred. No redemption is possible, no adaptation can be made. They existed and judgment to be rendered. By contrast a worker, promotion, genre, et can respond to feminist critique, or at least directly engage with criticism going forward. Perhaps more importantly, feminist voices can engage in narrative creation which presumes and promotes the best in certain performers and bouts. Of course all of this is shaky because we have no real idea where feminism, or more importantly feminists, are going to be in ten years. I can just as easily envision a world where Shimmer and AJW are both rejected as male owned enterprises that profited off of the exploitation of women's sexuality, as I can a world where the corporate WWE's increasingly positive depiction of women in the ring is viewed as the most significant achievement in the history of women's wrestling.

I think Morton was a better singles wrestler than Eaton, and I prefer selling as an art, to offense as an art. So I had Ricky above Eaton. That said it's hard not to be happy about Eaton finishing so well because he's such a nice guy and such a consistent hard worker. I mean I'm sure he'll never see this and would likely barely care at all if he did, but it feels like a nice gesture even if I don't personally believe he's one of the 30 best ever.

I doubt that, Joshi is a pretty dead style and its prime is even further in the rear view mirror, I can't imagine there will be some sort of Joshi review, unless its something like LLPW which wasn't beaten to death by guys in the 90. you're missing on a couple larger points here: 1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans. 2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually. 1. May be true. I hope it's true, even though I sort of hate the top-down model of "join the power structure to beat the power structure!" of change that such a thing implies. 2. Is already happening, but it's had little effect on how people think or talk about the Joshi of the past up until this point. To be perfectly frank the rape pornish elements of something like Chiggy v. Dump is something that isn't likely to play with many feminist either, and that's something that shouldn't be undersold. Someone like Kudo is rated even by many of the predominantly male critics of the Joshi style, but the last time I tried to watch a Kudo death match in the presence of a self-identified feminist woman it was met with total disgust, and a long discussion about what the existence of such a match said about women in wrestling and male wrestling fans (note that this was maybe two months ago). I understand what you are saying, but your point seems heavily dependent on the idea that feminism is a monolith and that feminism is a sort of "static" position that is fully fleshed out, rather than a constantly evolving egalitarian impulse that adjusts to situational realities. A far more interesting thing to think about is whether or not feminism (or perhaps more accurately feminists) will shape or influence the depiction and characterization of wrestling talent (male and female) in the years ahead in significant ways. Thinking along these lines I actually think it is far more likely that current female performers on all scales and in all locations (Hojo, Asuka, Bayley, Banks, Lovelace, Athena, et) will receive measurable support in 2026, than it is that many of the old Joshi performers will have their profiles resurrected. I say this in part because I think Joshi may be subject to feminist critique in certain cases (see Kudo, Chiggy/Dump, et.) and partially because social movements tend to exalt those who are presumed to have emerged from within them at the expense of those who are seen as predecessors of sorts who may not have been ideal representatives for one reason or another.

Here is the thing. If I start factoring in those other things (promos, presence as a character, angles, drawing power, et) I don't see how they really help Bret's case either.

I was hoping Santo would make the top 25, but I doubted he'd rate much higher. For that reason I look at him at 29 and say "that sucks, but it's not brutal." I'd be a bit surprised if Casas didn't make the top 20, but anything is possible. Unfortunately lucha will always be undersold on collective projects like this. Happy Cena did as well as he did, but I really can't buy the idea of Austin or Bret ahead of him. Austin I sort of convinced myself I had to include at the last second. At least he rated above Shawn. I won't let the Bret thing go, because the more I have thought about his career over the course of this, the more I feel that I could have left him off without any regret. At this point I figure he'll make the top 25, which I can't defend in any way. I'd have to think about it, but with a team of 151 voters, I might be able to convince myself Bret is the most overrated wrestler in history at this point. That I contributed to that irks me and I wouldn't do it again. Even though I didn't vote for him I find Shawn more defensible than Bret at this level because if you love his post-comeback stuff he really thickens out his resume. That said I do find something amusing about the fact that many of the people likely to criticize Shawn this high all voted for him (like me with Bret ).

What I say is that you probably won't get it. Obviously we have a testimonial in this thread that seems to go against that, but I can't even imagine getting Buddy without an analysis of the week-to-week. The context of Portland wrestling is central to his case.

After having watched hundreds of Joshi matches in the final weeks before the poll I just can't agree with this even though I really want to. Do I believe that people (perhaps myself included) oversimplify Joshi and other styles at our worst? Almost certainly yes. That said the criticisms I have pointed to about Joshi as a style are criticisms that could apply to Nagayo and Jaguar before Toyota was even on the scene. That she was the absolute worst expression of those habits and flaws I won't argue, but she was in no way the first, nor was she an anomaly. Going through the footage I discovered that I much prefer almost all of the Joshi workers as tag wrestlers. I've thought a lot about why that was the case, and the best I can come up with is that it seems to have forced their hand a bit more on selling, and made the "go-go" elements a bit less eye roll-y to me. In any event there are certainly people who understood build (Kudo) and could sell there ass off (Hokuto), but part of what makes them stand out is that they are exceptional. If the idea is that the discussion of Joshi as a style is too absolute in its criticisms I suppose I could buy it, but if the discussion is that there aren't consistent and unique trends within the style that many people will find problematic I think it's way off base

I'm not shocked by it, I just don't think he belongs anywhere near this high.

Loved all three of these shows. I hear rumor more may be coming

All we can ask is for people to give him a chance. If he doesn't cut it for you I strongly disagree obviously, and I'd love to know why, but I wouldn't want anyone to rank someone for peer pressure reasons. All of this is another way of saying that if I could do it again Bret doesn't make my list.

I'm not sure the ranking of Joshi will be embarrassing, unless you are purely looking at this from the perspective of "we should include them to get the style and/or females represented." I watched a shit load of Joshi right before balloting was due, and it's really a bunch of wrestlers who range from shit to very good at a style I find incredibly flawed. My criticism isn't "they scream a lot," it's that the go-go style allows for little sink in, and the style is almost anti-selling at times which is not something that is going to fair well for me. I suppose I could have tried to be more representative and slide on a Dynamite Kansai and Bull Nakano, but it would have been for all the wrong reasons. Of course it's possible that the pendulum will swing again in ten years and I"ll think "fuck I was a dumbass for not loving all this Joshi" but I doubt it. On the other hand I could see someone like a Heidi Lovelace making my top 100 in ten years.

Matt leaving off Japan bothers me less in a world where people freely leave off lucha because they don't "get it."

Several people have said they don't really get him. One of the more bizarre things of the process to me.

Loved the show with my brothers, especially Dustin's stammering and the defenses of Cena and Christian. Listening to the show with elliot and Mando now. Fun so far.

The case for Dandy over him (and I had Satanico higher) is that Dandy was a more beautiful, multi-dimensional wrestler at his peak. I'm not surprised Dandy finished higher. He's been pimped as an elite talent since before the last poll. Man I love Dandy, and I think people not getting him is utterly bizarre, but the number of people who haven't gotten him vis a vis Satanico feels really large. I would have thought for sure Dandy wouldn't make the top 75 based on early trends. Finishing ahead of Satanico is a shocker

Hasn't the top 100 had one European guy? Either people aren't watching the stuff, or they're watching it and deciding that no one great wrestled there, which sounds like the result of a pro-elsewhere bias. I don't even care about the niche that is the continent of Europe, it's just the easiest example I could think of. At the end of the day as long as you're happy with the list that's all that matters. Let's not go crazy in defending it, though. Mainstream US guys clearly did get more chances than other equally talented wrestlers. You sure? All the AJPW sacred cows are still alive, and yet no hand wringing is going on on that front. I wonder why?

Because Bret Hart isn't better than Buddy Rose?