Dylan Waco

It wasn't close to as hot IIRC. I looked at the results on Snyder fairly recently and could look again. Someone should make a strong case for him

Verne didn't oppose him or run his towns at all and I think Bruiser may have come in here or there for appearances in the very early 80's though I may be wrong. I myself think if Verne had taken his territory and then carved out the dead Detroit office he may have been able to survive longer. But then it is Verne so probably not

What's the argument for Hennig? Snyder is a candidate worth considering, but I'm not sold on him. A huge chunk of his career was spent as a secondary figure in his own promotion. He was a draw of some note and won the U.S. and Omaha version of the World title, but I'm not seeing him as a consistent drawing card. Nor do I know enough about him as a worker to advocate for him on that level.

Bret Austin Shawn Kawada Misawa Kobashi

That's not going to happen

1974 5/4/74 Minneapolis TV Superstar Billy Graham beat Chi Chi Rosario Baron Von Raschke beat Tom DeMarco Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Bill Howard & Joe Guzman Larry Hennig beat George Gadaski Bull Bullinski beat Pancho Vasquez This is their first appearance as a team that I can find. They worked the following week on tv too and a few other tv tapings I didn’t list later on. As will become obvious there was a slow build for the team in many ways. Both guys had been working in openers and low in the mid-card so “Greg didn’t pay his dues/got pushed purely on nepotism” is something we can cast aside as obvious bullshit. 5/18/74 Minneapolis TV Ivan Putski beat Armando Rodriguez Superstar Billy Graham beat Frank Hill Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Paul Perschmann & Bob Amel Larry Hennig beat Caesar Pabon Baron Von Raschke beat George Gadaski Not really notable, but Perschmann is Buddy Rose, so of course it’s going to get a bit of a mention from me 5/22/74 Duluth, MN @ Arena Indian Strap Match Wahoo McDaniel beat Buddy Wolff Geoff Portz beat Superstar Billy Graham dq after Graham rammed Geoff's head into the ring post Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Hennig & Paul Perschmann Larry Heiniemi beat Bull Bullinski via pin As far as I can tell this was their first Arena match together as a tag team. They would work Hennig/Rose in both singles, tags and handicap matches fairly regularly. 5/29/74 Fargo, ND @ Civic Auditorium Strap Match Wahoo McDaniel vs Buddy Wolff Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell vs Baron Von Raschke & Horst Hoffman Ivan Putski vs Larry Heiniemi Larry Hennig beat Bull Bullinski Mildly interesting as the Flyers are working second from the top against two guys that were presented pretty strongly during the period. Probably the first time they were presented on a card in a “drawing capacity” though Fargo was not a major town. 6/6/74 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada @ Arena Indian Strap Match with Buddy Wolff strapped to Ivan Putski outside the ring Wahoo McDaniel beat Larry Heinemi Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq Ray Stevens beat Gene Kiniski dq Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Paul Pershmann & Buddy Wolff 2/3 1. Buddy Wolff won 1st fall 2. Gagne & Brunzell won 2nd fall 3. Gagne & Brunzell won 3rd fall Baron Von Raschke beat Geoff Portz by submission with a claw hold Horst Hoffman beat Bull Bullinski by submission with a claw hold Mike Snyder beat Bobby Jones 12:00 6/8/74 St Paul, MN @ Auditorium Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Wahoo McDaniel & Dick Murdoch 2/3 Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Hennig & Paul Perschmann Baron Von Raschke beat Bull Bullinski Horst Hoffman beat Billy Howard via pin Geoff Portz beat Caesar Pavlon via pin att: 9,000+ SRO The Flyers are getting the “up and coming” babyface act push, solidly in the mid-card but not really a major part of the shows. The number for St. Paul is very good for this time period. 6/12/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena 10th Anniversary Show Steel Cage Match, Special Referee: George Gadaski Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat The Crusher & Wahoo McDaniel to regain the AWA Tag Team Title when Stevens pinned McDaniel in 16:12 Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq in 7:19 when Baron Von Raschke interfered and pounded Putski Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff 2/3 1. Wolff beat Brunzell in 11:22 2. Heiniemi & Wolff were dq'ed at 3:13 for tossing Gagne over the top rope 3. Brunzell pinned Wolff in 5:32 Baron Von Raschke beat Geoff Portz in 21:59 Kay Noble (sub Cora Combs) beat Vivian Vachon via pin in 12:14 Larry Hennig beat Paul Perschmann via pin in 8:00 att: 7,206 Note: Crusher & Wahoo were billed as the AWA Tag Team Champions by two different newspapers going into this match. Both papers reported Bockwinkel & Stevens regained the AWA Tag Team Title from Crusher & Wahoo. Strong number for Denver during the period. The card is solid up top, with Flyers again working third from the top, albeit in a decidedly complimentary role. It is notable to pay attention to these main events though as it shows you how strong tag matches were promoted/could draw in the AWA if you had stars or teams that were over. 6/15/74 Minneapolis TV Wahoo McDaniel beat Inca Peru Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Bob Amel & Peter Lee Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Billy Howard & Percy Pringle Larry Hennig beat Tom DeMarco Billy Robinson beat Frank Diamond Superstar Billy Graham beat Chi Chi Rosario 6/15/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Arena The Crusher & Baron Von Raschke were co-winners of a two ring 24 man $50,000 battle royal Nick Bockwinkel drew Wahoo McDaniel Baron Von Raschke beat Frank Nixon Superstar Billy Graham beat Oddjob via pin Larry Hennig beat Bull Bullinski via pin Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Blackjack Lanza & Paul Perschmann also in Battle Royal: Geoff Portz, Ray Stevens, Horst Hoffman, Andre Rousimoff, Larry Heiniemi, Chris Taylor, Buddy Wolff, Billy Robinson, Ivan Putski, Moose Cholak, Ken Patera. att: 10,550 Was this the Percy Pringle? Lanza was the guy Rose emulated the most at during this time period if you believe him so it must have been cool for him to team with him here. Flyers work the opener on a show with a battle royal which always did well in the AWA and Crusher in Milwaukee which was huge during this period. 6/29/74 Minneapolis, MN @ Auditorium Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham COR Billy Robinson beat Larry Heiniemi via pin Handicap Match, Hennig must beat both men within 20 minute time limit Larry Hennig beat Jim Brunzell in 13:00 but was unable to beat Greg Gagne in the remaining 7:00 Vivian Vachon beat Mars Monroe via pin Bull Bullinski beat Tom DeMarco via pin Paul Perschmann beat Doug Somers via pin att: 6,426 It’s interesting to me that they went to these handicap matches on a lot of shows during this run. In a way it probably worked well as a way to further build the credibility of Brunzell and Gagne. 7/12/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena Ivan Putski beat Billy Graham dq in 10:15 when the referee caught Graham using brass knuckles The Crusher beat Ray Stevens dq in 12:00 after Stevens jumped off the top rope onto Crusher Billy Robinson beat Baron Von Raschke dq in 14:55 when Baron tossed Billy over the top rope Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Hennig & Paul Perschmann 2/3 att: 5,112 7/13/74 Minneapolis, MN @ Auditorium Special Referee: Don Curtis AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Billy Robinson & Geoff Portz 2/3 Verne Gagne & Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Hennig & Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff Wilbur Snyder beat Bull Bullinski 15:45 Paul Perschmann beat Kenny Jay att: 5,320 Interesting six-man here that was positioned second from the top largely on the strength of Verne’s involvement. This is actually a fairly average figure for Summer in the AWA in the Twin Cities at this point. 7/20/74 Chicago, IL @ International Amphitheatre Billy Robinson beat AWA Champion Verne Gagne 2/3 (no title change, Gagne's foot ruled to be on rope) AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat The Crusher & Wahoo McDaniel 2/3 Ivan Putski beat Baron Von Raschke dq Mitsu Arakawa beat Moose Cholak dq Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff 2/3 Mike Snyder beat Paul Perschmann 7/27/74 Minneapolis, MN @ Auditorium Superstar Billy Graham & Baron Von Raschke beat the Crusher & Ivan Putski 2/3 Ray Stevens beat Wahoo McDaniel via pin Nick Bockwinkel beat Billy Robinson dq Larry Hennig beat Buddy Wolff Horst Hoffman beat Bull Bullinski via pin Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Billy Howard & Paul Perschmann Working deep underneath now, but both of these cards are stacked shows. You get the feeling they are just looking to find the right opponent for them. 8/9/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena The Crusher & Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham & Baron Von Raschke 2/3 1. Crusher pinned Von Raschke 2. Von Raschke beat Crusher 3. Putski pinned Graham Ray Stevens beat Billy Robinson Handicap Match: Larry Hennig must beat both Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell in 20 minutes Larry Hennig beat Jim Brunzell via pin in 9:10 but could not beat Greg Gagne within the 20:00 time limit so Gagne & Brunzell were declared the winners Horst Hoffman beat Bull Bullinski by submission with a claw hold att: 5,212 Another one of those handicap matches. 8/10/74 Minneapolis TV Ivan Putski beat Bill Howard Larry Hennig beat Julio Rodriguez Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens dq Bull Bullinski beat Pancho Vasquez Kenny Jay beat Angel Rivera Unusual tv match between two teams of some note, though obviously the Flyers will still very green as a unit. I don’t know this but I assume they did some injury angle involving Greg here as he was off most shows for the next month and Brunzell was working singles. 9/12/74 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada @ Arena Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat AWA Tag Team Champions The Crusher & Billy Robinson dq Ivan Putski beat The Brute Larry Hennig beat Buddy Wolff Chris Taylor beat Horst Hoffman Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Paul Pershmann & Khosrow Vaziri Dave Muir beat Frenchy Dubois Att: 7,231 Good number in Winnipeg for a solid tag main event. Note that Buddy is teaming with Sheik v. Flyers here. 9/13/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena Horst Hoffman beat The Crusher via pin in 9:50 Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Greg Gagne & Larry Hennig dq Billy Robinson beat Buddy Wolff via pin Bobby Heenan beat Jim Brunzell att: 4,897 Note: Another listing has The Crusher winning the main event Not a particularly good number in Denver, but not awful either. Interesting as they team Greg with Larry up top and work Brunzell against Heenan in the undercard. 9/14/74 Minneapolis, MN Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens & Bobby Heenan beat Larry Hennig & Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell Horst Hoffman beat Billy Robinson dq Handicap Match Ivan Putski drew Buddy Wolff & Paul Perschmann Chris Taylor beat Khosrow Vaziri Yugo Babich beat Bull Bullinski att: 5,189 The first real involvement of the High Flyers in a main event match. Average number. 9/16/74 Davenport, IA @ John O'Donnell Stadium Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens drew Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell 20:00 Horst Hoffman beat Billy Robinson dq Buddy Wolff drew Geoff Portz Larry Hennig beat Yugo Babich dq The first time the Flyers work a main event without a partner. Note that this is an outdoor show in a baseball stadium. I actually know someone who attended this show and he claims it was a capacity crowd, but that can’t be documented and I would be somewhat skeptical of it (capacity probably would have been 5-6k depending on if they allowed seating on the field). 9/20/74 Duluth, MN @ Arena Larry Hennig beat Ray Stevens Nick Bockwinkel beat Geoff Portz (sub Billy Robinson) Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Bobby Heenan & Paul Perschmann 2-0 Khosrow Vaziri drew Yugo Babich Fuck this is maybe my all time “which footage existed” heel tag team. 9/21/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Arena Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat AWA Tag Team Champions The Crusher & Billy Robinson dq European rules match Horst Hoffman beat Ivan Putski Larry Hennig beat Buddy Wolff Geoff Portz beat Stan Pulaski Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Paul Perschmann & Billy Howard att: 8,870 Milwaukee really was the best AWA town during this era easily. The Flyers still aren’t getting anything of note in that town. 9/28/74 St Paul, MN @ Civic Center AWA Champion Verne Gagne beat Horst Hoffman dq when Hoffman refused to release a claw hold on Gagne while both were outside the ring at 26:00 Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens when Nick & Ray swere unable to beat Greg & Jim within 20 minutes Billy Robinson beat Stan Pulaski 16:30 Geoff Portz beat Bull Bullinski 13:20 Bob Backlund beat Billy Howard Vivian Vachon beat Mars Monroe 11:15 att: 5,101 Another average number in the twin cities, with the Flyers surviving in a time limit challenge second from the top. 9/29/74 Green Bay, WI @ Brown County Veteran’s Memorial Arena AWA Tag Team Champions The Crusher & Billy Robinson beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens 2/3 1. Bockwinkel & Stevens won 1st fall 2. Crusher & Robinson won 2nd fall 3. Crusher & Robinson won 3rd fall Larry Hennig beat Larry Heiniemi Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Bobby Heenan & Paul Perschmann 2-0 Geoff Portz drew Buddy Wolff Crusher still rules Wisconsin. Flyers v. Heenan/Rose 2/3 falls – even straight falls – seems to awesome to actually exist. 10/4/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena AWA Champion Verne Gagne beat Horst Hoffman via pin Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell Larry Heiniemi beat Larry Hennig Buddy Wolff beat Geoff Portz att: 3,117 Not a good number in Denver. I question how much people bought Hoffman as a challenger, but you can’t absolve Flyers v. Bock/Stevens entirely. 10/5/74 Minneapolis, MN AWA Tag Team Champions The Crusher & Billy Robinson beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens Larry Hennig no contest Larry Heiniemi Horst Hoffman beat Chris Taylor COR Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Yugo Babich & Stan Pulaski Geoff Portz drew Buddy Wolff Back down the card in Minneapolis. 10/9/74 Rockford, IL @ Boylan High School Larry Hennig & Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens & Bobby Heenan Horst Hoffman beat Billy Robinson dq Kim Duk beat ? George Gadaski beat ? Note: El Bracero Jose Martine lost to either Duk or Gadaski. Spot show main event. 10/17/74 Cheyenne, WY The Crusher beat Nick Bockwinkel Ray Stevens beat Larry Hennig Geoff Portz beat Paul Perschmann Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff 10/18/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena Larry Hennig & Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens & Bobby Heenan AWA Tag Team Champions Billy Robinson & the Crusher beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff Geoff Portz beat Paul Perschmann att: 3,567 Another less than impressive figure in Denver, though I don’t think it was horrible for the time period. Slightly up from the previous show without an AWA title match on the card at all and another six-man main event for the High Flyers. 10/19/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Auditorium Horst Hoffman beat the Crusher COR Chris Taylor beat Buddy Wolff Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell drew Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens Ivan Putski beat Yugo Babich Geoff Portz beat George Gadaski att: 6,112 sellout This is the smaller venue in Milwaukee and no surprise it sells out with Crusher on top. Interesting that Chris Taylor worked the semi-man over Bock/Stevens here. Verne and his amateur fetish? 10/23/74 Peoria, IL Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens dq Ivan Putski beat Buddy Wolff Chris Taylor beat Yugo Babich Bobby Heenan beat Tom DeMarco 10/26/74 Duluth, MN @ Arena Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell & Larry Hennig beat Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens & Bobby Heenan Horst Hoffman beat Ivan Putski Chris Taylor beat Baron Von Raschke dq Geoff Portz drew ? Another couple of smaller market main events. You get the sense that Verne trust them as a go to for spot shows, but isn’t sold (rightfully at this point) that they can do much in the big towns. 10/27/74 St Paul, MN Non Title Verne Gagne & Larry Hennig beat AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens Baron Von Raschke beat Billy Robinson dq European Rules Ivan Putski drew Horst Hoffman in 5 rounds Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Yugo Babich & Paul Perschmann Boris Breznikoff beat Doug Somers att: 6,233 Pretty good number for the era with the Flyers out of the main event picture in the bigger market. 11/2/74 Minneapolis, MN @ Auditorium Boris Breznikoff & Bobby Heenan beat Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell COR Billy Robinson & Ivan Putski & Chris Taylor beat Baron Von Raschke & Horst Hoffman & Larry Heiniemi Mil Mascaras beat Yugo Babich Geoff Portz beat Torpedo Guzman I would be really interested to see a number for this show. It’s possible that Mascaras could have drawn some, but on paper this looks like a show that could have been a disaster. This comes across like a real test of the Gagne/Brunzell’s ability to work on top in the bigger towns. 11/9/74 Minneapolis TV Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Yugo Babich & Paul Perschmann Horst Hoffman beat Armando Rodriguez Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff beat Caesar Pabon & Bob Amel Interesting tv main event. 11/9/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Auditorium Baron Von Raschke & Horst Hoffman beat The Crusher & Billy Robinson Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Frank Hill Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq Geoff Portz beat Paul Perschmann att: 6,112 sellout Following the test in the Twin Cities area they get booked second from the top in Milwaukee. Of course Crusher draws this house, but it is interesting to see the feeling out process. 11/16/74 St Paul, MN @ Civic Center Auditorium Larry Hennig & Ivan Putski & Chris Taylor beat Baron Von Raschke & Horst Hoffman & Superstar Billy Graham 2/3 Boris Breznikoff & Bobby Heenan beat Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell COR Geoff Portz drew Larry Heiniemi 20:00 Yugo Babich beat George Gadaski via pin Rock Riddle beat Kenny Jay att: 5,817 They stay hovering near the top in the Twin Cities, but not in the driver’s seat. 11/23/74 Chicago, IL @ International Amphitheatre Dick the Bruiser no contest the Sheik Boris Breznikoff beat Larry Hennig Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Mitsu Arakawa & Kim Duk Pepper Gomez beat Big K Rock Riddle drew Clem Turner Mike Snyder beat Mark Manson This is actually a better position than it looks on paper as they are working “evil foreigners” in a major town one of whom had been a major tag star in the area in years previous. Odd to see how light this show was on their top names. 11/29/74 Sheboygan, WI @ Municipal Armory Arm Wrestling Superstar Billy Graham beat Ivan Putski Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq in 24:11 Larry Hennig beat Larry Heiniemi 2/3 1. Hennig pinned Heiniemi 2. Heiniemi beat Hennig 3. Hennig pinned Heiniemi Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Paul Perschmann (subs for Yugo Babich & Rock Riddle) 2/3 in 28:40 1. Brunzell won 1st fall with a submission hold in 10:20 2. Heiniemi pinned Brunzell in 20:40 3. Gagne & Brunzell won 3rd fall in 28:40 Jim Brunzell beat Paul Perschmann via pin in 12:16 att: 3,431 Looks like this is a case of the Flyers working on the bottom in a hot opener. That Putski v. Graham match sounds horrifyingly long on paper. 12/6/74 Chicago, IL @ International Amphitheatre The Crusher beat Boris Breznikoff dq AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat Wilbur Snyder & Pepper Gomez Arm Wrestling Ivan Putski beat Superstar Billy Graham dq Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Paul Perschmann & Rock Riddle Larry Heiniemi beat Clem Turner Geoff Portz beat Big K Back down the card in Chicago for a much more heavily loaded show. 12/14/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Auditorium AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens beat the Crusher & Ivan Putski Boris Breznikoff beat Larry Hennig dq Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Rock Riddle & Yugo Babich Chris Taylor beat Baron Von Raschke Geoff Portz beat Bob Sweetan att: 6,112 sellout 12/26/74 Moline, IL @ Wharton Field House Nick Bockwinkel beat Larry Hennig Ivan Putski beat Baron Von Raschke Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Yugo Babich & Boris Breznikoff 12/27/74 Denver, CO @ Auditorium Arena No dq, No Time Limit Match The Crusher beat Boris Breznikoff Baron Von Raschke beat Superstar Billy Graham Ivan Putski beat Buddy Wolff 2/3 Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Yugo Babich & Rock Riddle 2-0 att: 4,327 It’s interesting to see this Babich/Riddle program. They are sliding back down the cards some and you wonder how or if this was set up on tv. 12/28/74 Minneapolis, MN The Crusher & Ivan Putski no contest AWA Tag Team Champions Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens Khosrow Vaziri & Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff & Rock Riddle Larry Hennig beat Boris Breznikoff Baron Von Raschke beat Scotty Campbell Geoff Portz beat Yugo Babich att: 5,276 Twin Cities Christmas show does decent with the Flyers in a bizarre six-man semi-main behind a main that looks like it would have drawn more on paper. 12/29/74 Milwaukee, WI @ Auditorium The Crusher beat Boris Breznikoff in 12:20 Superstar Billy Graham beat Baron Von Raschke dq Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell beat Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff Pepper Gomez drew Dale Lewis Sailor Art Thomas beat Big K Paul Perschmann drew Caesar Pablon att: 6,112 sellout 12/30/74 Fargo, ND @ Civic Auditorium Nick Bockwinkel beat Larry Hennig dq Larry Heiniemi & Buddy Wolff beat Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell Big K beat George Gadaski Bob Remus beat Kenny Jay They circle back to Heiniemi/Wolf who they had worked some earlier in the year. 74 is a kind of test year for The High Flyers as they introduce them to the promotion, put them in there with some top guys, some mid-card guys and some undercard guys. They get a few main events and flirt with the top of the card at times, but are more accurately solid mid-carders for the bulk of the year. Total number of main events = 7. Total number of major market main events = 3. I’ll try and keep track of that and some other rough stats going forward though it is deceptive as at times you can easily argue The Flyers working second from the top was the draw and other times working on top were splitting the weight with a match beneath them.

In many ways yes, but I still think Patera is an easier sell because he doesn't have the stigma of nepotism hovering around him the way any and all things Greg does. I'll be posting details on 74 tonight. Maybe 75 too.

Prime Tully might be better than prime Steamboat or Savage...maybe. But Tully's prime was shorter. Hell his whole career was dramatically shorter. If pressed right this second I'd go.... 1. Savage 2. Steamboat 3. Tully But I could see an argument for almost any arrangement of those three.

I'll get into this more later if I have the time, but Murdoch is one of those guys who was upper mid-carder/main eventer for the majority of his career in a variety of territories on top of being a great worker.

Hennig's AWA stuff is out of this World go. So is his Portland stuff. 1. Hennig 2. Dibiase 3. Rude 1. Funk 2. Lawler 3. Flair 1. Hansen 2. Williams 3. Gordy Second group is tough as all of those guys would be in my top ten and I could see them all in a top five. Third group is tough too. It's possible if I went back and watched more of Gordy in Japan he would leap over Williams

Pedro had value to the promotion as IC Champion. His feud with Patera drew. In fact when Backlund was in Japan they actually got an MSG main event. Even with relatively weak undercard support (IIRC) they drew almost 20k.

For the record I think Tanahashi is pretty terrible more often than not, but that's not why I wouldn't vote for him.

It's an impressive run in MSG for sure. But it's almost like the 70s equivalent of Crow Sting being the hottest star in the business. The criticism of Morales was he always drew well in New York, but not in the other WWWF markets. I think I'd want to see at least some success in other territories as well. Miguel Perez Sr. had an equally as strong and longer record of drawing at MSG as Antonino Rocca's tag partner. Same could be said about JYD in Louisiana. I think it's pretty obvious there is a difference between drawing as the tag partner of an over act and being the over act. Crow Sting is a poor comparison, because Crow Sting didn't really wrestle and he was programmed against the top heel act in the U.S. in a decade or longer. Pedro's most lasting feud was with Stan Stasiak. Morales was a star to one degree or another in LA. I'd be interested to see what his cards/matches were. But I'd vote for him with 71-73 as the strength and the things around it as the meat that fattens up the candidacy. JYD should clearly be in as far as I'm concerned.

I think the best justification for Han is that he was the best worker of his style. If I had a ballot and Hamada wasn't on the ballot I'd also vote for him because I'm not convinced any of the other Japanese candidates should get in and that eats off some of their percentage. FWIW Han was the top gajin in RINGS though I don't think he was ever really there top star. Yohe has a post on Classics with every RINGS card and IIRC the majority of them have attendance figures, though I don't think that really helps or hurts Han much other than showing that he was presented as a star which is something we already know. I am personally torn on all the tag teams on the ballot other than the RnR's who I think should be in because they are a rare tag team that fits all three criteria - great in the ring, good draws, big influence. I am honestly not sure there is a better in ring tag team in U.S history than the RnR's the more I think about it and I also tend to give them points for drawing in SMW during a period where wrestling was down (not that they were HoF level draws there, but you could make a case they were the most successful faces in America at that point). I tend to think Schmidt is about as "no brainer" as anyone currently on the ballot. Surprised KrisZ didn't vote for him.

Neither here nor there, but I don't think Dave feels this way at all. We had a long discussion about it once at a UFC event and I think Cornette's role as a WWE booker would make him an even better candidate in Dave's mind. Not sure who to vote for. Want to think about it a little more before I turn it in. Anybody in particular you are on the fence about?

On Pedro, Yohe posted this at Classics and I tend to agree with him: 2-8-71-Ivan Koloff--well Koloff was major but he drew 21,812 & $86,885 3-15-71--Blackjack Mulligan 21,000 $88,865-I never thought of Mulligan as a good performer or a major draw. 5-24-71--Tarzan Tyler 6-21-71--Luke Graham--Terrible worker & had been in the area many times 7-24-71--& Monsson vs Graham & Tyler--21,912--A $103,458 gate for a tag match. 8-30-71-Stan Stasiak--16,720 $70,684 I always thought Stan sucked. Not major for sure. 10-25-71-Stan Stasiak--22,070 $104,456 WOW 11-15-71--Fred Blassie 22,000 Well Fred was major..but old..well guess Fred was born old. 12-6-71--Fred Blassie 1-31-72--Prof Tanaka 22,076--Tanaka was a good main eventer 2-21-72--Prof Tanaka 22,090 3-13-72--Baron Scicluna--Scicluna I never saw but I think he was a OK or good worker but not a star outside of the WWF 4-17-72--Curtis Iaukea--15,549--Iaukea could talk & was a brawler type--I've seen him look really bad in matches. As a worker I don't see him. 5-22-72--Pampero Firpo--19,367--Firpo wasn't a major star. Was this the largest crowd of his career. 7-1-72--George Steele-19,512-Maybe Steele was over in NYC but... 7-29-72-The Spoiler--Without his mask, Don Jardine was a mid-card worker in LA. I know he has his fans. 9-2-72--Ernie Ladd-21,819 $101,000 Can't complain about Ernie. 9-30-72--Bruno Sammartino-22,508 $140,923--Pedro goes against the most popular wrestler in NY history & has to wrestle a clean match in a town that never sees face vs face matches. It lasts 1:15:00. Try that. Good luck. 10-16-72 & Sammartino vs Tanaka & mr Fuji Sorry but Fuji is terrible. 11-27-72-Ray Stevens-18,183 Well OK. 12-18-72-Ray Stevens 22,906 1-15-73--Moondog Mayne 22,000 I saw his interview & brawling but have no idea how good he was. Don't know if he was much on selling for Pedro. Guess I can't complain. 4-30-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,000 6-4-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,146 6-30-73--George Steele--21,987 Only in NY. 8-27-73--Stan Stasiak--18,666--Again. 10-15-73--Stan Stasiak-22,102-the 4th time 11-12-73--Larry Hennig-16,148--Hennig was a stiff. From want I saw, hard to get a great match out of him. But I didn't live in Minneapolis. Loses title to none other than Stan Stasiak. Will Stan even make the WON ballot? So point is: Pedro drew tons against guys who couldn't work or were freak types. To a serious fan, it doesn't make him look good, outside of the Stevens, Ladd, Blassie, & Jonathan matches. When Billy Graham became heel champion he got Bruno, Rhodes (twice), Mil Mascaras (twice), Peter Maivia, and Backlund in a town hunger for a cool heel champion. All great draws & most HOF'ers. It makes a difference who your in with. Now I would disagree with some of Steve's views on guys on that list, but in general I don't think that is an outstanding slate of challengers, though it is an outstanding run of drawing.

What is the argument for Tanahashi going in now?

Yeah I want to do one for Valentine too and I've got another side project I'm working on, but with the AWA Set out and people enjoying their matches, I really want to do a big results thread for them. It may be slower moving than the Blackwell/Patera stuff, but they are certainly a team that deserves more credit. Before I get to the results stuff I'll note two things that I found interesting about the Flyers. The first is that they actually won a PWI tag team of the year award in 1982 and finished in the top four three other times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Wrestling...eam_of_the_Year I know people will scoff at this, but it's important to remember that PWI - particularly during that period - was a very good indicator of star power in the wrestling business. It's also worth noting that the AWA was NOT a territory that PWI showered with coverage, particularly in comparison to the East Coast promotions. The other thing I found interesting was this quote from James Melby via Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson's book The Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame: The Tag Teams: "The High Flyers, when I worked in the wrestling business, were the best tag team in wrestling. In their era nobody compares." In and of itself that may not mean much and it is possible he was just being kind for some reason. But it is worth noting that Melby is widely regarded as one of the two or three best wrestling historians who ever lived. It doesn't seem likely that Melby would flippantly give them that degree of praise and that degree of praise from him suggests that my touting of them as one of the more underrated/most successful tag teams of all time isn't reaching on my part.

I think KrisZ voted for him last year and I would love to see a stronger case presented for him by Kris if he has the time. He's one of the guys I think clearly belongs on the ballot, but I don't know that anyone has really tried to piece together an obvious case for him

I don't think I would vote for Breaks or anyone from Europe for a variety of reasons. But I am high on Breaks. When I was watching a lot of WoS he consistently stood out as one of the better/unique guys there, who was excellent at building heat. Not only do I think he was a great worker, but he seemed to consistently have a title from 62/63 forward. When I was looking through title histories last year he had a good bit more than Saint IIRC. Since the working theory/position being pushed by many Brits seems to be "those who held the titles the most were positioned as the top stars," it seems fairly safe to say he was one of the biggest names in Brit wrestling for his run. Having said I really don't know enough to vote for him.

No way in hell I would vote for Albano before Jimmy Hart gets in. Hell Hart can't even get on the ballot. That's not a knock on Albano. I'm an agnostic on him as an individual candidate. The stuff tomk and others put together on Classics is enough to build a case, but I actually think what it really shows is that his historic role is overstated by Meltzer. I've seen a fair amount of WWF tv and arena footage from the period where he was hot and would give him some points for crossover effect. But I would prefer The Three Wisemen go in as a group and I certainly can't see a case for Albano over Hart.

And......guys I would vote for if I had a ballot: Historical Candidates Hans Schmidt Kinji Shibuya Enrique Torres I've done a lot of reading, looking at results, studying title histories, et from guys who fall in this category at this point. I can see interesting cases for a lot of them, but I feel the best two candidates are pretty easily Schmidt and Torres. There is a thread at Classics that covers a lot of the reasons why based on studies of what each guy did during their prime, but I would also note that both guys had solid post-prime and pre-prime value as well. The Torres brothers were an extremely hot tag team in Georgia and elsewhere and that is almost an after thought on Enrique's resume. The same with Schmidt's run with the Montreal version of the World title. The point is these guys had pretty strong careers across the board, with HoF level peaks. Schmidt in particular has some huge gates/attendance figures to his name and Torres appears to have been almost as hot in St. Louis as he was in LA. Schmidt is an easier pick than Torres, but I think both are fairly easy picks. Shibuya is more controversial because he was primarily known as a tag specialist. Still he was a tag specialist who was booked on top more often than not with multiple partners, across multiple territories. I was shocked to see how big a star he was in the Midwest. I'm not sure if he was the first Japanese heel of note (almost definitely not I would guess), but he appears to have been a prototype for what they gimmick would become and he drew everywhere he went. Of the people I would vote for he's the one I am least sure of, but I would advocate voting for him anyhow as I don't want him to fall off the ballot without a closer look. Modern Performers Pedro Morales John Cena Ivan Koloff Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) Buddy Rose Most of my views on these guys have been fleshed out to an absurd degree already. I have been a bit unsure of Morales in the past but when you look at how successful his reign was for Vince, how over he was, et. it really feels wrong for him to be out. Japan Gran Hamada Random Island Category Carlos Colon I'm not really up on the Australia stuff, but I think this is a silly category and I think it's silly Colon isn't already in. It's arguable he's the biggest draw not already in. Non-performers Don Owen Bill Apter Jerry Jarrett I don't feel qualified to vote on the other categories, though there are at least two or three Lucha candidates that seem like they really should be in and I would be tempted to vote for Breaks from Europe

via Steve Yohe at WC. The 2012 ballot is out: I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Gene & Ole Anderson The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) Red Bastien June Byers Pepper Gomez Dick Hutton Hans Schmidt Kinji Shibuya Wilbur Snyder Chief Jay Strongbow John Tolos Enrique Torres Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Batista John Cena Edge Jeff Hardy Owen Hart Curt Hennig Kane Ivan Koloff Brock Lesnar Fabulous Moolah Pedro Morales Dick Murdoch Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) Buddy Rose Sgt. Slaughter Jimmy Snuka Sting Mr. Wrestling II I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES George Gordienko Gran Hamada Volk Han Masahiko Kimura Seiji Sakaguchi Kensuke Sasaki Mike & Ben Sharpe Kiyoshi Tamura Hiroshi Tanahashi I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Perro Aguayo Jr. Atlantis Cien Caras Karloff Lagarde Blue Panther L.A. Park Huracan Ramirez Vampiro Villano III Dr. Wagner Jr. Dr. Wagner Sr. I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES Jim Breaks Big Daddy Horst Hoffman Marty Jones Billy Joyce Mick McManus Kendo Nagasaki Jackie Pallo Rollerball Mark Rocco Johnny Saint I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES Spyros Arion Johnny Barend Carlos Colon Domenic DeNucci Killer Karl Kox Mark Lewin Mario Milano NON-WRESTLERS Lou Albano Bill Apter Jim Crockett Jr. Gary Hart Jerry Jarrett Gorilla Monsoon Dr. Alfonso Morales Don Owen Jesse Ventura

I would vote for HHH. Dave deserves to have a ballot. He does actual research on wrestling that involves going to a library and pouring through microfilm. He regularly contributes to the Observer site. He has helped Dave with little things behind the scenes. He takes the issue seriously, researches the candidates on their own and takes seriously the findings of others. He personally is more liberal with the criteria than I am and there are people on his ballot that would not be on mine (though we agree on the great majority of candidates). But Musgrave is certainly deserving - and I would argue MORE deserving - than a shit ton of people who already had ballots. Whether or not I deserve a ballot is largely irrelevant to me. Dave is right - I'm not connected to the Observer community at all. I've never been a subscriber (though this is sort of deceptive because I "split" cost on multiple newsletters from 95-01/02 and the Observer was one of them though it wasn't in my name). I've emailed Meltzer a handful of times, argued with him once or twice on Wrestling Classics under a screen name that is totally different from my handle everywhere else, and called into the old eyada show a couple of times. It would be very unlikely that Meltzer even knows who I am and to be honest if he does know who I am I suspect he thinks I'm a douche because I have a tendency to be very critical of things that have appeared on his site, people that have gone into the HoF, et. The funny thing is that I generally think Dave has done a great job over the years and still prefer him to any of the other major wrestling journalist by a wide margin but that's neither here nor there. There are times I think about subscribing to the Observer, but two things keep me away - the constant MMA criticisms other fans make (for the record I think Dave should cover whatever the fuck he wants to) and the fact that I don't want Bryan Alvarez getting a penny of my money and his finances are directly tied to Dave. The first I could probably put aside. The second? Eh Would I participate if I had a ballot? Yes. Would I take it more seriously than most voters in terms of research, thinking things through, et? Probably so. Would it be nice to have a ballot? Of course. Do I lose sleep over it? Not really. On some level it's more fun researching the "forgotten" guys anyhow

Meant to cross post this here from the WC thread but Dave and I did our HoF show with Kurt Brown the other day: Episode 26 of the Wrestling Culture Podcast is an Observer HoF discussion and includes lengthy Lucha talk, lots of love for wrestling magazines of old, me going on and on and on about Buddy Rose and our guest Vandal Drummond (Kurt Brown) adding great personal stories to it, Dave Musgrave putting over The Sharpe Brothers, and a whole ton of other awesomeness. Great show. http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc