Dylan Waco

I've never seen Funk dog it. I don't doubt that he may have, but I've never seen it. And on the subject of Goldberg v. Graham, honestly as an in ring wrestler I have no clue how anyone could make the case for Graham even if they loathed Berg. The only watchable Graham matches I've ever seen were v. Dusty and they were watchable for reasons that had little to do with in ring action.

Carrying ability is another quality that is massively overrated. The smark habit of settling arguments about who is better by saying such and such "carried" a shittier wrestler than someone so he's better is one of the most meaningless talking points around.

The 57talk.com interviews with Ivan Koloff, Gene Ligon and Johnny Powers have some interesting stuff about the IWA.

Eighteen months maybe?

I think Dave has an underlying problem with reality at times.

I seem to remember a really good ten man elimination tag from that era...eh I just need to look around.

Believe that was the AWF. If memory serves Virgil was a ref for them at one point and Tito was their most heavily pushed star. I'd be interested to see Bix take on Einhorn's IWA, but that might be a tall order.

Bix that was a great read. As someone who has childhood memories of all of that unfolding it really fills in the gaps in my memory on specifics and also gives me some kayfabe busting background on certain things that I was viewing through the prism of ESPN afternoons, oddball syndication and the Apter Mags. I especially appreciate how you focused some on the better feuds and angles that were going on at the time. A few questions: You said 3,000 people were in the Sportotorium for the final WCCW show with Hickerson v. Embry. I know that is the generally accepted capacity of the venue (though I've heard Bill Irwin and Marc Lowrance claim figures as high as 4300), but from memory I don't recall it being a packed house - certainly not packed to the same degree of what you would see during the height of WCCW. Is that an official figure, conjecture, hyperbolic device, guess work? Just curious. Also on the scale of attendance, you mention that the company wasn't doing good business because of the failure of live shows and the ticket prices. But you also said business was surprisingly strong at times. I know some of the shows were notoriously cheap dates, but I'm curious as to if you have any attendance figures, what towns they were running regularly on the Texas circuit, and what the best feuds for business were. By comparison were they a hotter "territory" than Memphis at the time? Were they hotter than SMW would be a few years later? I really have little recollection of any of this. Somewhat unrelated, but how much of this is widely circulated in tape trader communities? I remember the Adams/Austin feud being an Apter Mag favorite, and seeing some of it at the time, but I don't remember ever seeing any of that heavily pimped via the trader network. As someone who didn't start reading the sheets until 94ish, there is a gap of time from the end of the the territories to the rise of ECW where I'm sort of at a loss as to what non-big two U.S. matches were being heavily touted within that community. Can you fill in the blanks on that?

I'm reading the article now, but just so you know, you double linked the WXO piece in your post.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for Goldy as an HoF guy. I'm also not really arguing for him over Graham per se. My point is more or less that Goldy is a better candidate than he's given credit for and is probably in the conversation with certain guys that are in. He's certainly better than many of the names on the ballot. Another guy you could say this of would be Taue but he's been on and dropped off several times already if memory serves.

Goldberg is a better candidate than a lot of people who are in. I'm not entirely sure he's not a better candidate then Billy Graham in some ways. Well Goldberg didn't have an embarrassing downside of his career where he stopped working out and pretended to be a Karate guy, so I see where you're coming from. Well that's part of it. Another aspect of it is the fact that Goldberg was at minimum equal as a draw based on what I know, was to a degree a crossover star and is to this day one of the most well known wrestlers among casuals and non-fans. I believe he was influential in a weird way, though not in the same way that Graham was. But Graham has the steroid issue as well which is a negative influence of epic proportions. He was a much better worker than Graham FWIW, though Graham was obviously far better on the mic.

Goldberg is a better candidate than a lot of people who are in. I'm not entirely sure he's not a better candidate then Billy Graham in some ways.

Ever since the reports that he wanted time off hit I've had a bet with a friend that he wanted time off so he could go get fucked up without technically getting a "third strike." Not sure this is what he had in mind, but still.

From what I know, have read and have seen McManus and Nagasaki are probably better overall picks than Daddy, but Daddy feels like a "must" pick for the Brit scene by virtue of the fact that he was a transcendent star on a level no one else was. That might be an oddball way of putting things but that's just how it seems on the surface. Then again I"m not a Brit so..' Also I'd probably vote for George Kidd and Jim Breaks as well. It'll never happen but it'd be interesting to see Meltzer do the group idea Bix and jdw have advocated for. It would also be interested to see Buddy Rose and Bill Dundee pop on the ballot now (though I'm not advocating for either guy).

Based on what Kenny McBride and others have said I think Rocco is at worst a decent candidate. Personally I'd vote for Big Daddy, McManus and possibly Nagasaki over him, but after that I don't think any other Brit is demonstrably better as a candidate.

What Brits should go in over Rocco? Should any Brits go in?

Sano or Ultimo Dragon ? Sano's peak as a junior is better, though I like Ultimo more than most. I've seen some of Sano's shootstyle stuff and recall thinking it was good. IIRC he even had a solid match on that terrible Rikidozan memorial back in the early part of the decade. But the real reason I'd rate him over Dragon was that he was better than Dragon as a junior. Tom Zenk or Scotty Riggs ? I couldn't care less about either guy. I think Zenk is probably more disappointing in that he seemed like a guy that might amount to something whereas Riggs never did. If I had to pick I'd still go with Zenk just because he's got a few memorable matches and Riggs really has none. Brad Armstrong or Jim Brunzell ? Brad. I like Brunzell a lot in the High Flyers and the Bee's had a match or two that were strong. But Brad was a consistently quality worker for the entire duration of his in ring career. He made a remarkably easy transition to the heel Badstreet character when called on to do it as well which I can't imagine Brunzell doing. Brad doesn't have very many stand out matches, but that's because he was never given more than ten minutes outside of SMW and earlier in his career. Also Brad had a better dropkick Genichiro Tenryu or Randy Savage ? Tenryu is probably better but I'd rather watch Savage. Savage is a guy that I have grown to really love, as his antics can really make matches. Macho is a great example of a guy who's charisma comes out so much in his bouts that it can make a decent match good and a good match great which is a rare quality. Ted DiBiase or Rick Rude ? Rude. Dibiase has been exposed badly over the years, whereas Rude's stock has shot up with me. I think in particular that 92 Rude is a tremendous wrestler on a level Dibiase never reached.

Jericho is a guy I don't think is close and frankly I don't see how he is any better or worse a candidate than Edge. Better worker and a more compelling act overall, but his feud with Michaels was not successful as a buyrate draw and that is the only real feather in his cap over the last few years. No Mercy with Jericho-HBK in the ladder match did one of the better B-show buyrates of the year. Not saying he should be in, but that is a rare case nowadays of a good feud popping business. The buyrates were down relative to the year before.

My WCCW point was not well made, which is my own fault. My point was not "Rude killed the territory," my point was that Rude was never a guy that was going to pop a territory despite the fact that he had a gimmick and promo capabilities that made him unique and appealing to promoters and a fair portion of the fan base. As to 92, I'm the only guy I know with that opinion. WCW in 92 was so deep with in ring talent, that you could make a case for Rude outside of the top ten just within his own company. Obviously I disagree, but the point is that Rude is not a consensus pick for best in his company in 92, let alone the World. Perhaps more to the point, there are an awful lot of guys who had great single years in the ring, or as a character, or as a promo, but I wouldn't vote for anyone on that alone. So at best Rude's 92 is a small notch in his belt. On the subject of whether or not good promo/storyline/characters should get in, I'm not completely opposed to the notion. Having said that their are two problems with it. The first is that great faces and heels and promo guys by definition are great because they draw money or interest or both. That is the criteria by which they are judged. If it isn't then again it is all subjective and you'll see people making arguments about 06 Edge being one of the "best heels in history" quickly. Fuck they already do. Second problem is I think even if you were going to go the route of "best heels/faces/promos ought to be thought of on the same level as best in ring workers" Rude is not the first guy to go in or even a serious top choice to go in from that category. I think Jake is a far better candidate in that regard actually as he was a better promo, a great heel, a great face, and was maybe the best I've ever seen on storyline delivery. Arn - who I like but I don't think has any business being in - is maybe the best promo of all time, was a better worker for longer than Rude, and was an incredibly great heel. Tully is another that comes to mind, though I suppose you could make the argument his run wasn't long enough. Still the point is there are a lot of guys I would rate behind Rude in that regard and most of them aren't on the ballot (and never will be).

I'm a huge Rude mark and listened to you and Kurt talk about him and even after being shocked by how great he was in 92 WCW (to the point where I think he was a legit candidate for best in the World that year) I really, really, think it's a bad idea to let someone like that in. Rude was a great heel and probably one of the more underrated workers of his era, but he was not only a non-factor as a draw, but arguably someone that was a credibility killer for promotions when he was on top. His run as World Class "World Champ" is consistently cited as a moment when the company was obviously a sinking stone. I loved his WCW run, but I knew many people at the time that thought he was a joke as World Champion level wrestler and from memory the houses were shit at the time. I'm not blaming Rude for these things, but if Hennig gets negative credit for not drawing against Hogan, Rude should get negative credit for things like that. Especially because Hennig is also a guy that is fondly remembered by many and has a household name feel to him. My point is that if you make picks based on "fuzzy feelings" or whatever, the case for guys like Edge suddenly doesn't look like such bullshit because their aren't really any standards at all.

I agree with just about all of this. Cena is going to be make an interesting candidate in a few years, because he does have more crossover appeal and star power than virtually anyone else around today, but even he doesnt' feel like a shoe in despite being the face of the company for the entirety of a very profitable period. Jericho is a guy I don't think is close and frankly I don't see how he is any better or worse a candidate than Edge. Better worker and a more compelling act overall, but his feud with Michaels was not successful as a buyrate draw and that is the only real feather in his cap over the last few years. Does have some broader name value than most outside of the sport I guess, but it's not like he is an A-list star or even a major B-list star. He's had a very solid run as a heel the last couple of years and his series with Mysterio was great, but again these aren't things that get a guy who was off the radar for HoF contention on the radar for HoF contention. I like Jericho a good bit, but honestly I'm not sure that he's a better candidate than Goldberg, and Goldberg is someone that gets laughed at for whatever reason every time his name comes up.

Also what did Edge "carry?" He absolutely was the top heel in the company for a brief period - primarily because of the impact of injuries as I recall - but was there ever a period when he was a clear top draw or even a clear draw at all? In some respects I think his biggest Impact as a draw may have been teaming with Christian opposite the Hardyz and the Dudz though that is ultimately a guess and nothing more. I think you can make the case he was a surprisingly strong worker for a couple of years, but he's a guy who is almost entirely dependent on a quality second for his heat. His matches with Matt Hardy were great, he was a surprisingly strong opponent for Angle in 02, and in 06 he had a career year because the heat he was leeching off of Lita really translated well into the setting he was thrown in (v. Foley, with Foley v. Funk/Dreamer, v. Cena TLC). Other than that it's a lot of hit and miss with mostly misses. I'll give him credit for being a guy who usually works well in gimmick matches, but that's not something that makes him outstanding on its own. Really the fact that someone would criticize Rey's candidacy, while hyping Edge's, is a good sign that the person in question is either clueless or a hopeless mark for Edge. Rey was a much better worker, for much longer, a much bigger influence, has a record as a draw, has a record as a massive merch seller and has a record as a guy that brought an entirely new style and demographic into the World of mainstream U.S. wrestling. I'd say for guys from the 90's/00's that aren't in already there really is no one with a better argument than Rey - Edge isn't even in his universe as a candidate.

Well yeah, I tend to think Dave's opinions are pretty terrible. He is the news guy of course and always will be. But I can't imagine taking anything he says on a persons abilities in the ring or match quality with anything more than a grain of salt.

Dave's arguments for the HoF are usually bizarre.

What category is Colon in?