W2BTD

The 2007 ROH Race to the Top tournament was the Generico coming out party as an elite talent. In typical Zayn fashion, he made a miracle run to the end, before falling to the man who has turned out to be his top career foe, in a final that turned out to be an amazing foreshadow, Claudio Castagnoli. Cesaro/Castagnoli is the Tiger Mask to Zayn's Dynamite, the Flair to his Steamboat, the Tanahashi to his Okada. Some pairings just create special results, and i'm sure they'll have a few more classics when they meet on the main roster. As Shining Wiz alluded to, he can work any style. The Steen feud (the best long term "throwback" style feud in wrestling in ages) is a great example of this. Zayn is one of the best I've ever seen at stringing together matches in a feud or series. Aside from Steen & Cesaro, you have the flat out amazing Kota Ibushi trilogy from DDT in 2012. The match to match storytelling there was incredible, and that despite one man winning all three bouts, which for one was refreshing & unpredictable, and also a little tricky to tell a compelling story when one dude never picks up a win. The Samuray Del Sol matches in DGUSA were another great example of this.

Wouldn't consider him, but to me he was the best Von Erich.

Was one of the best five wrestlers in the world (maybe number one at points) before he ever stepped in a WWE ring, which means if he has any kind of career in the biggest promotion around on the top stage, we're talking about an all timer from a workrate perspective. Elite, top tier level as a sympathy garnering babyface. And to me he's actually lost some of that ability post mask, which tells you how great he was with the mask. Can't imagine him outside my top 25 or so, maybe higher. Top 10 potential by the time his career is over. He's already added a coupe of classics to his resume before leaving NXT.

Jesus, talk about "feeling superior". This might be the most uppity, elitist post I've ever read on here. And believe me, that covers some ground. John Tenta & Mark Henry would have trouble making my Top 1000. But what do I know? I'm a "casual hardcore" who has probably never heard of Jerry Blackwell.

I was going to come in here and say that Hayes was criminally underrated, but everybody seems to agree that he was pretty good. He wouldn't sniff my top 100, but he was way, way better than he ever got credit for, and to me was the best worker of the Freebirds. And that says nothing of his promos, where he absolutely is top 100 material. And while were bashing Jimmy Garvin, i'd like to pile on. One of my least favorite wrestlers of all time. Somebody called him 'putrid'. I agree.

Ty Cobb, Jim Brown, OJ Simpson. A horrible human, an era transcending talent & all time great. Sucks when that happens. The last time I did this I had him at #11, I believe. I love his stuff. He's one of those guys who I just can not take my eyes off of when he's doing his thing. Pre-WWE Rey, Sabu, Dynamite, they all had that quality where I felt like I was watching something very different than great, something unique, something innovative, trend setting, progressive. He's also one of the rare performers whose stuff never looks dated. You could plop 1983 Dynamite on a state of the art PWG card tomorrow and he'd fit right in and get over immediately. Stick him in modern New Japan with the best roster in the world, and he'd look just fine slapping around juniors and stepping up to Shibata.

This is not to slight Atlantis in any way, because he was good in the match, but UG was much better here. I thought he was great.

Great Akiyama piece, Alan. I'm leaning yes on him. This isn't directly tied to Akiyama's case, but I think we all get caught up on placing too much emphasis on the drawing component. It's not the WON HOF of Draws. It has three components of criteria, drawing ability being one of those components. Akiyama is without question a hall of fame level worker. I think he drew enough to supplement that. That's good enough for me.

We’re joined by Fighting Spirit Magazine contributor and British wrestling expert John Lister to talk all about the European candidates on the 2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame ballot. We discuss best picks to enter the Hall this year, who is in danger of dropping off, the always controversial Big Daddy and much more! http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/19/european-candidates-john-lister/

This is really where the rubber meets the road with some of Jacobs stuff, particularly the Whitmer feud. If you like bloody, violent brawls with crazy bumps and crazy weapons, Jacobs is very good at that and I get why you'd think he was great. To me those matches were an annoyance on ROH shows, because that's not what I came to see. And for me, Jacobs "straight" work just couldn't match up to the rest of the top indie stars at the time (or even now, to be fair) to make up the difference. And that's probably why Jacobs took on wacky personas (which is an area where he very much excels above most of his peers) and delved into violence. Even to this day, his Decade stuff is a drag on any show. He was just in the worst match at ROH ASE6 in Toronto. If you are into Memphis or brawls or death matches or Bill Dundee, I suspect Jacobs is right up your alley in terms of modern indie guys. That's his wheelhouse, and he's done some very creative and innovative stuff in those types of matches over the years. And I will concede to being in the minority on the Whitmer feud, because at the time fans ate that shit up.

There was nothing engaging for me about the Team Hell No silliness. If you liked it, fine. As I said, we are miles apart here. I'm very prickly when it comes to comedy in my wrestling, and WWE style comedy almost never hits the mark for me. The Bryan/Kane stuff didn't work for me. I greatly prefer indie era ass kicker Bryan Danielson to bearded circus freak presented as eternal underdog Daniel Bryan. His performances are good enough to overcome it, but his gimmick & the way he is booked is very unappealing to me. The eternal underdog issue is a legit concern. It's what spoiled Mysterio in WWE for me. While I don't think Bryan reached that level of annoyance yet, he seemed on his way before he went out. And while I fins Bryan the most naturally charismatic guy in WWE right now so I can stand watching him in a variety of situations, it is annoying that WWE has a epically, uniquely talented wrestler on their hands and can't figure out to build around him without making him a caricature. They could have broken their mould and tried something new, instead they did the same old thing. Exactly. They've also severely limited him and handcuffed him as a performer by presenting him in that manner. He's always fighting from underneath. He's always fighting the odds. The announcers are always telling you he has no chance. The announcers are always *shocked* when he wins. Enough. It's a bore, and he's way too talented to be pigeonholed into such a restrictive role. I'd love to see him have a series of matches with somebody like Sheamus or Cesaro like he had with Morishima (getting MOTY contenders out of that tubby, useless blob should put you in the Top 25 alone). I'd like to see him in long main events that don't involve long periods of selling while JBL goes on and on about how he has no chance, only for the same mundane miracle comeback and "flying goat" remarks. Watching Bryan in WWE is a lot like watching a great actor do Seasame Street. He's using about one one hundredth of his ability, but having a ton of fun and having the time of his life. But they've really dumbed down and marginalizing a great, great performer who they could be getting so much more out of. There is no doubt in my mind he could get over in other ways, but Vince has his mind made up that he's the underdog geek, so that's what he is. It's too bad so much of his prime has been wasted, and now his career could effectively be over (or at the least, he may never be the same, we just don't know). And despite all of those things I hate about WWE Bryan, he was still the best guy on the roster for most of his time. One thing he proved in WWE, is his ability to do well in any situation, especially with his non wrestling stuff, which many thought would sink him. His big league charisma was a shocker. He connects with the live audience as well as anybody. This sort of veered off topic, but to me Bryan's WWE run has just been frustrating in so many ways, despite how well he's performed.

There was nothing engaging for me about the Team Hell No silliness. If you liked it, fine. As I said, we are miles apart here. I'm very prickly when it comes to comedy in my wrestling, and WWE style comedy almost never hits the mark for me. The Bryan/Kane stuff didn't work for me. I greatly prefer indie era ass kicker Bryan Danielson to bearded circus freak presented as eternal underdog Daniel Bryan. His performances are good enough to overcome it, but his gimmick & the way he is booked is very unappealing to me.

No point even debating this one, as we are miles apart. I have never been less interested in Bryan. He's someone I think might be the best of all time, yet during that period I had no interest in watching anything he was doing. I still have issues with the whole beard thing and how he's presented & booked, but I can usually turn that stuff off in my brain and just enjoy the match (although the commentary makes it hard).

Loved all of his indie stuff. He was a guy who never had a bad match, but rarely had the best match on the card. I can now safely say his best stuff has been in WWE, something I wasn't comfortable saying a year ago. His best indie match was vs El Generico in ROH, which is sort of fitting as his best WWE stuff has been against Zayn. They have unreal chemistry.

That's how the company he works for wants babyfaces to structure their hot tags & closing stretches. Bryan altered his style tremendously with WWE, and while he's obviously been very good in that environment, his best & most interesting stuff was from 2006-2009 when he had the freedom to work as he pleased. I feel like so much of his prime was wasted in that shitty comedy tag team with Kane. And I still don't think he's ever had a WWE run where he truly had a chance to work a varied style with more creative license. He's a happy go lucky guy who goes to work and does what he's told. He notoriously never speaks up to shitty booking, so he doesn't strike me as a guy who is going to approach Trips or Vince or an agent or Randy Orton to suggest trying something outside the box (Orton would have a heart attack anyway, based on his performances under any circumstance where things fall apart or fans don't react properly). And he may never get that chance now anyway. The bottom line is this. He was probably the best wrestler on Earth for three to five years before he came to WWE (maybe longer). He never reached those heights in WWE, but being the best worker in that company was still a tremendous achievement. He'd be a contender for #1 on my list. He'd be a lock if I liked his WWE stuff better, or if his career defining match at Mania wasn't an overbooked piece of shit.

Dave Meltzer loves Edge, and overrates everything he's ever done. It's just one of those things. He really likes the guy. We all have guys like that who we like better than most other people. His is Edge.

I can't even remember these matches. That probably tells you what I think of them.

It looks like all three TV wins served some sort of purpose. The first squash was the establish them as above the level of your run of the mill jobber team, probably because some other heel either team left or broke up (The Islanders?), and to that point they had never won a match and were presented as straight jobbers. The second win was just to set up the Terry Taylor angle and establish him as a heel. The third, as Bigelow34 noted, looks pretty clearly to be a set up to give them some cred going into Survivor Series.

Those random house show wins over the higher ranked teams are just something WWF would do every now & then. The two Rockers wins for example came during a stretch where the teams were paired together from about August to November, until the programs were changed after Survivor Series. The Rockers won almost 40 matches in that stretch to the Conquistadors two. The Conquistadors were paired with the Young Stallions after SS, and were gone by April 1989. The Rockers moved into a feud with the Brain Busters, after the hot angle during the SS match.

Not trying to derail things, but I'm so glad you made that Daniels point. He's so smooth and fluid, that it's a negative. He's actually too good. I would love to take credit for this, but I can't because it wasn't my thought, but somebody once told me that they thought Daniels best gimmick would be a wrestling robot. I thought that was pretty brilliant.

Gordy is overrated, Hayes is very, very underrated.

Love this guy in Japan, pretty much despise him in the U.S., particularly in WCW. When you see how well other mediocre dudes like Johnny Ace, Spivey, etc (I'll be nice to Gordy and leave him out of this) did in All Japan, it makes you wonder if it was just a matter of working in a hot place with great booking & match structures with some of the greatest workers of all time.

The Desmond Wolfe stuff in TNA, including the angles, are hidden gems. I love Angle, and love the way he works. I don't remember if it was here or someplace else, so if i'm repeating myself i'm sorry, but his pace & style is exactly what I want out of his character. He's the high school bully jock who never knows when to turn it off, and spikes volleyballs into girls faces in gym class. He's the guy who makes everybody uneasy because you never know when he's going to randomly body check you into a locker or punch you in arm for no good reason. When I watch an Angle match, I want non stop action, I want people to get thrown on their heads, I want intensity, I want him to pull down his straps and scream like a lunatic, I want him to outwork whoever gets in his way, I want him to go go go go like a god damn machine. And that's exactly what he does. If I want to see somebody sell, i'll watch Whipwreck. If I want to watch somebody grapple, I'll watch Regal. I want Angle to be the bully jock and fucking kill people. He's top ten material in my book.

This is a guy whose stock has plummeted with me thanks to The Network. I've rewatched a lot of 1988, 1989 WCW, and Rotunda is a guy who always kills the card dead. I remember really liking The Varsity Club at the time, but 25 years later I hate almost everything I've seen from the entire group.

They went 8-90 as a team, with all 8 wins coming on house shows or dark matches at TV. All of the house show wins were on small spot shows. None of the big city house shows like MSG, Spectrum, Boston Gardens, etc that sometimes aired on local TV, except for this one from Maple Leaf Gardens, 1/10/88: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=44003 Does anybody know if that show aired? If not, and if none of the dark matches were taped or house show matches were bootlegged, then there is likely no video evidence of a Conquistador victory.