W2BTD

The great Alan Counihan (host of DKP on WrestlingObserver.com and Fighting Spirit Magazine contributor) joins the show to breakdown the Japan region of the 2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. We discuss the candidacy’s of Akira Taue, Jun Akiyama among others, predict inclusions, who will fall off and discuss some additions to make in the coming years. http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/10/01/japan-candidates-alan-counihan/

I just laugh & laugh at the idea of paying to use that worthless name on your shows, but then again, I used to laugh at promoters who paid to use the NWA name until I found out how shockingly low the fee was. Like, insignificantly low. The part of the deal that puts you on the hook with the NWA, is that you are required to book the world title twice per year, and the other titles (National, North American, Junior, Tag, Women's) once each (I think there is a penalty for not meeting this requirement). That's why the new regime put an emphasis on champions who are able to travel, and also why the workers are motivated to move up and get booked to win titles, because obviously it means more bookings in places where they would not normally ever be booked. Look at a guy like Chase Owens. I'm not sure he ever gets booked in Texas like he did in 2013 if not for that set up (and Kinkaid got to come with him as his opponent). And it's a great deal for Rob Conway or whoever holds the World title, because you are locked in to tons of bookings everywhere.

Which finish? Benadryller? Have you seen his Dream Gate match from this year vs YAMATO? Not a Dragon Gate style match at all aside from some minor interference, and a totally different style of match from the usual Ricochet bout. Yeah the Benadryller. I guess I don't mind the move itself so much as the ridiculousness of building stretch runs around the struggle to get a guy up in the fireman's carry, just so he can set them back on their feet and kick them in the head. Just kick them in the fucking head! Was the YAMATO match the one built around Ricochet getting his leg worked over? That's one of the few Dragon Gate matches I've seen. I remember enjoying it, will have to give it another look. Yup, that's the match. YAMATO uses a foreign object (I believe a wrench, of all things) while wrenching (no pun intended) in a half crab early in the match, and then spends the rest of the bout working over that knee. I thought it was a great performance by both guys, but Ricochet really stood out as he rarely gets the chance to work that way because when he gets booked in America, obviously indie promoters are booking him to be Ricochet and fly around.

There was one match he had with Cesaro in Chikara that was really good, with Cesaro being a perfect base for all of Ricochet's aerial offense. It's really not relevant, but I will add that he looks so much better now than he did in his early days when he had the long hair. I actually do think that last point is relevant, because long hair/backyard gear Ricochet looked so bad, that I believe it really did take away from his matches. Ricochet cleaned up his look right around the same time that he broke out as a worker. Partly coincidence, but I can't help but think the light bulb went on at some point when he decided to take this shit a little more seriously.

Don't forget the tiny midwest indies that pay for the right to use the red hot ZERO1 name!

Which finish? Benadryller? Have you seen his Dream Gate match from this year vs YAMATO? Not a Dragon Gate style match at all aside from some minor interference, and a totally different style of match from the usual Ricochet bout.

A lot of the guys being talked about in this thread are 15-20 year pros. We aren't talking about green indie guys working tiny shows just getting started. What makes somebody like Jim Breaks (since he was the example) any more of a legitimate candidate for something like this than Quack or Aries or Joe? Nothing. Most of these guys are seasoned pro wrestlers, some on the back end of their primes at this point, with long resumes of great matches. Just not on TV. Hey, nobody can watch everything. Everyone has blind spots. I don't really care what any of you guys choose to watch or not watch, but to handwave an entire subset of workers and just assume they aren't worthy seems closed minded to me. The "they won't stack up to Thesz" argument is one I can't buy, not when I see some of the names from the past that have been nominated that I can easily make the same argument for, and the fact that this isn't a top ten.

This idea that New Japan features constant finisher kick outs is misguided, I think. The Rainmaker has never been kicked out of, neither has the Gotch Piledriver, and I can't remember the last High Fly Flow or Stardust Press or King Kong Knee Drop or Phoenix Splash that has been kicked out of. Variations of the HFF (standing, to the back, etc) get kicked out of, the Boma Ye's from odd angles get kicked out of, big bombs get kicked out of, but in terms of protecting finishers, I would argue NJPW does a MUCH better job than WWE, TNA, Dragon Gate, ROH, and everyplace else I watch regularly (can't speak for lucha).

When I see stuff like Booker, Sullivan, & Jarrett ahead of people like Kanemoto & Los Misioneros...on top of that RVD at the top of another one this post has been enough to ruin my day. Pretty much gotta agree with everything said about Moolah. I feel like the only reason she's even on this ballot is because of THOSE kinda guys who got mesmerized by her being portrayed as a great legend on TV and maybe also because of holding a near meaningless title that she controlled for like 30 years. If Benoit gets on I don't see much of an argument against Invader. Benoit was on the ballot and voted in before his murders. And then there was a recall vote, and he was voted to stay in. Had Benoit killed his family before he was ever on the ballot, I am almost positive he would have never appeared on it.

Keep in mind that those are front page polls. When you consider how bad the message board is on that site, and those people pay to presumably read the newsletter, imagine how awful the grasp of history must be with the front page visitors who don't. Essentially, those are polls of who is the most famous.

Dylan unearthed some common ground between us at the end of the Historical show that hasn't been released yet. I won't spoil it.

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/29/modern-uscanada-candidates-dylan-hales/

Strongbow would have to be in the conversation as possibly the worst "major league" wrestler of all time. I'm not going to repeat Parv's points, but they're all spot on. I think he's memorable and comes up a lot because he had a memorable name and was a star when the people who bring him up were kids. Non fans don't bring up Tony Garea, they talk about Chief Jay Strongbow & Killer Kowalski because they had cool names.

I have no idea what Meltzer is thinking giving this match 5-stars. I had it at 4, so the same neighborhood as you. And like you, I thought the G1 match was pretty incredible and blew this match out of the water. Tanahashi has largely stopped with the 30 minute epics because he's taken on a secondary role this year, and has closed fewer shows than usual. He's a guy who understands & respects wrestling and wrestling history, so while he could probably get away with doing whatever the fuck he wants in his role as the ace-transitioning-to-legend, he works his spot on the card. Also, yes, he's badly badly hurting too. I think being out of the title picture for the first nine months of the year has allowed Tanahashi to have his most varied & eclectic in ring year possibly to date. While everybdy is paying attention to Bullet Club, he's having matches with Nak that all feel different, wars with Shibata, playing subtle heel vs guys like Honma & Ishii to give the fans the wink wink "ok" to go nuts for those guys, etc. Tanahashi is way smarter as a worker than people give him credit for. And I think he's kinda sorta maybe changed some opinions with people who thought he was trash previously. Dylan is probably still no fan of his, but i've seen him praise more of Tanahashi's stuff this year than he has in 2011-2013 combined.

There is a good chance i'd have guys in my Top 10 who wouldn't even place in the overall Top 100. That isn't what will stop me from sending a list. What will likely prevent me from sending a list is that I am way too indecisive and would never be happy with my list. I would change my mind every day, and change my mind thirty seconds after I hit 'submit'. My mind just isn't wired properly for something like this. Aside from trying to rank guys, which is a daunting task in itself, there is the issue of forgetting guys, wanting to rank guys who aren't nominated, and what I think is the most impossible task of all, and the thing that I don't really understand how you guys are able to do it, which is comparing guys from different eras or vastly different styles (or both). How on Earth can I determine who was better between Masato Yoshino and Barry Windham or Curt Hennig or Pat O'Connor? Yoshino works under a completely different set of rules in terms of psychology, and to me is trying to accomplish something completely different in his matches than somebody who works shoot style or who peaked in a southern territory in 1981, to the point I find it ridiculous to even compare. At the end of the day, it just comes down to style bias, because direct comparisons will never work. All layers of wrestling psychology are context dependent. There is no "right way" to work a match, there is no one set definition of "meaningful selling", for instance. Dragon Gate psychology might as well be a different art form all together than Continental or Chikara or RINGS. The participants are working under vastly different parameters. The only way to properly approach this imo to compare Masato Yoshino to say, Bill Dundee, is to comapre to their direct peers, not each other, and determine who is better in relation to others who work the same style. Because there is no way in hell you can definitively say which of those guys are "better". You're just going to choose the one who works the style you prefer. And you can't be blamed for that.

Like every belt in that company, Attitude Era. It's not so much who holds titles as much as how they are treated & positioned.

I don't want to turn this into the VOW thread, but I think we preface every Dragon Gate discussion with "we understand its not everyone's cup of tea..." to the point km getting tired of saying it lol. I've defended the style, but I don't recall calling people idiots if they don't like it. I think we bend over backwards to say we understand why people don't.

Who am I calling a liar & an idiot on every show? Genuine question. I am outspoken and probably not for everyone, but I believe I am fair. I called Pat Buck a liar. Privately he admitted he was lying. And they lied again last weekend, claiming a rise in attendance despite less seats available in the same building. Neat trick if they pulled that off. I sort of called Gabe Sapolsky a liar, but not really, as I framed it more as he probably had a bad memory, as I don't think he was purposely lying. Who else? If I called someone else a liar, its probably because they lied. Like Leslie when he deleted his "bitch move" tweet and then denied saying it. I probably throw around the term "idiot", but that's my style and people who listen likely understand my tone. I can't think of anybody else.

btw, I'm getting to this. Haven't had time. Not blowing you off.

The most unique category of the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame is the Australia/Pacific Islands/Caribbean/Africa region and who better to break it down than wrestling historian Matt Farmer. We discuss the oddities of the region, the status of Carlos Colon, reasons why he hasn’t gone in already, difference between Australian and New Zealand candidates and much more! http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/26/australiapacific-islandscaribbeanafrica-matt-farmer/

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ... Greg Valentine Tito Santana Terry Gordy Jim Brunzell Ron Garvin Paul Orndorff Ken Patera Dennis Condrey Manny Fernandez Adrian Adonis Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching. This is going to end up being pointless, though, because of course if you're combing the territories, with more than 20 years of perspective, you're going to find more good workers. The other side is handicapped by the fact a lot of indie stars are still establishing what they are and how good they might be. Again, I'm not so much interested in arguing that the modern indies are as fertile as the territories. I just think it's wrong to imply they're infertile or not producing a good cross-section of workers. Sure, I have no beef with that and accept that they aren't totally infertile. But this line of argument started with Joe making a much more grandiose claim about there being more exceptional workers now than 20, 30, 40 years ago. This is demonstrably untrue and it's all I wanted to show. I'll admit that the way I put it might have been a bit bigoted, but Joe seems to rile me up more than most. In a bit I have a slightly different avenue to explore for this thread, but need to get back home to make the post. The "give me a guy who compares to these guys" thing just isn't going to work. For starters, I think about half of those guys aren't particularly good. That's just going to annoy you right from the jump. Bell to bell, I'd take nearly the entire ROH roster over half of those names. I understand that likely sounds mental to you, but much of that list is instant FF material for me when I watch tapes. I think the WWE roster is miles (MILES) better than it ever has been, right now this second. The current New Japan roster is one of the greatest rosters of all time, particularly at the top. You don't get the garbage filler on a major league show these days like you often got on shows 30 years ago, because the standards are higher. WWE will not even employ a Chief Jay Strongbow or Dominic DeNucci today, let alone push one beyond maybe a comedy or grandfathered role at best. You mentioned Pez Whately earlier. He couldnt get past TV jobber in WWF in the 80's, how do you think he's fare in 2014 on such a stacked roster? Sami Zayn is top five on Earth and cant get on TV. Sami Callihan cant get on developmental TV! If you put Pez f'n Whatley in a time machine, he wouldn't get booked on a decent indie today. Brother, you like old wrestling, and you think all of those guys are fantastic. Great. You like what you like, you are entitled to your opinions, and that's cool. But I can't you seriously in this discussion when you readily admit you don't watch modern wrestling or go to indie shows. There are indie wrestlers who would blow your mind, man. And not even the same guys I like. Trust me. There is no shortage of talent in wrestling. There is a shortage of fans. There is a shortage of full time jobs.

There are differences for sure, and both have advantages & disadvantages. I'm not knocking the territories at all. What i'm trying to get across, is the old territories & the indie scene aren't as different as some people may think.

Kevin Steen in an article on wwe.com talked about how adjusting to the WWE style will actually be easier for him than adjusting to the ROH style. ROH fans want more more more, you have to work faster, you need to be more cutting edge, "same old shit" won't fly forever, etc. His stance was slowing down is easier than speeding up, narrowing your moveset to 3 or 4 recognizable key moves is easier than coming up with new creative spots every show. So from that aspect, I think working the high level indies (high level meaning where the top indie talent ready to take the next step is working, not necessarily "the best" indies, before someone gets offended and this splinters off) is tremendously difficult in terms of staying over, both due to competition from other people who are all national TV worthy, and also satisfying more demanding fans. Two examples of guys who struggled to speed up after working in WWE or so long are Trent Barreta & Curt Hawkins. Hawkins was booed out of PWG. Trent took months to acclimate himself to high level indie style. There were obvious advantages to the old territories. Bigger crowds, for one. Today's guys don't work big rooms unless they go to Japan or Mexico. That's why they work faster these days, because small room wrestling needs to be faster. Not because they "don't know how to work". This is why NXT is vital, even for a guy like Zayn or Steen who are obviously major league quality. Work on arena wrestling, work on presenting yourself for TV. They aren't being taught how to work, I hate when people say that and get "insulted" about guys going to NXT. It's not an insult, it's not retraining, it's getting TV ready.

Let's pick someone at random: Sami Zayn. Zayn paid his dues in Canada and ROH. After that he went to DDT in Japan, and then DGUSA/EVOLVE. So by the time he reaches WWE, he has almost a decade of experience working proper shows with seasoned pros. You are out of touch, my friend. You simply have no idea what's going on these days, because you aren't paying attention. I'm not knocking the territories. That was a great set up to move around and learn. What you don't understand, is that it essentially still exists. The top guys today who end up being signed are all well traveled internationally, have worked tons of styles, and worked with plenty of "seasoned pros". If you bothered to pay attention, you'd maybe gain some appreciation for the talent that is out there. 200 fans in a building doesn't mean the talent in the ring isn't any good.

First of all, i'm not a Chikara fan. Far from it. With that said, i'd take Quack over half the guys you listed, but that's neither here nor there. That's a matter of taste. You picked a bad example of an "indie geek spot moneyyyy", because Quack is (well, was because now he's retired) insanely talented. He's also an odd example of a top indie guy, since he hasn't wrestled in years, but I would expect someone who doesn't bother with contemporary wrestling to choose an example that was fresh & topical in 2004, so fine. Also, the territories essentially still exist, just not in the same way they used to. I'll use Texas as an example since that's where I live. Guys like Carson, Mike Dell, Byron Wilcott, Lance Hoyt, James Claxton, etc are essentially working full time schedules, they are just doing it for different "offices" every night. Carson might face Dell as a face on Thursday, a heel on Friday, team with him on Saturday, and then team against him on Sunday, for four different shows because they all run their own individual storylines. Even just within the NWA promotions, Mike Dell is a babyface mid carder in Houston, a heel junior heavyweight in the top heel stable in San Antonio, and the babyface heavyweight champion in Austin. It's basically the same crew working everywhere, there just isn't a central office anymore. This is the same everywhere. Los Angeles has CWFH, PWG , etc. The Northeast has NYWC, PWS, JCW, NEW, etc. Florida has there promotions, the Midwest has a million places (AAW, AIW, Dreamwave, etc) with the Midwest crew (Matt Cage, Reed Bentley, Shane Hollister, Christian Rose), etc etc etc. The top names in each "territory" are all working 12-20 times per month, against the same crews of guys, just like the old territory days. So Texas still has a "crew", so does Chicago, so does Florida...but you wouldn't know that, because you are stuck in a time warp with your 1981 Continental tapes. And just like the old days, the cream of the crop (Young Bucks, ACH, Johnny Gargano, Ricochet, Drew Gulak, *insert top indie name here*) work nationally and get booked everywhere. Another thing that is similar to the territory days, is that each "territory" now has a distinct style. In Texas, particularly the NWA groups, it's hard hitting traditional Texas wrestling. I go to shows filled with ranchers & bikers & chaw spitting lawmen. They aren't there to see flipz, brother. They're there to see hoss fights and minority heels "get what's comin' to 'em" (Satoshi Kojima nearly caused a riot when he beat Carson in Houston, and the hayseed sitting next to me turned to me and said, "Ahh, I thought that boy had 'em. That god damn Jap!". The northeast uses a lot of older ex-WWE guys and is character driven. Lots of southern indies resemble the old grimy southern territories. The Chicago area is traditional modern indie style. In south Texas along the border, there is a whole lucha crew that works the border towns. That's where ACH came from before he got noticed by the people in Austin. Your top indie names work all of these places and have to adapt to each style, just like 1977. You also sound absurd & crazy out of touch with your "raising fans" nonsense, especially by using Chikara of all places as an example. Chikara has perhaps the most loya brand specific fan base around, and they have "raised" there fans in the precise way that you are implying they haven't. But again, you wouldn't know. You're busy watching Bob Roop matches from 35 years ago, so you don't know what you're talking about. The only difference between the "territories" then & now, is no central office in each region, smaller crowds, and nobody is making any money. The amount of work, the varying styles, the traveling national stars, the same crews working together every night, none of that has changed.