JRGoldman

I'd like to just point out that the guy who is most vocally decrying the list for being mainstream had a list that featured Raven but not any luchador ever.

I was at a wrestling show recently and was looking at the DVDs that a dealer was selling, and he asked me who some of my favorite wrestlers were, in order to demonstrate how he had footage of all the greats available. I said Buddy Rose was a favorite and he looked at me and said "Buddy Rose? Do you mean Dusty RHODES? Buddy didn't have any good matches." I think that about sums up how a lot of people still feel about Buddy. I would say that he has the highest degree of difficulty placing in a poll like this, because people not only have to discover him, but they go in with a preconceived notion that he is a comedy slob and nothing more.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and realize that all of us have left someone off the ballot that others would find sacrilege. The list isn't going to be a perfect representation in anyone's eyes. I think we were diluting ourselves if that's what we thought the end result of this would be. I think it would have been actively less fun if the results were what we thought they would be.

Can someone give me their argument for having Vader over Aja Kong on their list? I understand why Vader is going to finish higher, but I'd love to hear from someone who ranked both and decided that Vader was better.

Grey finished 108th.

Do you really think you could take my team of Kellett, Solar, Goto, Porky and Saint?

I just looked at the reveals for today and I am crushed by Breaks finishing outside the top 50. There are favorites of mine, people I ranked, where I can say "Oh, that person appeals to me and I think they are great, but I understand not liking the style". Like Necro Butcher or someone. Breaks is universal, and I honestly can't imagine liking wrestling of any kind, watching literally a single Jim Breaks match, and not immediately understanding his greatness. It's universal, and I feel completely sure that the only reason he isn't on every ballot is because 80 some odd people couldn't be bothered to go to youtube.

I ranked Han but not Tamura. I don't really care for shoot style. Truthfully, I think the limited amount that Han worked had something to do with me ranking him. Everything I saw him in he looked good. Tamura had things I didn't particularly care for at times. It seemed wrong not to rank Han if I could honestly say that he probably has the highest "good match ratio" of anyone I've ever seen. So the vote wasn't necessarily a statement about who I think is better at the shoot style, but instead a tip of the cap to note that I think Han's career is exceptional in some way, and thus he deserves credit in a project like this.

It seems a bit disingenuous to say that people who don't want to rank Chris Benoit on a Greatest Wrestler Ever poll are somehow against mental health treatment. Obviously rehabilitation is the best course of action, rather than punishment after the fact. I hope that the Benoit situation leads to some people getting the help they need, and in turn leads to lives being bettered or spared. That being said, the toothpaste is out of the tube with Benoit. His actions happened. It's a natural response for people to probe and search for answers and arrive at conclusions other than "he was sick".

I unabashedly love the Dynamic Dudes. There is something so charming about watching them go out there, knowing full well they are going to die a thousand deaths, and still try their best to act like people love it. There is one PPV where they come out and Johnny pulls a kid out of the crowd to play frisbee with him, and the kid is fucking pissed that he has to interact with this doofus. It's amazing. Do you know how shitty you have to be to someone make a kid getting picked out of the crowd to interact with wrestlers unfun? It's glorious. But the best part is, they just keep going and keep trying. It's truly inspiring and admirable in a way. I don't want to turn this in to a "back in the day" type discussion, but I think the Dudes show a clear difference between then and now with wrestling. Ace and Douglas knew they were given garbage, and hated every second of it, but still went out and did their job. Now, any wrestler with a gimmick they don't like has to constantly let the audience know they are in on the joke. I guess in a way, the Dynamic Dudes represent a simpler time for me.

Last night I had the thought that while the influx of voters may have created some results that aren't necessarily representative of the views of many at PWO (Angle's high ranking, for instance), it may end up being sort of a blessing. This list will get sent around, and if it was just all of our favorites, it might get dismissed out of hand. Now that it has some great showings by both the widely accepted "greatest ever" and by some PWO favorites, it might lead to people genuinely looking in to wrestler's they might not have before. Like, I think someone may see this list and check out Virus, or Sangre Chicana, because they are surrounded in ranking by more popular, mainstream choices. That's a potentially really cool happy accident.

I think we are getting dangerously close to using mental illness as a blanket of forgiveness for some truly heinous actions taken by Chris Benoit.

How many more people are left that just have a single number one vote?

I just don't want this to get completely no sold. Tremendous.

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches. Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim. Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff. It's interesting to me that Cesaro's work in NXT/WWE is far superior to his indy work, but Hero's NXT work wasn't nearly as good as his indy work (save for the Regal stuff). Is it harder to have good matches under road agents, time limits, creative restraints? Or is it just not applicable here at all? It's a really interesting discussion, as we have evidence of this going both ways. I remember Matt Sydal/Evan Bourne, whom I had no use for on the indies, was a revelation in WWE, because he was no longer surrounded by a bunch of dudes with slightly more charisma doing the same thing as him in a less aesthetically pleasing fashion. In WWE, he could just go out and have great TV matches where everything he did looked amazing. I think Cesaro is an example of this as well; he is able to make everything he does in ring look tremendous, and he can generate crowd reaction based on his feats of strength and signature spots, but I think it's been clear at various points that he doesn't quite have the skill set to carry a narrative outside the ring the same way he can inside. Hero and Sami Callihan seem to be the opposite side of the coin, in which it's very clear that they were unable or unwilling to adjust. Callihan was probably the victim of someone seeing the Finlay matches and thinking his strength lied in wrestling from underneath. I dont want to venture a guess as to why Hero sputtered, but I think it's clearly they didn't arrive to NXT and magically forget how to wrestle. I do think it's noteworthy that both indie stars who have failed in NXT have undergone bodily transformations over the course of their career. I'm not sure I can point to that as a reason or a cause, but it's an interesting if potentially coincidental connection.

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches. Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim. Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff.

I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

Watch Lucha. Don't use BIGLAV.

Onita was the last person I thought I'd be the high voter on (I had him 18th), and I'm happy he made the top 100, but I really wish now that I had pushed for him a bit harder in his thread. I think some people tend to dismiss the deathmatch style he popularized as "garbage" or by leaning on statements like not all styles are created equal, while ignoring the sheer charisma and importance Onita was able to bring to his matches within that style. They also made sense from a narrative standpoint and escalated in a meaningful, believable way. I think many voters tend to dismiss him because of what they think he spawned and not the work he actually did, which I think stands up as well as anything else from that time frame.

I had Zayn on my ballot, below Hero but just ahead of Low Ki (Ki was 92 and Zayn was 87). I think it's worth noting that Zayn is the only of the Golden Age indie guys to have a pretty robust tag resume as well as a solid singles career. I could see someone considering that in their ranking for Zayn. Of course a lot of his run is on a smaller scale than many other top 100 picks, but not too many people can claim to be Ricky Steamboat and Ricky Morton at various points in their career.

I like Nakamura more, but I can easily see the rationale in putting Tanahashi ahead of him if you've liked that company and style for a significant period of time.

Jingus, can you please clarify the link you are trying to make between Benoit killing his wife and child and Larry Sweeney taking his own life? I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

I decided that although I can watch Benoit matches without much apprehension, I did not feel capable of giving him a ranking that I would feel comfortable with. He would either be too high for me to be emotionally happy with what my list says about me or too low for the quality of work he produced. It was easier for me to just leave him off. In the end I didn't end up feeling my list wasn't representative because of his absence. I'm happy I left him off.

By my count, I have 41 dead soldiers, and five high votes thus far. My entire top 25 is intact, but I have three people gone from 26-30 and 8 people gone from my top 50.

Thinking about this tonight: Is anyone else surprised that Dr. Death hasn't popped up yet? I always got the distinct impression that I was on an increasingly lonely bandwagon. Perhaps the increase in ballots was to his benefit. I hate to throw the phrase around for someone I actively still enjoy, but he seems like a "reputation guy" as much as anyone left.