highflyflow

Case against him, tbh

I also expect Eddie and Ozaki to be very close on my final ballot, and both are all time favorites, but I think Eddie’s peaks gives him the edge for me

Angle is for sure making it, seen him on too many lists. Jericho I wouldn't be shocked if he sneaks on too. Taker, though, is a goner for sure.

The timing of this message is priceless.

I don’t know why, but Loss comparing him to Dusty has always stuck with me, and I think you lay out the reasons why here. I honestly think the comparison is in Dave’s favor…

He has a May 1987 singles with Tully that I think is awesome.

Easiest no-brainer prediction: Joshi makes a major comeback. Joshi was severely shafted in the 2016 poll, only including four women (Aja, Hokuto, Bull & Toyota) and leaving out some of the biggest icons of the scene like Chigusa Nagayo, Devil Masami, Lioness Asuka, Dump Matsumoto, Jaguar Yokota, Mayumi Ozaki etc. There are countless reasons to expect Joshi to be more well represented this time around; the explosion of Stardom's popularity, wrestlers like Kana/Asuka and Io Shirai/IYO SKY making it big in WWE, Grimmas's pushing of Joshi in their blog posts and the Watch Parties in the Discord, Kadaveri's excellent work curating the 80's Joshi set, the GAEA channel uploading new/updated footage regularly, a younger and more diverse voter base more in tune with the style, and maybe even just a change of heart in the minds of previous voters (look no further than Grimmas voting Hokuto #1 or Elliot driving discussion of Dump Matsumoto). I expect to see a majority of the aforementioned icons make the list alongside more contemporary names like Meiko Satomura and (possibly even) Mariko Yoshida. Slightly hotter take: 80s territory guys take a big hit. I've seen people speculate about how far Flair will fall, but personally I'm not too worried about that as I think he'll still finish comfortably in the top ten if not the top 5. Even guys like Lawler and Arn and Windham and Eaton, who I expect won't finish as high as they did in 2016, I don't think have any danger of falling off completely. It's moreso the likes of Ted DiBiase, Dick Murdoch, Sgt. Slaughter, Ron Garvin, Curt Hennig who I could see falling off completely. I think that the 80s sets did these territory guys a lot of good in terms of garnering votes for them, alongside them being a lot of people's sentimental favorites growing up in the 70s and 80s, and with a younger demographic being the primary voters I don't think that same affinity will hold for them. Hottest take? I know most people see the top of this list as a two-man race between Bryan Danielson and Terry Funk, and I agree, but I think #3 is also locked up, and I think it'll be Genichiro Tenryu. I could see Hansen or Kobashi making it close, but I think the narrative has shifted even further in Tenryu's favor over the last decade and people of all camps will rank him highly, including myself.

Unless he's taking a pic with Rob Van Dam, of course!

One of the most obviously great wrestlers I’ve ever seen. As Elliot said, he could practically everything from working mat classics with Billy Robinson and Destroyer to having bloody brawls with the likes of Fritz von Erich, and everything in between. Really love the way he’s able to convey anger in his best moments. In addition to all that he’s a case of longevity, being a really good worker all the way into his 50s.

This isn't a prediction thread, though; this is just what the top of our lists look like.

I like Hangman but he’s nowhere near contention for this list for me. He doesn’t peak nearly as high as his contemporaries (Darby, Moxley, Danielson) and is very opponent dependent in terms of quality output. His series with Swerve Strickland peaked early and was met with rapidly diminishing returns from a quality standpoint; he has awful chemistry with one of the biggest stars in the company in MJF, and it’s led to consistently bad matches between the two where Hangman’s worst instincts are shown, and his passivity towards his opponent’s worst ideas are exposed.

Locks: Mitsuharu Misawa Mayumi Ozaki Mariko Yoshida Meiko Satomura Mick Foley Mark Briscoe Masa Fuchi Strongly Considered: Manami Toyota Mistico Minoru Suzuki

Great seller both during the bumps and after the fact, completely committed to everything he does in either throwing himself into his opponent on offense or taking a beating on defense, adheres to logically consistent match structures maximizing hope spots and making comebacks, great in plunder matches, ultra consistent both on TV and PPV.

Shawn is on the bubble for me. At his best, that 96-early 98 peak, he really is great both as a feisty babyface champion brawling with Mankind and as the most obnoxious heel in the world pinballing around for Undertaker and Bret Hart. His pre-peak singles work is solid to good, if inconsistent, and he could deliver on occasion after his return in 2002. But fuck me, if he didn’t think a match was worth his time he would dog it like nobody’s business during that return run. So many dreadful tv matches…shitty strikes, weak control work, inefficient at drawing sympathy for any reason other than “being Shawn Michaels”, overly hammy selling, etc. Getting outworked by his peers like Benoit, Cena, Matt Hardy, and even Hulk Hogan in tag matches. That’s not even getting into the awful Triple H series…like I said, he did have good work too (Benoit singles and WM three way, Hogan match, the first Taker WM match, the Cena matches, the 2008 Jericho series for the most part), but none of these are truly transcendent in the context of the promotion he was working in like an Eddie/JBL or Cena/Umaga, let alone compared to the entire world at the time. For me, it’s gonna be his tag work in the Rockers that decides his fate, because I love all the Rose/Somers matches I’ve seen, and if their run in AWA, Memphis and WWF holds up, I could see a bottom 20 placement for him despite all his flaws.

Certainly goes with saying, because I’m definitely taking Danielson.

Locks: Kenta Kobashi Kiyoshi Tamura Katsuyori Shibata Strongly Considering/Considered: Kazuo Yamazaki Kazuchika Okada Kenny Omega Kota Ibushi Katsumi Usuda Kana KENTA Ken Patera Kyoko Inoue Kevin Steen Kensuke Sasaki

Would not call Titan one of the best wrestlers in CMLL whatsoever, but aside from that…yeah, the biggest star in the company is usually gonna wrestle the best rudos on the roster, no?

I don’t agree, I think Aja and Hokuto in particular will climb even higher and Devil, Jaguar, Meiko, Chigusa and Ozaki will all make the list at least.

I'd be surprised if he didn't, I've seen people refer to Akiyama as a legitimate GOAT contender in the decade since the last vote in a way that I've never really seen for Taue. They'll be very close on my list, but I'd give Akiyama the edge for his late career consistency (I mean, I think you could argue his title match with Higuchi was last year's MOTY, an impressive feat for a 55-year-old man).

Perhaps not the most conventional comparison between the 5, but is it fair to say that Akiyama is a better matworker than all the Pillars? I think he’s shown a great capacity for it throughout his career and especially in some of his DDT work despite it probably not being the first thing you think of when you think about his case.

Very happy to see this, because Piper really was incredible. A mortal lock for my list, one of the very best ever at conveying uncontrollable fury and a serious edge in both his babyface and heel work.

One of the best wrestlers of the 2000s, full stop. Breaks out in a big way in 2002 and doesn't really let his foot off the gas, and is still really good all the way up to the mid-2010s. Hell, I still find him decently entertaining in the 2020s. Incredible big match worker, so great at milking the most excitement and drama out of a moment to get the crowd roaring. Can throw bombs with the best guys around (Akiyama, Kobashi, Sasaki, Takayama) as well as land some cracking strikes. Great as both homegrown hero defending his territory as well as an invading asskicker. Fun but unmemorable as a Young Lion. I'm leaning towards voting for him overall.

Don't really get the criticism early in this thread that Ki wasn't good at carrying lesser workers; just off his first ROH run I think he was clearly better than the likes of Christopher Daniels and especially Xavier (who he had notable matches with in multiple indies around that time), and had their best matches in the company. I also think of this run in 2004, facing the likes of Mark Briscoe and Jay Lethal, two very good wrestlers at the time but not exactly worldbeaters, and creating fireworks while still keeping the hierarchy of him being a level above them intact.

Locks: Cena Akiyama Jaguar Jumbo Akiyama Lawler Jay Briscoe Liger Jim Breaks Jeff Hardy (vanity 100) Strongly considering: Jack Brisco Jackie Sato

I watched a good chunk of 60s/70s Inoki footage last month and he's someone I'm strongly considering for the back half of my list, easily one of the best workers of the era from what I've seen. Great matworker and a constantly compelling presence, plus the late career peaks in the 80s and one of my favorite Vader matches ever with the 96 Tokyo Dome bout. It's gonna be hard to weigh him at his best with how bored I could be of him watching 1980 footage on the whole.